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Wet vs Dry - The Epic Debate  

post #1 of 106
3/24/11 at 11:48pm
Thread Starter 
Cat's Natural Diet: We know that cats are carnivores and get most of their moisture from their prey in the wild, and have relatively concentrated urine to conserve water. As such, generally they have a somewhat low thirst drive.

So occasionally you might hear some say, "There is nothing WORSE for cats than dry food! They are ALL just loaded with carbs and fillers, little meat, and your cat will be horribly dehydrated! BOOOO!!!"

My Opinion: (and yes I feed wet and dry)
1) True, cats have a lower thirst drive, but water fountains available today are very appealing to kitties and with an enticing and constant source of clean fresh flowing water would drink more than they otherwise would.

2) When feeding dry that also does not mean that you have to feed EXCLUSIVELY dry. A mixed diet, say half and half, equates to minimal extra moisture requirement.

3) Not all dry foods are created equally, nor are all wet. Some wet food even contains sugar IIRC, and there are low carb and quality high animal protein dry recipes available. The best way to compare is on a dry to dry basis (means adjusted for water content). And look at the INGREDIENTS for the TYPE of protein, as protein percents can be half from cheap corn/wheat gluten and soy and poor quality meat-byproducts versus majority wholesome grainfree meat sources.
Quote:
Blue Wilderness Dry
Main ingredients: Deboned Duck, Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Potato Starch, Fish Meal, Chicken Fat, Peas...

On a dry matter basis:
Crude Protein \t44%
Crude Fat \t20%
Crude Fiber \t3.8%

-----
Friskies Lamb and Rice Wet
Main ingredients: meat by-products, chicken, turkey, wheat gluten, lamb, rice, soy flour, corn starch-modified, artificial and natural flavors, salt...

On a dry matter basis:
Crude Protein \t50% (note quality and sources of protein)
Crude Fat \t11%
Crude Fiber \t8.3%

-----
Wellness Core Dry
Main ingredients: Deboned Turkey, Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Salmon Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Chicken Fat...

On a dry matter basis:
Crude Protein \t56%
Crude Fat \t20%
Crude Fiber \t3.3%

------
Purina Chicken Feast Wet
Main ingredients: chicken, liver, wheat gluten, meat by-products, turkey, corn starch-modified, artificial and natural flavors, soy flour, salt...

On a dry matter basis:
Crude Protein \t50% (note quality and sources of protein)
Crude Fat \t11%
Crude Fiber \t8.3%

-----------
Evo Turkey and Chicken Dry
Main Ingredients: Turkey, Chicken Meal, Chicken, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Peas, Eggs, Turkey Meal, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavors...

On a dry matter basis:
Crude Protein \t55%
Crude Fat \t24%
Crude Fiber \t2.2%
Now before you argue, "well, you just compared premium dry to grocery store wet, BOOOOOOOOO" , that was just in response to:
1) the idea that any wet is better than any dry.
2) factoring in that even the most expensive dry foods are actually very affordable.

Evo DRY checking online a 15lb bag comes out to 31,000kcal so around 680 kcal per dollar. 200 kcal a day is plenty for most cats IIRC, so thats what 30cents a day?

Friskies WET feeding guidelines for that variety were one 3oz can per 2.5lbs of body weight per day, so take a 10lb cat and big 24 of 3oz bulk boxes for $12 online it comes out to around $2 a day. Friskies may be exaggerating the needs, so say $1 a day, still more than thrice the price of "expensive" kibble. Obviously its cheaper ingredients, but all those aluminum cans and shipping 80% water weight costs money.

Cliffs Notes:
Feeding exclusively dry is not a great idea. A mixed diet and water fountain provide all the moisture needed though, and even a premium kibble still represents a cost savings and has a practical advantage, especially when used with an autofeeder.

^holds 10lbs of food, can disperse at exact intervals at say 5:30AM and 10PM so kitties don't feel the urge to harass you out of hunger, give kitties a nice consistent schedule they enjoy, and is helpful when away so a sitter only has to visit once a day for wet feeding versus 2-3 times a day which can be expensive and difficult to arrange if relying on friends/neighbors/relatives.
post #2 of 106
3/25/11 at 2:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
1) True, cats have a lower thirst drive, but water fountains available today are very appealing to kitties and with an enticing and constant source of clean fresh flowing water would drink more than they otherwise would.
When I fed wet/dry I also had water fountains (I was one of the first persons who had one when the first cat-it came out here), but my cats still peed significantly less (about half as much !!) than when we switched over to an all wet diet (raw in our case). I could not believe the size of the "pee clumps" in the litterbox at first. So yes, water fountains make cats drink more, but it is enough to make up for the moisture deficit in dry food ? I don't think so and I've never seen more than conjecture from people trying to say otherwise.

I do have this for your perusal;

http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutr...Which_is_reall

Quote:
When fed canned food (80% moisture) with access to drinking water, cats obtain over 90% of their total water intake from the diet, whereas on dry food, 96% of the total water intake is obtained by drinking. The total free water intake (from food and drinking water) decreases when cats are fed dry food only, so that the water to dry matter intake ratio when fed on commercial dry foods varies from 2.0 to 2.8: 1 whereas on canned foods it varies from 3. 0 to 5.7: 1. Thus for any given dry matter intake cats have a higher water turnover on canned than on dry foods. (National Research Council [National Academy of Science] Nutrient Requirements of Cats).

