Another question...Tractor Supply?

Taste of the Wild, 4health, Nutro, and Blue are their better quality dry foods. Selection of wet foods for cats in the stores I've been in have always been lacking.

Given Blue's health, I'd be cautious. He may be better served on a senior food than an all stages. Make no food switches on him without your vet's approval.

The kittens would be fine on any of the four foods I listed provided that the food you pick agrees with them. Some cats get diarrhea from Nutro, some regurgitate TOTW and 4health. I'm sure I could find complaints for Blue on here if I looked. (There's something up with some TOTW lately. Not all current bags are affected, but some people's cats are refusing to eat it or regurgitating after when it wasn't a problem on the bag before)

4Health, Blue Buffalo and Taste of the Wild are all very good foods sold at Tractor Supply. Nutro is nowhere near the quality of these three. These three have no corn, wheat or soy and no menadione and they have fruits and vegetables with the natural vitamins. Nutro has corn and wheat, generic fat, no chelated minerals and menadione, a synthetic form of Vitamin K. Plant protein is also a big percentage of the protein and cats need meat protein, not plant protein.

^Some kitties can't handle all the fruit and veggies in those foods, though, and end up vomiting them right back up. Others do fine on Nutro. ( )
A senior male kittie would do better with some grain and a food that doesn't have 40% (or so) protein in it.

IMO, the thing to remember is not to get too hung up on internet reviews of foods - most times, those aren't coming from anyone who's either a certified feline nutritionist, someone with professional experience in the field, or a health care professional. Suggestions from the net can be useful as a start in looking at foods, but the real key is which food does your kitty thrive on, and like. It could be Friskies, it could be some some exotic brand available only in three stores - it's what works for your cat and that they'll eat. Only you and your vet can make the call on how healthy your cat is - no one on the internet can. And it could be the 'best' food in the world - if kitty doesn't like it, doesn't matter how many laypeople on the internet think it's great. Also, while wet food is great if a cat likes it, some just don't. Again, don't beat yourself up if your kitty only likes kibble and turns his nose up at wet brands - it happens.

Don't let anyone undermine your decisions as long as your cat is doing well on the food.

One thing always to check is the the AAFCO statement of whether a particular food provides complete and balanced nutrition...some foods do not have all the nutrients that, at this point, are known to be necessary to cats.

I also agree wholeheartedly that if a cat has any underlying medical conditions, it's vital to keep the vet in the loop...I know some denigrate vets' nutritional expertise - my opinion - even the newest vet has seen hundreds, if not thousands, of pets and their evaluation shouldn't be tossed out just because they're 'only a vet'.

You do realize that cat digest more in the grain than in the veggie dept and have NO need for any fruit( truly they have little need for anything outside of protein and fat but dry food is a different animal)... Ie no corn ,wheat and soy is marketing mainly ... Except for soy most healthy cats are fine with the other two ... Corn has a few very beneficial uses in a dry cat food

Wheat in a cat with no allergies is fine, Barley which is in many "super premium" foods has the Exact same protein as wheat and thus is a HIGH allergen ...

Nutro started using chelated supplements at least 12 years ago ( Facts are wonderful things) ...

Starch vs grain is a hot debate ... Me ,I prefer grains to a common starch that is Known to cause health issues; like diabetes...

All the foods mentioned have roughly the same carbohydrate load minus Blue s wilderness line... Ie the plant vs animal protein in all of them is roughly the same.....

Darlili and Strange Wings both said it well... Food s come down to what kitty will eat and does well on ...It could be something that ingredient wise many dislike or the most $$$ new gimmick food

Blue with kittens and senior with issues Please talk with your vet.. Pm me if you want some ideas to discuss for %s

I'm not sure it really makes sense to describe it as starch vs. grain, because grains contain starch. Unless you're trying to say vegetable starch vs. grain starch. It's worth noting that any simple carbohydrate, grain or other starch, is more likely to cause diabetes than complex carbs. So I wouldn't lump all grains vs. all other starches together so readily. Refined grains and simple carbs are converted more rapidly to sugar by the body than whole grains or complex carbs. Corn especially is a very high-sugar carbohydrate, and probably one of the more likely grains to cause diabetes. If diabetes is a concern, I'd take a non-grain starch (like a vegetable starch) over corn any day.

