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Yet ANOTHER litter box case...

post #1 of 15
2/28/11 at 10:00am
Thread Starter 
I see you guys get posts like this all the time, but my situation seems to be a little different, and no one I've asked has come up with a satisfactory answer or solution, so I thought I'd try this out!

I brought home Charlie is December, as a friend for my other cat, Linus. A lost and found stray, she is four years old...gray....SO cute, I fell in love. About a month after she moved in, I started letting her out of my bedroom where she was isolated for her comfort while adjusting. Weirdly, she started peeing on the hard, clean linoleum floor of the bathroom. Not all the time. Maybe once a day, or once every two days I'd walk in on a small puddle of normal-colored urine. Always in the exact same spot, on the bathroom floor. She pees in the box too. She ALWAYS poos in the box. But she also pees on the floor. The first couple of times I wrote it off as an adjustment problem, cleaned it well, and let it go...I figured maybe she just couldn't find her way back to the litter box in my room.

When it didn't stop, we went to the vet. The vet said she couldn't tell whether or not it was a UTI even after the urinalysis, she said it could be...but maybe not. She gave me the meds for a two-week treatment, we figured we could treat her just in case. While she was on the meds, admittedly, she peed less. Maybe once every 4 or 5 days...but that might have been because I was keeping such a close eye on her, chasing her away from the bathroom every time she wandered in that direction. After the meds were finished, it was business as usual.

Assuming it was a behavior problem after all, we started keeping the bathroom door closed. This worked for about 2 days...and then she started deferring to the living room carpet, near a wall, in one of two corners. Out in the open, anyone could be watching her, she'd pee close to the wall on the carpet. (This isn't spraying, just peeing...I know what that looks like.)

I have tried a lot of things. I moved her box into the bathroom, and she still peed in the spot. I changed her litter three times, including using Catattract to no avail. The box is in a clean, quiet place, uncovered, and the box is new. I have another box in another place far away for my other cat to use. I've tried spraying lemon juice all over the spot; she doesn't care. I've used Feliway plug-ins. I tried containing her to my bedroom for a week, but then she went in a corner in my bedroom instead of her box. Again, not all the time...just once a day or so. Her box gets scooped daily and is very clean, unscented.

Has anyone else had this problem? I'm so frustrated! I feel like she'll never get better and I'm sick of cleaning up cat pee!
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post #2 of 15
2/28/11 at 10:22am
Call the vet real quick, ask them how they collected her urine. If done by catheter then you need to get her back in for another urinalysis, but this time they need to collected it by needle directly from the bladder. This is the best way to get a "clean" sample. In fact you may just consider having her in again and have the urine collected this way regardless of how it was done last time.

That she had improvement with meds shows something must be going on. Was her food ever changed to a urinary script formula?

What are you cleaning the urine up with?
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post #3 of 15
2/28/11 at 10:45am
Thread Starter 
I took your advice and got another vet appointment for today in an hour. I believe it was taken with a needle last time, I think I remember her saying that, because it made me squeemish and I didn't want to watch them do it.

I will ask about the different food...she was on Science Diet at the shelter, and that's what I feed my cats anyway, so her food has never been switched.

I've been cleaning up with a solution I got off the internet that is 50% white vinegar and 50% water for the carpets. For in the bathroom, I've just been using Clorox wipes and paper towels.

She doesn't act sick, she's never gotten better or worse, just consistently the same. She plays. She eats and drinks plenty. She purrs.
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post #4 of 15
2/28/11 at 11:38am
Good luck at the vet.

That you're feeding SD already probably means you won't mind a switch to Hills script should she need it. If that happens, there's a coupon for the C/D for $7 off on their (look up hillspet in google) site. If you can get her to eat wet food, that is by far the best for her. Linus would really benefit from wet food meals, too.

And it's no wonder she's returning to her pee spots, they still smell. You need to get a proper enzyme cleaner to do the job and soak those spots down. You can try Nature's Miracle since it's the most readily available one in stores, or you can try to get some better ones online like NokOut or another ... Anti-icky poo is the name, I think.
Call any local groomers or small pet stores/supply stores and see what they have.

