Open mouth, insert foot? Arguing nutrition with a vet...

lsanders

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I post on another online community, one that's not pet-specific, but pets do come up occasionally.

A thread was started by someone who got a new kitten, first-time cat owner and was looking for some basic advice, including what food to feed. A few people chimed in, including me. Another poster said that holistic and all-meat diets are just a fad and lead to malnutrition and that dry food is better for their teeth, and to only worry about wet food if the cat doesn't drink enough and is prone to urinary crystals. She said as long as the cats fur, teeth and feces look ok, whatever you're feeding it is probably okay.

I replied to that comment and said that dry food is not necessarily better for their teeth because dry foods leave more residue on their teeth than they scrape off and most cats don't drink enough water, so most of them should be eating wet food, and that a low-carb diet was good for most cats....basically all stuff that I've learned here on The Cat Site.

Well, that poster replied to me, that she is a veterinary student and she's seen x-rays of animals who eat high-/all-protein diets and their bones are degraded, demineralized, have pathologic fractures. She said the teeth of cats who are fed all wet food have rotten teeth, covered in plaque and bad breath. And that urinary crystals have nothing to do with water consumption, that it's all about pH of the urine and a well-balance dry food is what maintains that.

Here's a direct quote of part of what she said:

"Obesity is caused by a lack of activity from them being domesticated as indoor pets and from no longer expending energy in reproduction as we neuter them. Cats were one of the earliest domesticated species and have no further ties to any ancestor, desert, forest or mountain dwelling because don't forget about all those cats that live in the other 70% of the world. Vegetable protein is extremely poor and lacking in all the essential amino acids that carnivores need. Like I said, cats can not survive on protein alone because even wild cats eat organs, bones and cartilage for essential vitamins and minerals."

I don't think she's totally wrong- not all wet foods are created equal and there probably are ones that cause teeth problems. I never said cats should be on an ALL protein diet, just that they need less carbs than most dry foods have. I guess I'm confused when she seems to separate organ meat from the rest of meat that is in cat foods...I know there's a difference between organ tissue and muscle tissue, but I never said one is better than the other- aren't they both sources of protein? Organ meats would be richer in vitamins and minerals, right? Do ingredient lists on cat foods differentiate between the muscle and organ meats?

Anyway, I know a vet's opinion isn't the be-all-and-end-all just because they're a vet, but it is making me question my interpretation of what I've read here on TCS and on other websites. Should I go eat crow...er, dry cat food?
 

momofmany

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I've read up enough on raw diets to know that organ meat and bones are an important part of that diet for the reasons she stated. There may be others that can chime in here on specifics. I'm no expert in this area.

However, I also know that of all of my cats, the 2 that were the biggest dry food pigs are the ones that had the most problems with their teeth. Pinky in particular has a horrible time with dry food crunchies getting under his gums and causing inflamation. My wet food eaters have the best teeth in the house. Could just be coincidence.
 

nerdrock

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I wonder if what she's getting it has to do, partially, with the fact that animal based proteins are healthier and easier to digest than plant based ones? Otherwise, I don't know why she would have bought vegetable protein.. unless I'm tired and missing something...

I also don't think that obesity is necessarily caused by their domestication and being indoor... I think a lot of it has to do with lack of stimulation, over feeding or feeding a food too high in calories, and just plain laziness or lack of knowledge amongst most owners. Honestly, growing up I had no idea that there were ways to exercise a cat.

It's true that crystals are caused by a PH imbalance, or high/low ph depending on the type of crystals, however, by diluting the urine with water consumption - either through food or regular water intake, it does help. That's exactly why urinary diets are higher in salt - they get thirstier and drink more.

I would be interested in hearing more about the animals with all of the problems that she has seen and finding out what their background is. For example, a cat that was living on the streets and was adopted is more likely to have those problems because of lack of adequate nutrition (maybe) while growing, whereas a cat that has grown up in a home setting is less likely to have the types of encounters to cause injury and will more than likely have adequate nutrition while growing - does that make sense?

