FAT cat ALWAYS eating! Not even a YEAR OLD!

Originally Posted by NutroMike

Hi ducman69! It is my understanding that meat meal and chicken meal are different types of protein sources. When using chicken meal something is needed to balance the acid levels and keep the ph level where it is supposed to be. When using chicken meal as a primary protein source, Nutro will add the corn gluten meal as an additional protein source which actually helps balance the ph levels.

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PH levels can be balanced with better plant sources though (rice and potatoes and the like are often used which is less of an allergen for cats), and don't have to make up a major protein replacement for meat from what I've read, that IMO just helps artificially boost the protein % on the package.

Chicken meal is a type of meat meal btw.

It just means that its chicken meat with skin that usually has some amount of bone processed in from rendering. The better the quality, typically the less bone, and thus less ash is present in the processed chicken meal.

When you see "meat meal", that just means that its unidentified various "mystery meat" sources processed into meal. In practice, that means 4D animals which includes various diseased, dying, decayed, and already dead animals... yummy roadkill.

So "meat meal" and "meat byproduct" are definitely not great ingredients, and an instant disqualification for my own pets food.

Mars (who owns Nutro) does not use 4D or roadkill as meat sources…

I've went through where and what is used in past threads, so will not be doing that yet again here. But in short, misc meat is the bits and pieces not used in our processed meats. It's not dieased, it's just not good enough for hot dogs…


Maybe 20+ years ago it happened, but now most pet foods are made by companies that make a lot of human foods and have a lot in stake with their brand names, plus the FDA has tightened regulations.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

Mars (who owns Nutro) does not use 4D or roadkill as meat sources…

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I didn't see meat meal in the Nutro ingredients, and didn't mean to imply Nutro uses 4D animals so sorry if I was vague.

I was just pointing out what meat meal is vs chicken meal, and that current AAFCO standards allow for 4D animal meat under mystery 'meat meal' and 'meat byproduct meal' ingredient definition, so IMO its a red flag. So thats why you'd want "chicken meal" over say "poultry byproduct meal" which would usually mean poor protein sources like necks/feet/intestines of 4D animals (lowest waste from human chicken farming).

Use some logic here… it would be more expensive to seek out 4D animals than to use cast offs from meat processing. Thats what the local plant does. They get their meals from the same processing/packing plant that sells meat to the local grocery store. By product and non-by product meal comes from the same plant. There's more than enough leftovers from human food processing for the millions of tons of petfood made each day. Americans don't eat a lot of meat that other countries/cultures do.

Anymore 4D goes for making other products in the US.

And if anyone is wondering "what do they do with diseased poultry?". Look up composting. Due to fear of spreading disease, especially in recent years with bird flu, west nile, and other pontentially deadly to livestock and humans viruses, they donâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t ship this stuff out for processing. Processing plants that make meals wouldn't want it on their equipment, let alone premises.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

Use some logic here… it would be more expensive to seek out 4D animals than to use cast offs from meat processing.

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They don't have to "seek out" 4D, its natural waste protein available from various sources from human food manufacture that isn't suitable for human consumption and purchased at greatly reduced costs accordingly. Healthy cattle go for a grand or so a head, but a dead/diseased cow I'm sure sells for pennies on the dollar.

Watch season 4 episode 14 of Dirty Jobs. Episode is called animal rendering, and its 4D cows that are "recycled".

First they haul up the long since dead cow cooking under the sun and bloated, bring it to get the hide, then they render the meat and separate the fat which is used for cosmetics, and the meat is used in pet food. Very yuck, and no, it doesn't look hygienic (and I highly doubt that plant processes higher grade meat if you watch the episode), but supposedly the high temps kills any bacteria... and I suppose it is better than waste, but myself and my pets sure aren't going to eat it.

Originally Posted by Dirty Jobs

We know that livestock animals go to a slaughterhouse if we're using them for food. But what happens when a cow or chicken dies from natural causes? Actually, hundreds of thousands of farm animals die of natural causes each year. And you can't just leave an animal carcass lying around to decompose unless you want to attract other animals and carrion birds.

Well, just like everything else these days, we recycle those expired animals. It's true, and it's not pretty.

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That would be for animal digests in cheaper foods and product sent out of the US. Not meal. Rendering doesn't necessarily mean it's ending up as a food product either.
Do you want to know one of the producers of meal? Corgill. Look them up. There's a very high likelihood you eat their meats.

If you want to use Dirty Jobs as your example. Reference the turkey farming episode, where they compost their dead birds. Or the more recent one with the mobile butcher. He dropped some meat that he shouldn't have and it had to go into the "trash" bucket vs send out. And the trash literally was that. Quite a bit of waste going on from that butcher.

My cats eat a combination of wet and dry. If you have a Costco nearby, their Kirkland brand has very good ingredients - no corn and no wheat. They also have a lower calorie version. The best part is the price - less than $16 for 25 lbs.!

Originally Posted by strange_wings

That would be for animal digests in cheaper foods and product sent out of the US. Not meal. Rendering doesn't necessarily mean it's ending up as a food product either.
Do you want to know one of the producers of meal? Corgill. Look them up. There's a very high likelihood you eat their meats.

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Could very well be, but I'm just going by what the FDA/AAFCO literature and online sources were saying for unnamed "meat meal", "meat by-product meal" and "meat and bone meal":
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/care/ren...tscatsdogs.htm
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index....badingredients
http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglossary/g/meatmeal.htm
http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/art...ng-labels.html
etc...