The main issue is that if left untreated long enough a urinary problem then becomes an ingrained behavior and can be harder to stop the peeing outside the box.
How do Linus and Charlie get along? Can you add a couple more litter boxes, or at least one more?
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post #5 of 15
2/28/11 at 12:26pm
I will add that I think this is a medical issue and I am keeping my fingers crossed you find something out additional at the vet today.

Nature's Miracle doesn't work that well, at least for me and for some other's that have used it that I know of. NOK out (online) or Stink Free (Petsmart) are the two that work for me. You might have been attracting your cat back to that spot with the solution you were using.

I am sorry you are dealing with this and it sounds like you love this girl, I hope you can get it resolved soon.
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post #6 of 15
2/28/11 at 7:59pm
Thread Starter 
Well, you were right about the medical issue...I'm glad I took her in. Yet again, when they drew urine, it was abnormal, but there were no crystals. The vet said the needle went in clean, but there was an off amount of debris she doesn't normally see. She also said the pH was low, so it could either be a UTI or a stone (the calc-something kind that needs to be taken out with an operation). It is also possible last time we put her on the meds, it just wasn't for long enough, or not the right kind, but she agreed with you both...the fact that she cut down on romps to the bathroom is definitely fishy. This is far from bad news for me, to be honest...I have faith in my nice Humane Society vets, and I'm glad to know we have a lead on the problem. I'm also kind of glad to know it may not be something I'm doing after all, but she really is feeling sick, and I can hopefully, eventually help her to feel better.

I didn't know about the cleaning! I figured the vinegar stuff would be sufficient for the carpet, and I figured the linoleum is a hard surface and could just be cleaned like normal. I picked up some pet cleaner at CVS, but I'm not sure if it's the right kind, it was just the only kind available in the time I had available. It's Resolve Pet High Traffic foam...I'm guessing though that because it doesn't say 'enzyme cleaner,' it probably isn't.

The vet said the same thing about the wet food. I've been meaning to switch them over for awhile now, they're getting fat. Chuck and Linus get along as well as I could reasonably hope for in the three months we've all been roommates. We went through a long introduction period, and though they still chase each other, now that they are integrated, they parallel play and sleep close (not together...a foot away). I think in six months time, they'll be best friends. Linus is like every black cat I've owned (this might be my superstition, but I've only ever had healthy, happy, perfect-in-every-way black cats), completely resilient to changes in his environment, eats any food, pees in any box, any litter, never been sick, never had problems.

Thank you guys for your kind thoughts and quick responses. I'm so glad there are nice people out there like you guys, ready to help a stranger in a bind!
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post #7 of 15
2/28/11 at 8:10pm
Thread Starter 


Chuck and Linus
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post #8 of 15
2/28/11 at 9:33pm
I'm glad you got her in ASAP. Some wait or insist that it can't be health related at all.

Are they going to due further tests to check for any stones? Was there discussion of script food (wet or/and dry)? I have one on Hill's C/D, wet and dry, and while it reads like a junky food it's kept him healthy. Please keep us updated if you can. I hope all goes well and she gets better.

I doubt the Resolve will do much. I've used some of their cleaners for cleaning up old stuffed toys that can't be washed but have found that it can't even take up basic stains out of carpet very well. If it can't do that I highly doubt they could make anything to deal with urine.

LDG made a good post in another thread a while back about what specifically in urine makes it smell (and smell to animals with sensitive noses). In short it's the urea in it that needs to be properly broken down to be removed. I really wish she had posted a link to where she got that info, it would be easier to just paste it to people.
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post #9 of 15
3/1/11 at 5:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by strange_wings View Post
I'm glad you got her in ASAP. Some wait or insist that it can't be health related at all.

Are they going to due further tests to check for any stones? Was there discussion of script food (wet or/and dry)? I have one on Hill's C/D, wet and dry, and while it reads like a junky food it's kept him healthy. Please keep us updated if you can. I hope all goes well and she gets better.

I doubt the Resolve will do much. I've used some of their cleaners for cleaning up old stuffed toys that can't be washed but have found that it can't even take up basic stains out of carpet very well. If it can't do that I highly doubt they could make anything to deal with urine.