Diet moisture content is related to the observation that cats fed dry food drink more six times more water than cats fed canned food but that much of this water contributes to fecal moisture so that urine volume is lower and urine specific gravity higher in cats fed dry food. The urine concentration of all solutes, including potentially calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. Cats increase voluntary water intake when fed dry food but not in sufficient amounts to fully compensate for the lower moisture content of the food. In a recent study, cats consuming a diet containing 10% moisture with free access to drinking water had an average daily urine volume of 63 milliliters (ml). This volume increased to 112 ml/day when fed a canned diet with a moisture content of 75%. Urine specific gravity was also higher in cats that were fed the low-moisture food. Decreased urine volume may be an important risk factor for the development of urolithiasis in cats. Diets that cause a decrease in total fluid turnover can result in decreased urine volume and increased urine concentration, both of which may contribute to urolithiasis in cats.

Canned diets contain enough water that cats consuming them rarely need to drink. Daily water needs, in milliliters, often are "guesstimated" as equal to the metabolizable energy requirement in kilocalories or approximately 60 ml/kg. Once the diet is consumed, oxidation of nutrients produces an additional 10 to 13 grams of water for each 100 kcal of metabolizable energy. Thus a 4 kg cat consuming a 240 kcal canned diet containing 78% moisture will consume 237 ml or 98% of its daily water need directly from the diet. Thus the cat needs to drink less than 1 oz. of additional water per day whereas a cat consuming a 240 kcal dry diet needs to drink over 7 oz. of water per day. This can be difficult becausecats are not naturally big drinkers. Feeding a canned diet containing 78% moisture virtually guarantees homeostatic control of water balance in the cat.

So the actual studies done on this subject say that in practice it turns out that the total water intake (water in food + drinking water) is lower on dry food.
And one of the important differences is that water in the food is handled differently by the cat's body than water drunk in addition to the food.


Quote:
2) When feeding dry that also does not mean that you have to feed EXCLUSIVELY dry. A mixed diet, say half and half, equates to minimal extra moisture requirement.
I talked to Geert Janssens, professor of animal nutrition at ghent university at a seminar where he presented his research on felines and when I put this argument to him he told me that feeding a bit of wet might actually give the cat's body the idea it does not have to drink as much.
I did not like that either, but there you are

Quote:
3) Not all dry foods are created equally, nor are all wet. Some wet food even contains sugar IIRC, and there are low carb and quality high animal protein dry recipes available. The best way to compare is on a dry to dry basis (means adjusted for water content). And look at the INGREDIENTS for the TYPE of protein, as protein percents can be half from cheap corn/wheat gluten and soy and poor quality meat-byproducts versus majority wholesome grainfree meat sources.

Now before you argue, "well, you just compared premium dry to grocery store wet, BOOOOOOOOO" , that was just in response to:
1) the idea that any wet is better than any dry.
2) factoring in that even the most expensive dry foods are actually very affordable.
You are still trying to make dry look better by excluding better quality canned food. That does nothing to strengthen your arguments

Let me look at it from another angle; a high quality, no vegetable matter canned can be better than any dry food.

Canned from good quality meat is available, and canned does not need any kind of filler to hold the food together, whereas kibble always needs that. Some people are fixated on the whole "no grain" thing and conveniently forget that in stead of grains they are still feeding potato or someting like that, albeit in smaller quantities than in the less than super premium dries. From my perspective the whole "food A has less filler than food B" discussion does not show me that food A is such a good food but that food A is another food with fillers.

And any dry food is still dry and thus incomplete in my book.



Quote:
Cliffs Notes:
Feeding exclusively dry is not a great idea. A mixed diet and water fountain provide all the moisture needed though, and even a premium kibble still represents a cost savings and has a practical advantage, especially when used with an autofeeder.
Please back up your statements that all the moisture needed for a cat can come from dry plus drinking water by proof from a reliable source.

I do agree that the advantages of kibble are cost effectiveness and practicality, those are valid reaons to feed it but not the selling points for me.
I can afford to feed my cats well for about the same price now too.
post #3 of 106
3/25/11 at 2:56am
I know where you're coming from as my cats used to get kibble (they are only on wet food diet exclusively now). I do need to keep high quality kibble in the house for my ferrets though. I'm quite familiar with sorting through dry food ingredients. I regularly have Evo (which I'm weaning off because off P&G), Wellness Core, and Petcurean's Go!Natural in the house for my ferrets in airtight containers. My ferrets have to eat this as raw just does not work for our lifestyle however I have still chosen to stop feeding these high quality foods to my cats.
I decided that no matter what superior nutrition it had--if they were chronically dehydrated, it really didn't matter how great it was if it wasn't being processed out of their bodies.
I have invested in water fountains. They don't care much for them. This is just my individual cat family's personality. So I don't feel they will hydrate themselves.
Secondly, they just didn't know when to stop eating with kibble. Even if I measured it they begged and howled for more like a junkie going through withdrawl. The animal digest it is sprayed with makes it so appealing that it cancels out listening to their natural instinct they are full. And thus all my cats were either chunky or unhappy and feeling starved.
Since I've transitioned to wet food only, they've all healthily lost weight. They don't beg and plead for food. They feel full and even leave food behind on their plate. Their bodies are working like they are supposed to.
It was a process but now I can see it was well worth it and now that I have gotten them over their kibble addiction, I take great pains to make sure they don't have any to get hooked on again. It's particularly hard because again this is what I feed my ferrets. But I make it work because I am so pleased with the change in them.
Not arguing, just my personal experience with my cats.
post #4 of 106
3/25/11 at 4:24am
Thread Starter 
My kitties get wet food daily, no exception, and of 'premium' brands. I specifically explained why I compared to friskies, and have never argued that a quality wet food isn't great... in fact, I have said quite the opposite that cats should all be eating wet food.

