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Genetic Traits

post #1 of 9
2/27/11 at 8:50pm
Thread Starter 
I was researching one of my dog's pedigree awhile ago and got in contact with someone that has a few dogs with one common ancestor. She sent me pictures of her dogs and I sent her pictures of Fynn and his past pups and the resemblance is uncanny. I showed the pictures to my boyfriend tonight, he thought the dog was Fynn. They only share this one ancestor (and her pedigree), the rest of the pedigrees are completely different. This one trait (in this case, their heads) has been bred in so strong that it comes out in every generation that's produce. I'm trying to find pictures of the dogs further back in that particular pedigree to see where the head type originated so that I can looking into current dogs and see if they throw the head too, but it got me to thinking... I know that this is common in lines of dogs, but is it with cats too? Do breeders linebreed and lock in certain traits to the same extent that it's done in dogs?

I'm including a few pictures to show the head in the dogs, if you have some of cats it would be much appreciated. Genetics fascinate me

Fynn:


Fynn's Son Boo:


The common ancestor:


The ancestor's grand pups:
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post #2 of 9
2/28/11 at 4:49am
No pictures (sorry) but I do know that if a breeder is good and the cats are consistent in type, you can recognize that "type" in pictures and without a name you can say "oh that's a (name of cattery) cat" and sure enough it is.

I know I could do it with the Russian Blues, Cornish Rex and now the Ocicats - I know the look of certain catteries.
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post #3 of 9
2/28/11 at 10:11am
Thread Starter 
Thanks! We call Fynn's facial expression (that all the dogs I posted have) the dumb look, lol. They always look a bit slow, lol, but they're all super smart dogs. We're supposed to go down to Illinois sometimes this year to pick up Boo - his owner (that also bred him) dumped him at the lady's place that I bought Fynn from, she did the same thing with Fynn, his sister and two 8 week old puppies when she bred them together. I told Amanda (Fynn's breeder) that we would take Boo up here so that she couldn't get near him again if she changed her mind, we just have to either find a way to get down to Illinois or get him up here. I'm excited to get him up here, even though he's no use to our breeding program because he's neutered, but it will help a lot to figure out the similarities and what Fynn actually passes on. Sorry for the ramble, lol.

I wasn't sure if cats were line bred, but it makes sense because pretty much any pedigree animal is at some point. I love being able to go to a show and recognize the breeder or lines that that dog has come from. Obviously it's been done in the past to create the breeds.

Another question - there is a trend in dog breeding right now where people are outcrossing like crazy and breeding dogs that are not related in any way. It makes for a very inconsistant dog in terms of breeding, you don't know what traits you're going to get. Is this trend happening in cats too?
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post #4 of 9
2/28/11 at 10:31am
Not with reputable breeders. You don't want them too close but every few generations its best to bring in an "outside" cat so its not too inbred.

When you have newer breeds, the lines can be traced back to the foundation cats - so its more line breeding to establish the type. But you need to outcross to prevent too many bad genetics.
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post #5 of 9
2/28/11 at 10:55am
Thread Starter 
Yes, we do that here too, outcrossing every few generations to check what the dog is producing, it's consistency and to bring in some new blood. I just find it a bit disheartening when you see someone using one of the lines that someone has worked so hard to create in a pet program and just breeding it to whomever is in season at the time... then wonder why they don't get pups that look like that dog.

We've managed to get quite a few good lines in our two dogs, one is mostly working and the other is show. We're going to create our own line of (hopefully) working dogs that will also do well in the show ring. It's going to be a long hard process but we're excited about it.

Sorry to sound a bit dumb with my next question, lol, but is there a concentration on temperament and/or energy levels at all in cat breeding? What I mean is, would a cat be disqualified from it's breeders program if it is not outgoing enough, if it's shy, if it's very lazy or if it is too hyper? Or is this something that just is with cats, as in, unless it's a very aggressive cat it will still be used? For this example, let's just pretend that the cats being considered have perfect conformation and throw perfect kittens in terms of conformation.

Sorry if I'm bothering you with my questions, I guess I just really don't understand what goes into cat breeding like I do with dogs
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post #6 of 9
2/28/11 at 4:50pm
No - because cats don't have to DO anything so all that is immaterial. They just need to fit the standard. But a more outgoing cat will do better in shows then the shy ones.

I do find that males tend to like shows better and are more outgoing in the rings.
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post #7 of 9
2/28/11 at 8:24pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks! I wasn't sure if there were temperament issues with cats in the same sense as there are with dogs, or if it was something that was even considered... although, unfortunately, dog people are focusing more on conformation than temperament

This has all been very interesting for me, I'm sure I'll think of some more questions later
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post #8 of 9
3/1/11 at 4:48am
Temperament is important - you don't want to be putting a bad tempered cat in the ring. Its somewhat genetic. I know a long time ago the first Turkish Angoras really had temperament problems and judges were afraid to handle them. The breeders worked hard to breed better temperament. But I'm talking more of a different in friendly vs shy - not friendly vs hard to handle.

If the judge cannot handle the cat its disqualified.
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post #9 of 9
3/2/11 at 5:48am
There definitely has been line breeding with cat breeding too., some lines have been known for certain looks.
Sometimes too much close breeding trying to quickly get to what was becoming a successful look in the show ring has led to genetic bottlenecks, too much close breeding, too much use of certain popular sires & their descendants, with problems only showing up later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdrock View Post
Sorry to sound a bit dumb with my next question, lol, but is there a concentration on temperament and/or energy levels at all in cat breeding? What I mean is, would a cat be disqualified from it's breeders program if it is not outgoing enough, if it's shy, if it's very lazy or if it is too hyper? Or is this something that just is with cats, as in, unless it's a very aggressive cat it will still be used? For this example, let's just pretend that the cats being considered have perfect conformation and throw perfect kittens in terms of conformation.
re temperament yes there is a focus on temperament, both in just wanting friendly cats, but in some cases where a breed has a particularly distinctive temperament, like the Siamese, there are definitely breeders who take into consideration wanting to preserve that intelligent, vocal, interactive, people-oriented personality that the breed is known for among its fans . For many kitten buyers, especially people experienced with the breed, that temperament IS what they are looking for in a cat.

I think it's great you're aiming at dogs who can do well at both conformation and working.
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