LDG made a good post in another thread a while back about what specifically in urine makes it smell (and smell to animals with sensitive noses). In short it's the urea in it that needs to be properly broken down to be removed. I really wish she had posted a link to where she got that info, it would be easier to just paste it to people.
Here you go, I found it and it is very helpful, thank you LDG

Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post
You are so right about the issue re: active enzymes. That's another reason it's important to buy a quality enzyme cleaner.

But there is a strong, legitimate, and chemically important reason to use enzyme cleaners. AJ posted a link to an article that explained it in general terms, but if anyone's interested, here's more detail on why an enzyme cleaner is so important, and home-made mixtures or other cleaners won't solve the problem long term (at least to a kitty's nose). The solution may work better than some enzyme cleaners like Nature's Miracle - temporarily. (And Kara may not care that it's a temporary fix as hopefully they're selling their home soon). But it works only as long as there isn't an issue with humidity. I will explain.

I have done a lot of research on this issue. Vinegar neutralizes the odor, and hydrogen peroxide is 30% more oxidizing than chlorine - but cat pee is composed of things that REQUIRE enzymes to break down the chemical bonds. Cat pee is composed of:

Urea
Urobilin/Urobilinogin
Uric Acid
Sodium
Other electrolytes
Creatinine
Pheremones
Bacteria - typically 5 different strains.

When cat urine dries, the urea gets broken down by the bacteria. This is what makes it smell like ammonia. As it decomposes further, it releases thiols that make the odor worse. (It is the thiols in skunk spray that make it SO difficult to remove the smell of skunk spray).

The urea and urobilin/urobilogin are not hard to clean. Urea is water soluble, and urobilin is basically the pigment that causes the color. A traditional household or carpet cleaner will deal with these. And this is why hydrogen peroxide and vinegar will appear to be effective at eliminating the problem.

The problem is the uric acid. Uric acid is insoluble and bonds tightly to whatever surface it touches, and the sodium in the urine compounds the problem.

The vinegar and hydrogen peroxide do not - are not chemically capable of - removing the uric acid. It temporarily makes the smell go away, because it does clean up everything else. But when exposed to humidity, the sodium causes the uric acid crystals to reform - and they start to release the smell again. Not always to the human nose, but the cats can smell it.

Because of the uric acid/sodium, cat pee has a half-life of six years. !!!!!!!

So the ONLY thing that will break down the uric acid to PERMANENTLY remove the smell is an enzyme cleaner.

The problem is that not all enzyme cleaners are equally effective. Good ones are expensive. Cheap ones will work - but need to be reapplied over and over (and probably end up costing as much as the expensive enzyme cleaners).

Having dealt with three different males blocking numerous times, and Spooky peeing outside of the box for months, we've used many solutions, cleaners, and enzyme cleaners. Nok Out works. I haven't used Anti-Icky poo, but I understand it is the "same class" of enzyme cleaner.

Of course ANY cleaner needs to be used properly. Unfortunately, Kara was not using the cleaner properly. "Spraying" doesn't work. DOUSING, POURING, and SOAKING are required.

Nok Out: http://www.nokout.com
Anti-Icky Poo: http://www.catfaeries.com
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post #10 of 15
3/1/11 at 5:57pm
A urinalysis is not enough. A urine culture needs to be done. This is when the urine is sent out to a laboratory, and results take several days.

I too have a cat on Hills Prescription c/d. It's the only food that keeps her healthy. And I've tried them all, or most, anyway.

Thank you for adopting an adult cat, they are both beauties!
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post #11 of 15
3/1/11 at 8:39pm
I'm glad that you are beginning to uncover the medical issues with Charlie and are taking actions to get her healthy. Urinary issues can be very hard to uncover, and not all problems are simple infections or crystals. You can encounter stones, or general cystitis also.