My argument is that cats fed a mixed diet with access to attractive water fountains are well hydrated, and that quality kibble is made from excellent protein sources with low carb content.

No offense, but who the heck is the "National Research Council Nutrient Requirements of Cats"? I could call myself the "Global Foundation of Feline Nutritional Studies" without any legal ramifications. When was that published, and where is the source to the study? I've spent several minutes googling it and the organization and only that one site (and mirrors of it) exist. If its even real, it doesn't sound like they were evaluating a mixed wet and quality dry kibble with water fountain arrangement.

Its highly unlikely there will be any real studies for either argument, except those funded by cat food manufacturers, as otherwise there is no money in it.
Quote:
I talked to Geert Janssens, professor of animal nutrition at ghent university at a seminar where he presented his research on felines and when I put this argument to him he told me that feeding a bit of wet might actually give the cat's body the idea it does not have to drink as much.
Of course it would. If I eat four gallons of soup, I'm not going to be very thirsty. Hardly has an impact on the entire day though, especially not on meals at 5AM and 10PM. Janssens isn't here though to converse properly with, so we can't really include his argument by proxy.
post #5 of 106
3/25/11 at 4:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tink80 View Post
Secondly, they just didn't know when to stop eating with kibble. Even if I measured it they begged and howled for more like a junkie going through withdrawl.
Wesley FAR prefers wet food to kibble. As a kitten he had fulltime access to dry kibble for grazing, and wet food three times a day. He'd rarely nibble a bite or two of dry, but wet food he was (and is) ravenous for... with the exception of when I did the bulk 12oz box buy of Wellness on amazon and they lost interest in the flavor. Changing flavors every meal definitely made him excited for wet-crack. In fact, I learned quickly to give smaller portions of wet as he'd eat so fast he'd throw up.

http://www.youtube.com/user/WesleyBu.../5/7o_7M9JGowk
^ sounds pretty hungry for wet food to me heheh!
(I'm standing mixing his wet, thats why he's meowing so much)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tink80 View Post
The animal digest it is sprayed with makes it so appealing that it cancels out listening to their natural instinct they are full.
I don't see animal digest in any of the ingredient lists of any of the kibble varieties I had posted, and it would have to be listed.
post #6 of 106
3/25/11 at 4:42am
These discussions always interest me a lot. It's great so many want to give their cats the best diet.

I've been feeding cats for over 50 years now. I started feeding dry food when it came out in the 1960's. It was such an innovation, you can't imagine. There were no premium foods then. And the canned food available was really disgusting.

I've fed cats, including male cats, on nothing much but kibble their whole long lives - 18+ years. No ill effects. I don't do that now. But at the time, there was really no information easily available. I fed what the vets recommended over the years, and didn't give it much thought. And my cats did well.

Now I feed high quality dry and a little canned. My cats are doing well. One is overweight because he is inclined to steal the others' food. Since I stopped allowing that to happen and restricted his caloric intake, he has been losing weight.

My cats get a measured amount of kibble twice a day and the small canned meal for a third meal. However, when I am away, the petsitter only comes once a day to give them 24 hours worth of food. They get a little extra dry then, but they don't always eat it. This is what I've always done, and my cats do fine.

My cats do not act hungry, cry for food, or wake me to feed them. They are all healthy with no health problems at all, and no special foods except for diet food for the one who is losing. They require no medications or supplements. I don't have fountains, just plenty of bowls of fresh water.

I'm very grateful that my cats are healthy.

Robin
post #7 of 106
3/25/11 at 5:23am
We feed dry and canned each day and raw a few times a week. After finding out males are more prone to UTI's on all dry, I won't do that any more. Rather feed a mix then to put any of my males at risk.
post #8 of 106
3/25/11 at 5:44am
Ducman, I thoroughly understand why you want to prove the diet you're feeding is a great one. And it's very, very hard to shake a lifetime of belief (kibble's been around long enough now that we've all grown up thinking it was "what cats were fed, end of topic").

But "human convenience and cost factors" shouldn't weigh the same as "actually healthy for the cat". And kibble not only isn't healthy, it actively causes harm.

To the arguments that cats have lived long lives on a strictly kibble diet - many cigarette smokers lived long lives, too, but that doesn't mean cigarettes didn't cause many to die, or make many more live out their lives in a sickly fashion.

You absolutely have the right to choose what foods to feed your kitties, and you have no need to justify that diet to anyone. You've also been around the cat forums long enough to know all the many sites that explain, in detail, the problems with kibble, so I won't hit you with that list again.