Hopefully that made sense, it's late and I'm tired, lol.
 

violet

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Originally posted by lsanders

Well, that poster replied to me that she's a veterinarian student and she's seen x-rays of animals who eat high-/all-protein diets and their bones are degraded, demineralized, have pathologic fractures.
This happens when people feed homemade diets in which the phosphorus in the food is not properly balanced with calcium. Actually, vets see some pretty incredible things, very sick animals, from such diets.

Very basic guidance/info in these two articles:

http://www.knowyourcat.info/info/minerals.htm

http://www.vetinfo.com/symptoms-hype...dism-cats.html

I saved these numbers for myself some years ago. They clearly show the inverse ratio of calcium and phosphorus in chicken, beef, etc. The numbers are quite startling in organ meats.

Chicken (roasted) 3.5 oz calcium 10 mg phosphorus 220 mg
Chicken (fried) (breast, leg, etc) 3 oz 13 mg 218 mg
Turkey 3.5 oz 23 mg 320 mg
Lamb (leg) 3 oz 9 mg 190 mg
Beef (oven cooked roast) 3 oz 7 mg 105 mg
Beef (steak) 3 oz 8 mg 150 mg
Chicken livers 3 med 16 mg 240 mg

In organ meats:

Calf liver 3.5 oz calcium 13 mg phosphorus 537 mg
Beef liver 3.5 oz calcium 8 mg phosphorus 476 mg
 

otto

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First of all, anyone to claim to be a vet on the internet.


However, sadly some vets really do believe a dry diet cleans teeth, though how they can think such a thing is beyond me. Canned diets are not "all protein" they have added in what else the cat needs, so far as research understands what they need, which of course is always changing as research continues.

I feel sorry for anyone who takes their cat to that vet. Does she give her name by any chance?
 

strange_wings

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Originally Posted by otto

First of all, anyone to claim to be a vet on the internet.
I question whether the person really was a vet. There's a reason we don't see them on here posting without being invited even though many are pet owners (and it's not just the work hours) - liability. Any medical professional like that risks getting in trouble should something go wrong and few are stupid enough to risk their license like that.
More likely the person may be a tech or a student.
 
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lsanders

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I just googled her, and it looks like she's the founder of the Facebook page for the Atlantic Veterinary College Class of 2012...so *ding, ding, ding* she's a student.
 
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lsanders

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So, does anyone have any research about dry food and teeth problems?
 

strange_wings

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Originally Posted by lsanders

I just googled her, and it looks like she's the founder of the Facebook page for the Atlantic Veterinary College Class of 2012...so *ding, ding, ding* she's a student.
I dare you to email one of her professors and show them that she's identifying herself as a vet.
Ok, maybe that would be a bit mean spirited, but I would be curious what the effects of that would be.

ETA: You'd have to find studies proving that dry food benefited teeth first. With the exception of some large kibble designed dry food ("dental diets"), it's not been studied for dry foods in general. So there's not really going to be many studieds refuting what was never studied in the first place.
…aside from that, every cat owner that cleans up cat regurgitation can tell you what state that dry food went down in the first place.


Veterinary care and home preventive dental care cannot be replaced by food.
 

auntie crazy

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It looks as though there are two separate issues being addressed - first, the teeth cleaning properties of different foods and second, the composition of a protein-based diet.

I'll take the second one first - if, by her comments, she means that cats cannot be fed a diet of fresh, raw meat alone, she's spot-on correct. They need the whole body of their prey, including the bones and organs.

In fact, because science has yet to identify all of the nutrients, enzymes, etc. within a prey item's body OR how cats synthesize which of those nutrients in what combinations, it's vital that anyone feeding their cats a home-prepared raw diet do the research necessary to understand the different components of such a diet.

However, your comments didn't address this topic - they were in reference to the need cats have for a low-carb diet, in which you are absolutely correct. Prey contains only 3 - 5% carbs; there is no reason to feed cats any more than that and plenty of reasons not to... the least of which is their inability to easily or properly digest carbs and the damage a high-carb diet inflicts upon their digestive systems and overall health.