My black cat Muddy has chronic bladder issues. His favorite place to pee outside of the box was cold hard surfaces (always a red flag for urinary issues), as I think the coolness felt good against his sore bottom. It took a few urine cultures, x-rays, ultrasound and finally a surgical biopsy to pin point his exact problem - Idiopathic Cystitis, or cystitis or unknown origin. It took close to a year to find the right mix of medications to control it. His bladder would get inflamed, he may or may not form crystals, and because he was in pain, his urethra would go into spasms. He acted like he had an infection, but that was rarely the case. Antibiotics serve as a temporary anti-inflamatory, and if by chance Charlie has cystitis, the antibiotics only provide temporary relief - it decreases swelling for a few weeks but once their effect wears off, they are right back to where they started (sounds like that's what you went thru).

Nok Out really works and you do have to saturate the areas (spritzing is not enough). You mentioned that Cat Attract didn't work for you, but I would try it again once you have her on medication for a while. My vet had the idea to put some cold tiles into a litter box to reattract him to the box. I didn't have to do it, but have that thought for future use if necessary.

I'm sending healing vibes to Charlie!
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post #12 of 15
3/2/11 at 7:11pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone, for all your help.

Day two on drugs for Charlie, and I am the world's worst shover-a-pill-down-the-throater. Poor Charlie. But she hasn't peed out of the box today, which is a good sign. She's on a low-dose of Baytril. I really miss the white liquid stuff that smells like bubble gum, it was so much easier to get her to take. But it didn't fix her, so oh well. Anyone have any pilling tips? I could sure use them. The vet made it look so easy!

If this new medication doesn't work, we'll get a culture done. I am a lowly college student with very little money, so the vet suggested we wait on the culture because it's expensive. I think after three urinalysis', I'll be at or nearing the cost of a culture though, and then I'll probably have to pay for that too, so my brilliant plan has kind of backfired. But it'll happen if it has to happen.

We've switched over to wet food, but I think Charlie is bored of it after the gravy is gone. I may end up making it soupy and heating it up a bit. The vet informed me that if she has a stone, she'll be switched to the special food for the rest of her life.

I read up, and I will order the Nok Out and get this taken care of. Thanks again guys!
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post #13 of 15
3/2/11 at 7:23pm
For pilling, I advise this: use a dot of something soft and wet s/he likes. You can try mayonnaise, yogurt, even a little soft butter or cream cheese. Just a drop will do. Make sure you have everything ready, in a bowl is good. Pill, and spoon with a little mayonnaise (or whatever)

Use the holding position. Kneel on the floor with your feet crossed behind you, hold kitty between your knees facing out. S/he will try to back away and will not be able to.

With cat in holding position (as described above), put a dot of the mayo (or whatever) on kitty's mouth to keep her busy and to get the saliva flowing (so the pill doesn't stick).

While kitty is licking her mouth, hold pill in one hand, pry open mouth with other, poke pill in, toward side of mouth and as far back as you can.

You can let go of her mouth at this point, but keep a hand on her to keep her still while you get another bit of yogurt (or mayo or...) on your finger and put a dot on her nose and mouth. She will lick off the yogurt and swallow, pill and all.

this can work with liquids too.

I make it sound easier than it is, at first. It does take practice. And you have to approach it with confidence, kitty will sense if you are hesitant. But once you master this method you'll be able to pill any cat, any time. I know I can!

Some pills (baytril for instance) are very bad tasting. For those it helps to put the pill into a plain empty gel capsule. Gel caps go down easier too. Check with vet or pharmacist before using capsules, as a capsule may affect the dissolving time and this may be an issue for some meds.

You can order empty gel caps on line or get them from a compounding pharmacy.

ps, the wet treat on nose trick works with ear drops, eye care, anything really,even nail trims! the idea is, 1)she associates the nastiness with something good, and 2) she's so busy licking her nose she forgets about the other stuff.
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post #14 of 15
3/2/11 at 9:00pm
Thread Starter 
I never would have thought of doing it like that, but it makes so much sense! I'll give it a try tomorrow....today I crushed the pill in some food, and she only ate 1/2. Tomorrow it's going down the hatch for sure.
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post #15 of 15
3/3/11 at 4:36pm
Good advice Otto!!! I just use a pill plunger though for pilling, but that is a great idea about the mayo or yogurt first before pilling!!!
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