I respect you, Ducman, for holding fast to your position. No one can say you don't have conviction!

Best regards.

AC

P.S. The NRC is a highly regarded organization affiliated with the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Engineering, and the Institute of Medicine. Here's their site: http://sites.nationalacademies.org/NRC/index.htm.
post #9 of 106
3/25/11 at 9:16am
I think Ducman feels the need to "defend" her cats' diet because she was "attacked" on another post yesterday.
If she is allowed to feed her cats what she deems appropriate, then she shouldn't be looked down upon for choosing to feed her cats a mixed diet.

I do not like the argument that convenience is not a factor in selecting diet. Of course it is. If eating the healthiest foods were just as convenient to me as eating a granola bar stashed in my bag, I may eat healthier. But the truth of the matter is, my diet is a mixed bag of good and bad.

I know what I should be eating, but I don't always do so. Someone posted that if we don't have the time/resources to feed our cats what is best for them, then why bother owning a cat. Well, if I don't have time/resources to feed myself the healthiest diet, should I also not bother with feeding myself and living?

I also don't like the "(kibble) actively causes harm" statement. So a cat is on the street, cold and starving. But hey at least he's not eating kibble and causing himself harm?

I apologize if I sound like I'm attacking AC or anyone else who chooses not to feed kibble. That truly is not my intent. I actually really enjoyed AC's posts on switching to raw and I am probably going to go that route myself. However, just because I think raw/can is generally healthier than dry doesn't mean that dry is going to kill a cat.
post #10 of 106
3/25/11 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
No offense, but who the heck is the "National Research Council Nutrient Requirements of Cats"? I could call myself the "Global Foundation of Feline Nutritional Studies" without any legal ramifications. When was that published, and where is the source to the study? I've spent several minutes googling it and the organization and only that one site (and mirrors of it) exist. If its even real, it doesn't sound like they were evaluating a mixed wet and quality dry kibble with water fountain arrangement.
The NRC publication throughly documents all currently known and understood nutrition needs of cats and dogs and serves as the basis of the AAFCO statndards. In it they include citations for all studies used as the basis of their recommendations.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10668&page=1

It's very expensive but a great source for anyone trying to understand the issue of cat and/or dog nutrition. I think it is as readable as it can be given that in order to adequately explain their recommendations they have to provide a lot of scientific information. I've read it just about cover to cover. The older version (pub 1986) is available on line, free of charge but I don't know how significant the changes are.

I don't think you need to be so touchy about what others say about a dry + wet diet. Everybody is just passing on information they have gleamed from here and there and that they have become convinced represents the "Absolute Truth". Me, I don't believe in an absolute truths.

I feed 100% raw but IMHO it is quite possible to put together a perfectly healthy and nutritious diet with carefully selected wet and dry foods. And I think an all dry, regardless of brand, diet puts a cat at higher risk of some chronic ailments.
post #11 of 106
3/25/11 at 11:15am
Mmm, yeah, I hate the "if you can't feed your cat RIGHT (according to them), you shouldn't have a cat at all" fanatics. So I should let my cats die on the streets or be murdered in a shelter because I can't feed them a raw diet? Nice. So I don't listen to those people. I may get some interesting info from their rantings, but mostly I ignore that kind of thing. I admit to certain fanaticisms myself (anti-declawing, anti-killing in shelters, pro-TNR, etc.) So I get that they care about this, I just don't happen to agree with them .

I do think all cats should get at least some canned food every day. Even if they drink a lot of water, from my own observances I don't think they absorb it as well as the moisture they get from wet food. But even so, canned cat food is about 80% moisture. . .I think mice and rabbits are about 50% moisture. So theoretically, if you fed around (I'll do the exact math later) 60% canned and 40% dry food, it would come to the same moisture content as a cat's natural diet. So I don't believe that feeding some kibble is bad for cats.

And I'm never going to say that someone who feeds their cat kibble only is killing their cat, or is in any way negligent, unless the cat is obviously not doing well with the diet. Cats are complicated. . .whatever works! I have known cats who were fed canned food only their entire lives, and they didn't live any longer or seem any healthier than the cats I've known who ate only kibble.
post #12 of 106
3/25/11 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
Mmm, yeah, I hate the "if you can't feed your cat RIGHT (according to them), you shouldn't have a cat at all" fanatics. So I should let my cats die on the streets or be murdered in a shelter because I can't feed them a raw diet? Nice. So I don't listen to those people. I may get some interesting info from their rantings, but mostly I ignore that kind of thing. I admit to certain fanaticisms myself (anti-declawing, anti-killing in shelters, pro-TNR, etc.) So I get that they care about this, I just don't happen to agree with them .

I do think all cats should get at least some canned food every day. Even if they drink a lot of water, from my own observances I don't think they absorb it as well as the moisture they get from wet food. But even so, canned cat food is about 80% moisture. . .I think mice and rabbits are about 50% moisture. So theoretically, if you fed around (I'll do the exact math later) 60% canned and 40% dry food, it would come to the same moisture content as a cat's natural diet. So I don't believe that feeding some kibble is bad for cats.