As to the first question, the only diet proven to be both healthy (i.e. species-appropriate) AND beneficial from a dental health standpoint is one that contains bones, muscles, tendons and sinews that need to be scissored, chomped and otherwise heavily masticated to eat.

See this report: Influence of diet consistency on periodontal disease
in captive carnivores.


And here are the highlights:

Wet foods: "Soft diets tend to produce more bacterial plaque than do firm diets."

Kibble: "Excessively course, granular diets can produce periodontal disease through the action of abrasive overuse of, and by direct traumatic injury to the supporting tissues of the oral cavity."

Frankenprey/Whole Prey: "Foods of firm consistency will increase the number, distribution, and tone of the capillaries in the gingival tissue; which improves the metabolism and vitality of all of the supporting and surrounding structures of the oral cavity."

"The degree of keratinization of the stratified squamous epithelium in the mouth, which affords protection against trauma and other injurious agents, is affected by the frictional qualities of the diet."

"Chewing, by its mechanical action produces a compression and expansion of the periodontal ligament space around the teeth which, in turn, promotes formation of a dense fibrous suspensory structure by increasing both circulation and fibroblastic activity."

"The width of the periodontal ligament, a measure of its health, is directly related to the intensity of the mastication function."

And so on....

- - - - - - - -

I don't think you need to "eat" anything. She way over-reacted to your low-carb statement - showing she didn't really understand it - and she's dead-wrong about kibble not being a cause of UTI's or dental health decay.

AC
 

addiebee

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Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

It looks as though there are two separate issues being addressed - first, the teeth cleaning properties of different foods and second, the composition of a protein-based diet.

I'll take the second one first - if, by her comments, she means that cats cannot be fed a diet of fresh, raw meat alone, she's spot-on correct. They need the whole body of their prey, including the bones and organs.

In fact, because science has yet to identify all of the nutrients, enzymes, etc. within a prey item's body OR how cats synthesize which of those nutrients in what combinations, it's vital that anyone feeding their cats a home-prepared raw diet do the research necessary to understand the different components of such a diet.

However, your comments didn't address this topic - they were in reference to the need cats have for a low-carb diet, in which you are absolutely correct. Prey contains only 3 - 5% carbs; there is no reason to feed cats any more than that and plenty of reasons not to... the least of which is their inability to easily or properly digest carbs and the damage a high-carb diet inflicts upon their digestive systems and overall health.

As to the first question, the only diet proven to be both healthy (i.e. species-appropriate) AND beneficial from a dental health standpoint is one that contains bones, muscles, tendons and sinews that need to be scissored, chomped and otherwise heavily masticated to eat.

See this report: Influence of diet consistency on periodontal disease
in captive carnivores.


And here are the highlights:

Wet foods: "Soft diets tend to produce more bacterial plaque than do firm diets."

Kibble: "Excessively course, granular diets can produce periodontal disease through the action of abrasive overuse of, and by direct traumatic injury to the supporting tissues of the oral cavity."

Frankenprey/Whole Prey: "Foods of firm consistency will increase the number, distribution, and tone of the capillaries in the gingival tissue; which improves the metabolism and vitality of all of the supporting and surrounding structures of the oral cavity."

"The degree of keratinization of the stratified squamous epithelium in the mouth, which affords protection against trauma and other injurious agents, is affected by the frictional qualities of the diet."

"Chewing, by its mechanical action produces a compression and expansion of the periodontal ligament space around the teeth which, in turn, promotes formation of a dense fibrous suspensory structure by increasing both circulation and fibroblastic activity."

"The width of the periodontal ligament, a measure of its health, is directly related to the intensity of the mastication function."

And so on....

- - - - - - - -

I don't think you need to "eat" anything. She way over-reacted to your low-carb statement - showing she didn't really understand it - and she's dead-wrong about kibble not being a cause of UTI's or dental health decay.

AC
Thanks for this, AC!! As SW noted above, if you are feeding cats a commercial diet, daily dental care is crucial!!! Sooo... wet food rots the teeth? Really??? And dry abrades it? Sheesh!
 
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