I could be wrong, but everything I've read has advised to caution against unnamed meat sources, by-products, digest, corn, wheat gluten, soy, and artificial coloring. I feel safer recommending named meats w/ most of the protein coming from meat rather than corn.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

I could be wrong, but everything I've read has advised to caution against unnamed meat sources, by-products, digest, corn, wheat gluten, soy, and artificial coloring. I feel safer recommending named meats w/ most of the protein coming from meat rather than corn.

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You're wrong about the 4D part those sites have old information and are bias. You should look up various medical info, the massive amount of bias sites and alternative med sites with old to even harmful info is comparable.
Perpetuating false info does no good. You end up with people who refuse to use the prescribed diets because people take info from some random person online and from those sites as the absolute truth.

By products aren't good in in dry foods, but aren't as bad in wet food. And as pointed out, corn isn't some great evil, it serves it purpose and does balance pH. Ask your vet. Should it make up a large proportion of the food? No. Corn gluten is processed and digestable, though.
I have a cat that can't have chicken, though you don't see me claiming it's terrible for all cats. Like wise I hve one that can't have corn- not all cats have that problem.

Soy, wheat (which is in Nutro foods), and artificial additives are bad.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

I didn't see meat meal in the Nutro ingredients, and didn't mean to imply Nutro uses 4D animals so sorry if I was vague.

I was just pointing out what meat meal is vs chicken meal, and that current AAFCO standards allow for 4D animal meat under mystery 'meat meal' and 'meat byproduct meal' ingredient definition, so IMO its a red flag. So thats why you'd want "chicken meal" over say "poultry byproduct meal" which would usually mean poor protein sources like necks/feet/intestines of 4D animals (lowest waste from human chicken farming).

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Thank you for clarifying Ducman69. I do know what meat meal vs chicken meal is Like you, any "byproduct meal" would be a red flag for me when considering a pet food purchase. Nutro contains no head, feet, intestines etc which you are probably aware of already.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

Use some logic here… it would be more expensive to seek out 4D animals than to use cast offs from meat processing. Thats what the local plant does. They get their meals from the same processing/packing plant that sells meat to the local grocery store. By product and non-by product meal comes from the same plant. There's more than enough leftovers from human food processing for the millions of tons of petfood made each day. Americans don't eat a lot of meat that other countries/cultures do.

Anymore 4D goes for making other products in the US.

And if anyone is wondering "what do they do with diseased poultry?". Look up composting. Due to fear of spreading disease, especially in recent years with bird flu, west nile, and other pontentially deadly to livestock and humans viruses, they donâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t ship this stuff out for processing. Processing plants that make meals wouldn't want it on their equipment, let alone premises.

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Very interesting information strange_wings. I would greatly appreciate it if you could shoot me a private email with a reliable link or 2 on the 4D issue. Or maybe point me to some reading sources. If you have the time that is. Thanks.

Originally Posted by NutroMike

Very interesting information strange_wings. I would greatly appreciate it if you could shoot me a private email with a reliable link or 2 on the 4D issue. Or maybe point me to some reading sources. If you have the time that is. Thanks.

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I don't get my information online. Unlike some I don't rely on that.
As a Nutro employee you have the same capacity as I to learn about how the food is made, what is used, and where it is coming from. There's records of all of this, so it's not that hard to get to it. Look into the Mars side, too, they make more variety of quality (though the same ingredients are used, just in differing amounts).

Funny story. Back when the 2007 recalls were going on one of the high end brands made locally were claiming they didn't have gluten from China in their food. I got the source list and one of the suppliers were Chinese (different company, though). I emailed them this info, got a default reply back, and then they changed their site a day or so later.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

I don't get my information online. Unlike some I don't rely on that.
As a Nutro employee you have the same capacity as I to learn about how the food is made, what is used, and where it is coming from. There's records of all of this, so it's not that hard to get to it. Look into the Mars side, too, they make more variety of quality (though the same ingredients are used, just in differing amounts).

Funny story. Back when the 2007 recalls were going on one of the high end brands made locally were claiming they didn't have gluten from China in their food. I got the source list and one of the suppliers were Chinese (different company, though). I emailed them this info, got a default reply back, and then they changed their site a day or so later.

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I know how the food is made by Nutro. I'm primarily interested in what happens to the "byproduct" meats left over. I'll dig some more and find out what I can.

Funny story on my end - The recall back in 2007 is how I got my job at Nutro. I retired at 48 from my IT career and was looking forward to a quiet life with my dog, 2 cats and my garden. Throw in a little travel and I was happy. I had been following all of the recall information for weeks. So far the Nutro products I was using was not on the list or part of the recall. I was religious about reading any info on the recall I could get my hands on. Like so many other people were during that awful time. About 9 weeks into the recall, I walk into a Petsmart to get my weekly supply of canned cat food. Lo and behold was a yellow sign and empty shelves. I didn't read the sign, all I saw was the word recall. I went ballistic. The poor Petsmart employee wasn't sure what to do with me but luckily a Nutro rep was in the store at the time. He gave me the information on the Nutro recall, it was voluntary and no, I had not been poisoning my cats all this time. After I calmed down the Nutro rep asked me if there was anything else he could help me with. I said, "Yes, I want your job so I know what is really going on". He gave me a phone number to call and I got the job a couple of weeks later. I have not looked back since.

It has been a very rewarding experience for me and I've gained much knowledge. I still have much to learn about the pet food industry but it's something I enjoy very much. I'll have to dig around for the 4D info. That is one aspect of the industry I have not devoted a lot of time to.