And I'm never going to say that someone who feeds their cat kibble only is killing their cat, or is in any way negligent, unless the cat is obviously not doing well with the diet. Cats are complicated. . .whatever works! I have known cats who were fed canned food only their entire lives, and they didn't live any longer or seem any healthier than the cats I've known who ate only kibble.
Yeah, I totally agree with this. I think as pet owners, we do the best we can, but things aren't always perfect. I don't necessarily feed my family a perfect diet, does that make me a bad wife/mom? Of course not. It's the same with our pets, IMO.
post #13 of 106
3/25/11 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
Mmm, yeah, I hate the "if you can't feed your cat RIGHT (according to them), you shouldn't have a cat at all" fanatics. So I should let my cats die on the streets or be murdered in a shelter because I can't feed them a raw diet? Nice. So I don't listen to those people. I may get some interesting info from their rantings, but mostly I ignore that kind of thing. I admit to certain fanaticisms myself (anti-declawing, anti-killing in shelters, pro-TNR, etc.) So I get that they care about this, I just don't happen to agree with them .

I do think all cats should get at least some canned food every day. Even if they drink a lot of water, from my own observances I don't think they absorb it as well as the moisture they get from wet food. But even so, canned cat food is about 80% moisture. . .I think mice and rabbits are about 50% moisture. So theoretically, if you fed around (I'll do the exact math later) 60% canned and 40% dry food, it would come to the same moisture content as a cat's natural diet. So I don't believe that feeding some kibble is bad for cats.

And I'm never going to say that someone who feeds their cat kibble only is killing their cat, or is in any way negligent, unless the cat is obviously not doing well with the diet. Cats are complicated. . .whatever works! I have known cats who were fed canned food only their entire lives, and they didn't live any longer or seem any healthier than the cats I've known who ate only kibble.
Totally agree!
Although theoritically I undertand that wet/raw would be great but not everyone can do everything - like I have not figured raw diet out and with my current schedule, I cannot do that. I do about 80% wet and 20% dry because I do not want Calvin and Hobbes to not be acquainted with dry food in case of an emergency when they have to have dry. Also they do love munching on some dry. But I believe that some wet is essential for the kitties' welfare.

Yes, and I am fanatical about a different issue - if you cannot/ will not take your pets to the vet when they need to do, you should not have them.
post #14 of 106
3/25/11 at 11:58am
Thread Starter 
OK, thanks for the information. Sorry, mood doesn't always translate well over text. I do enjoy debate and mean for a positive discussion no matter the opinions, so I don't mean to sound combative.

My concern is just that I do agree there is a basis in fact regarding grocery store kibbles often being in high in carbs and fillers (corn often a second ingredient) and understand the hydration issues, but believe these anti-kibble statements are becoming greatly exaggerated.

At the very least, I believe by running the numbers and comparing on a dry matter basis and looking at ingredients, we've seen that there are low carb dry foods available w/ no more "fillers" than are in wet to balance urine PH regardless, and with plenty of quality meat protein sources. I believe that hydration concerns on exclusive dry diets are not EXTREME, but merely mild and ist just that by their chronic nature can cause issues in some cats over time, w/ the sheer numbers of kitties on exclusive dry w/o health issues as evidence enough. A mixed diet w/ attractive water fountains logically has to be increasing moisture intake over this.

So my argument is NOT against exclusive wet (well, except some dental concerns raised), or a complete raw diet, but just that some decent kibble is "fine" and is attractive by its flexibility in feeding and considerable cost advantage over even poor quality wet.
post #15 of 106
3/25/11 at 12:16pm
I grew up always having cats, we never fed canned, ever. I never even considered it. Our cats lived a decent amount of time, and pretty much all died of kidney issues around 12-14. They were also all very fat even not being free fed. My cat has eaten kibble for at least 8 years of her life and I would have said she was pretty healthy back then, other than her throwing up several times a week but the changes in her going to all canned/raw have been nothing short of amazing.

Given that most on here seem to accept that cats don't drink enough water on dry, that dry is responsible for many common preventable health issues, I just don't see why you would feed it. Know better, do better. I am sure partial canned is better than none at all, and I'm glad most people realize that and add some in. I do feel if you are using time as an excuse, it's crap, I feed 4 ferrets and the cat raw and it takes me a whopping 5 minutes max to grab food out of the fridge, chop if needed and put it down for them. That's cleaning litter pans as well. 2-3x a day, 10-15 minutes total to attend to my pets diet. Cost, that I can understand, feed what you can afford, but don't add 17 more cats if you can't feed your one a decent diet.
post #16 of 106
3/25/11 at 4:03pm
I fed all of mine dry kibble for many, many years and did it out of convenience to myself.

When the first in my household got ill and was put on medication for the rest of his life, I started to introduce wet into the household. I did this because the cat in question could not be consistently pilled, and the only way to get meds into him was through his wet food.

Since I've made the transition to about 50% wet into their diets, the general age of my cats has increased by a couple of years. Before wet, my oldest cat lived to be 12 (and there were many of them). Since I've added wet, I've had 13, 14, 17 and 18 year olds, and one still going strong at 16. It has also stabilized my boy with chronic bladder issues. He would have died without the added moisture of wet food (he is about 95% wet).

Perhaps its coincidence that the longevity in my household has extended since I've put wet food into their diets. It seems to be working so I continue to feed it.
post #17 of 106
3/25/11 at 4:14pm
Thread Starter 
Cats can't get fat if portion fed on any diet, unless too many calories are provided. So that argument I wouldn't agree with.

What do you do when you're on vacation or out of town for a weekend feeding exclusively raw/wet? One wet meal is simply not enough and even packing enough calories for very active kitties like my two spaz-cats in two meals is pushing it IMO, and I think most would agree. So cost aside, it limits your flexibility for everyday life.

So, I just don't see the evidence that a -mixed- good quality diet w/ luring rushing water fountains out is a health concern. Heck, if really concerned, just water down their wet food a bit extra (I do that anyway with warm water for the second half of their 5oz cans out of the fridge).
post #18 of 106
3/25/11 at 4:41pm
Hi Ducman. To reply to your question of what to do if you are on holiday etc when you are feeding a raw/wet diet. Its simple (i returned from a ten day holiday last week) the family who look after my cat do as i do! They take the raw food that i prepare once a month out of the container that is in the freezer. Each meal is in a seperate zip lock bag. They let it defrost during the day in the fridge, then before serving they warm it up for 5 mins in a bowl of hot tap water. As for the wet food - they open the can(or pouch here in europe). How hard is that????!!!!!!
post #19 of 106
3/25/11 at 5:12pm
I'd have to disagree that chronic dehydration isn't an "extreme" issue, given the large amount of cats suffering from kidney and urinary problems that may well have been caused or worsened by kibble. And obviously people believe and feel it's an issue or you wouldn't be feeding this expensive, inconvenient stuff at all? There's also a very easy way to tell if your cats are drinking enough water, get yourself a refractometer and check!

Also when I'm on vacation, I pay a friend to come by several times a day, the iguana needs fresh veggies in the morning, and the guy's capable of opening a 3oz can or dropping some raw out of a bag into a bowl 2x a day. I have 2 dogs, the cat, 4 ferrets, lizards and saltwater fish tanks so we don't really leave long. Last year we did the cans and this year not sure yet, I know some freeze raw and leave it out to thaw, or use freeze dried, but you can just as easily leave out dry if you like, I don't think a couple days here and there matter much in the long run, it's the daily dehydration I don't want. I worry enough my cat will have issues since she was kibble fed most of her life, and crap food at that. Which may be paranoia, but after losing one insulinomic ferret and knowing it was probably directly caused by us, we knew sugars and fruits weren't good for her, but if it said "ferret" on it, figured it must be ok, and that was two years max of crap kibble and sugary treats before I learned better. So if I can prevent an issue by feeding my animals the best diet possible I will.
post #20 of 106
3/25/11 at 5:56pm
DH and I will be going out of town for 2 days in April and I am hiring an employee from my vet's office who pet sits to come to my house and feed my cats. They will be having more dry than they generally have, they will still get wet food twice a day. It is not going to be cheap but I am willing to pay someone. I have a list of local petsitting companies who are bonded and insured but, for now, I will go with someone I know. Plus, even without the food issue, I would like someone to check in at least once everyday. Since Calvin has a tendency to overeat I will be leaving kibbles in multiple slim cat balls for them.

I will be out of the country twice this year for 2 months or so each time but DH will be there - so they will be home alone all day. Plainning to do the slim cats then, too, for the day. DH will be gone for about 16 of those days and planning to have a petsitter the too.
post #21 of 106
3/25/11 at 6:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingPostal View Post
I'd have to disagree that chronic dehydration isn't an "extreme" issue, given the large amount of cats suffering from kidney and urinary problems that may well have been caused or worsened by kibble.
That is not what was said. What was said that dehydration in cats fed exclusively kibble is not to an extreme extent, not that it isn't an "extreme issues". You're not going to go to a cat fed just kibble, pull on its scruff, and have it not spring right back. It can in some cases be very mild but chronic dehydration (cats are not clones, some drink more some less). More luring attractive water fountains and partial wet diet could bump very mild dehydration up to normal healthy moisture levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingPostal View Post
And obviously people believe and feel it's an issue or you wouldn't be feeding this expensive, inconvenient stuff at all
You are talking in absolutes, and that was the main reason I created the new discussion. :p Step back and please read this thread again. Yes, it is important for cats to stay well hydrated, and wet food can contribute to moisture intake. Amen!!! That does NOT mean that a cat has to eat a bowl of soup at every single meal to get enough hydration for the day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingPostal View Post
There's also a very easy way to tell if your cats are drinking enough water, get yourself a refractometer and check!
Uhmmm, pass.
post #22 of 106
3/25/11 at 6:15pm
This is so sad. Do people not have friends or family that will take your cat in while you are away? People have to PAY for someone to look after their cats? I live in another country from my family but have three sets of people begging to look after Gilbert while i am away. Lucky i suppose....
post #23 of 106
3/25/11 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turks rule! View Post
This is so sad. Do people not have friends or family that will take your cat in while you are away? People have to PAY for someone to look after their cats? I live in another country from my family but have three sets of people begging to look after Gilbert while i am away. Lucky i suppose....
We moved to a new city/ state this past summer and do not many people here, yet. I am a student at a University in a different city, where we lived before (where friends would very willingly help out). Am working on my dissertation from home - so not much of my own social circle here. DH's work is 6 days a week for about 12 hours a day - and so we do not have much of a social life where we can develop enough closeness to ask someone to look after our kitties. We occasionally meet DH's colleagues or friends of friends we are becoming friendly with in the evenings for drinks/ dinners and no one stays in our neighborhood. Plus we do not know how these people will be with our kitties. Most also have similar schedule like my husband's. And I do not want my kitties to stay in someone else's place - they are just so comfortable in their own house. Hobbes, especially, will not deal with such a change well. So yes, we have to pay someone, which is expensive but at least they are doing a job so hopefully will do it professionally and the kitties can stay home. Plus my future petsitter works for our vet, which has an added advantage.
post #24 of 106
3/25/11 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin&I View Post
Totally agree!
Although theoritically I undertand that wet/raw would be great but not everyone can do everything - like I have not figured raw diet out and with my current schedule, I cannot do that. I do about 80% wet and 20% dry because I do not want Calvin and Hobbes to not be acquainted with dry food in case of an emergency when they have to have dry. Also they do love munching on some dry. But I believe that some wet is essential for the kitties' welfare.

Yes, and I am fanatical about a different issue - if you cannot/ will not take your pets to the vet when they need to do, you should not have them.
Agree with you here Calvin. I still feed my cats a small percentage of dry on a daily basis, 20% high quality grain free kibble. about 80% is wet food, again a high quality grain free wet food. I mix my wet foods around as well and they do receive some grains from the brand I feed.

Many, many years ago we fed dry. I didn't know any better and just bought from the grocery store whatever dry was on sale. My cat lived to nineteen years of age with no health issues. That is not to say all cats will have such luck with a completely dry diet. I also had to make some changes to my thinking when years ago two of my male cats developted FLUTD and my vet at the time told me to start them on a canned food!!! That was about fifteen years ago and when I did the change over and started researching cat food diets, my cats never had an issue again. IMO I would never feed a completely dry diet, but nor would I totally give up the small amount of kibble they receive daily as it is a convenience in case I can't make it home and someone has to fill the bowls with a little dry food until I get home.
post #25 of 106
3/25/11 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turks rule! View Post
This is so sad. Do people not have friends or family that will take your cat in while you are away? People have to PAY for someone to look after their cats? I live in another country from my family but have three sets of people begging to look after Gilbert while i am away. Lucky i suppose....
Most cats will be very upset if they are moved from their home to a strange home while their people are away. Cats want to stay home.

I have had good friends look after my cats, many times in the past when I went away. People who love cats, have cats, and love me. However, now I much prefer professional cat sitters - who I now know and trust after numerous trips. These people have lots and lots of experience with cats and they make an effort to check things, look for my cats (because they hide from strangers), check how they are doing in lots of ways, and do so many things that the average person just hasn't a clue about. I feel my cats are much safer with the pet sitter service I use. These people are devoted to the care of animals. They only cost $16 a visit, and I have 5 cats. I only need them to come once a day. It's really not expensive for all they do, the time they spend, the reports they supply, and the peace of mind they offer me. And if they don't do all I want and expect (which hasn't happened yet), I don't have to be mad at a friend, or even lose a friend. I can talk to the owner of the service and get the problem rectified, or even get a different sitter next time, if I needed to.

So, it's not sad at all. It's the smart thing to do.

Robin
post #26 of 106
3/25/11 at 7:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turks rule! View Post
This is so sad. Do people not have friends or family that will take your cat in while you are away? People have to PAY for someone to look after their cats? I live in another country from my family but have three sets of people begging to look after Gilbert while i am away. Lucky i suppose....
IMO its stressful to rehome cats, as its a foreign environment and they have no familiar smells, and don't know where the litterbox is put etc. Plus all my rooms have networked cameras in them, so I feel safer being able to pop on my phone and check on the cats (even has two way audio which is kinda cool heh... kitties must wonder if I'm in the walls).

Houston is a big city, and most people I know live in the suburbs around it. Some in the northeast, some in Katy, some in Sugar Land, etc. So its a 20min drive with no traffic at minimum, up to a couple hours for others, and everyone works. I wouldn't even feel comfortable asking someone to come more than once a day, and I definitely do NOT have anyone begging to take care of my cats.... in fact, I just usually get the "why didn't you get a dog" comment.
post #27 of 106
3/27/11 at 1:10am
I haven't read the entire thread and I don't have nearly as much experience or knowledge as most of you but let me say this. This is only a theory of mine based on my experience, though limited, at the animal hospital where I work as well as the reading which I've done (obviously not as extensive as that of you all).

Kibble is a relatively new invention, created for the convenience of cat and dog owners. According to Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins in her book, "Your Cat..."(can't remember the whole title sorry), she says that cat kibble was modelled after dog kibble which contains meat, grains, veggies, etc, the latter two being ingredients cats don't need. In essence, kibble is like cereal, a quick and easy way to give your pet a meal. All ingredients ostensibly required to nurture a cat all mushed into a small nugget and cooked at high temperatures to make it hard. Yes kibble will keep an animal alive but it's still processed food. Whole, natural foods are always the best way to go. Even canned food is processed but more digestible. Processed foods will just go through the body without really providing the body with whole nutrients. The nutrients have been cooked out. When I started to feed my dog raw, I could not believe the difference in her stools. Not huge mountains! Which to me, means that she is absorbing more real nutrients, so to speak.

Having said that, of course, I would not deny a cat kibble if it was starving. That's not fair to say that if you can't afford to feed canned or raw, then you shouldn't have a cat. There are so many cats that need homes, and well, if the only thing you can do is feed kibble to give cats a good home, then who gives a cat's poop? I do feed my one cat 1 quarter dry and three quarters wet, I can't afford to feed both cats all wet but both my cats are healthy and happy. They won't eat raw or that would be what I'd be feeding them. That or homemade.

What does bother me though is when people come into the clinic and they are filthy rich but feed their pets the worst and cheapest foods, kibble or not. They wouldn't feed crap to their kids why feed their pets, who they have chosen to bring into their homes, crap? I guess part of it could be misinformation or just what they've always done.

My vote would be: real whole foods.
post #28 of 106
3/27/11 at 2:03am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea24 View Post
According to Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins in her book, "Your Cat..."(can't remember the whole title sorry), she says that cat kibble was modelled after dog kibble which contains meat, grains, veggies, etc, the latter two being ingredients cats don't need.
Too high of meat protein content in wet or dry food can cause high urine acidity, so it is often balanced w/ some plant material (rice/potato/etc) which is basic.

The examples listed in the first post of this thread shows that not ALL dry foods have high plant protein content and high carbs, and those posted are in fact quite excellent quality balanced protein sources in a low carb recipes.

Wellness Core Kibble main ingredients: "Deboned Turkey, Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Salmon Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Chicken Fat"

IMO, the Dr is doing what so many do, they look at high carb grocery store kibble with corn as a second ingredient, and look at kitties that are overweight from being free fed 24x7 for years, and then paint ALL kibble as bad with that broad brush.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea24 View Post
All ingredients ostensibly required to nurture a cat all mushed into a small nugget and cooked at high temperatures to make it hard. Yes kibble will keep an animal alive but it's still processed food.
Wet food in a can is processed, and it is also mushed and cooked at very high temperatures with taurine added back in after. Processing is also not inherently bad if done right. Whole wheat bread, a slice of cheese, and glass of wine are not worse than chewing some wheat from a field, squeezing a cow udder to your mouth, and eating some fermented grapes off the ground IMO. Processed canned cheese is horrible for sure, but the 99% of food we eat is processed in some way and usually enhances flavor, texture, and digestibility.
post #29 of 106
3/27/11 at 9:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
Too high of meat protein content in wet or dry food can cause high urine acidity, so it is often balanced w/ some plant material (rice/potato/etc) which is basic.
Huh? That's a new one on me. Can you point me to your information source that cites a pet food manufactor as saying the reason they add plant material to their food is because it is necessary to offset the high acidity of meat protein?

Quote:
The examples listed in the first post of this thread shows that not ALL dry foods have high plant protein content and high carbs, and those posted are in fact quite excellent quality balanced protein sources in a low carb recipes.
Well, in your opinion they are "excellent quality balanced protein sources in a low carb recipes". There are those who would disagree.

Quote:
IMO, the Dr is doing what so many do, they look at high carb grocery store kibble with corn as a second ingredient, and look at kitties that are overweight from being free fed 24x7 for years, and then paint ALL kibble as bad with that broad brush.
Actually if you read the book you would find that her conclusions about dry food are based on many years of practice and her observation that when a cat exhibits some problems, not just wieght related, that switching the cat from an all dry diet to an all wet diet often clears up the problem. She says that switching to a "low carb" dry can help but isn't as effective as an all wet diet.
post #30 of 106
3/27/11 at 12:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
Huh? That's a new one on me. Can you point me to your information source that cites a pet food manufactor as saying the reason they add plant material to their food is because it is necessary to offset the high acidity of meat protein?
This applies to all mammals, including humans. A google search will pull up various sources, and its something to take into account with extreme diets such as atkins and vegans. Either too high or too low a urine PH can cause issues. Generally speaking, acidic urine is subject to stones and basic urine is more hospitable to bacteria. Wellness advertises only their target Urine PH with their recipes (6.1 to 6.6), but I can assure you no one will contest this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
Well, in your opinion they are "excellent quality balanced protein sources in a low carb recipes". There are those who would disagree.
Manufacturers do not list carbs, however, you can look at the ingredients and protein, fat, and fiber and figure it out pretty easily. Those are low carb recipes, its not really subjective. It could be subjective on whether the following ingredients are "good" or "bad", but which of these main ingredients do you believe are poor protein sources and why?

"Deboned Turkey, Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Salmon Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Chicken Fat"
^ all named meats, first four ingredients are all meat, no big allergens, no artificial colors or flavorings or sugars or salts. Ingredients are always listed in order of weight, so its obviously not a giant potato with meat sprinkles, but rather quality meats (Wellness advertises "human grade") with a bit of potato added in.

Also its important to remember that we aren't comparing an ALL dry diet, we're comparing to a MIXED diet, where cats are getting added moisture from more attractive water sources and some wet food. The question is not whether or not cats get MORE moisture or not if you were to feed them a soupy mix every meal, but whether or not they are getting their required daily moisture in a mixed diet or not.
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