I speak from personal experience as someone who has to pay close attention to sugar conversion and content in my own diet due to hypoglycemia (opposite from diabetes in terms of how insulin production is affected, but requires similar dietary restrictions and concerns). Corn is something I have to be very careful with because of how rapidly it spikes blood sugar. Way more so than any whole grain or vegetable starch.

Obviously digestibility is a whole other separate issue, and probably depends on the individual cat (one of my cats does fine with any grains, veggies, etc. while the other cannot digest any grain but can handle small amounts of veggies).

I haven't seen Blue cat food at TSC, and I've been to 3 different stores. I wonder if it's only regionally available? They do have Blue dog food.

I buy TOTW and 4Health at TSC. I mix foods. They also have Diamond Naturals, which I add into the mix, but I buy that at the feed store because it's cheaper there. I think most cats would do well on a mix of TOTW and 4Health. It seems to be a good combination of grain/no grain, high protein/not-so-high protein.

Diamond Naturals Active Cat and 4Health mixed would also be a decent all-around food, I think, and better for those cats who have a hard time with fruits and veggies and stuff (DN is a very simple food, not a lot of fancy additives).

Yes, I was talking to you about talking to the vet...... but I now completely see the issue...Blue wilderness is a very good food... though like Willowy mixing foods is a okay... I did not have the same experience with the DN active ( mine had a poop fest), but it reads solid just shows how cats are individual

Wet food usually is just a what they will eat in the senior years outside specific issues ( which imho hyperthyroid is )...

I suspect when you talk to the vet you may be feeding a Very solid all stage food( ie one closer to a kitten profile)to all of them...

It may be a "demand" thing. If they carry Blue dog, they may be willing to get the Blue cat in, if they know someone wants it.

I feed certain Blue foods but I strongly dislike the local TCS and won't shop there. The Blue they have on the shelf is dusty and outdated, but that's not the only reason why.

The privately owned feed store doesn't carry Blue and they are not good with following up when they offer to look into special ordering in for a customer, even though they advertise that they do it. So I order my Blue online.

Mine can't eat it alone. . .but when it's in a mix they're fine . Actually, there are very few foods they can eat alone, that's why I mix. It's sort of strange when you think about it too hard, LOL. But whatever works, I guess!

Yes, facts are wonderful and if I have made a mistake (I have before) I would appreciate your showing me where. I am only interested in facts and have no agenda except to learn what is best. Here is one of Nutro's cat formulas, please point out the chelated minerals if I am missing them. Corn gluten is the protein part of the corn and is the second ingredient. Soy protein is another plant protein farther down the list. The foods I listed may have some whole grains but they certainly have no isolated plant proteins, so unless you can show me differently, I still say that Nutro has substantially more plant protein. I respectfully disagree about the fruits and vegetables. I believe that cats need the natural vitamins and minerals from fruits and vegetables. I do not like the synthetic vitamin menadione. I somewhat agree about the grain/carbohydrate. I do not think all grains are equal. I only object to the high gluten grains, corn and wheat. I will take whole grain brown rice over white potatoes any day.

Chicken Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Ground Rice, Wheat Flour, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Powdered Cellulose, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Natural Flavors, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Soybean Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Potassium Chloride, Herring Meal, Oat Fiber, Dried Yeast, Calcium Carbonate, Dried Vegetable Pomace (Carrots, Celery, Beets, Parsley, Lettuce, Water Cress, Spinach), Soy Protein Concentrate, Tomato Pomace, Choline Chloride, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Cranberry Pomace, Taurine, Salt, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Inositol, L-Carnitine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Dried Chicory Root, Niacin Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Potassium Iodide, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Beta Carotene, Folic Acid.

I'm not defending Nutro or anything, just helping sort out some of the facts.

On a list of ingredients, in my experience it's rare that they write on the ingredient list that the minerals are chelated. You have to get that info from a website or request it from the manufacturer. They try to pack so much info on those little labels, and "chelated" before each mineral that is just takes up more room. It's absence on a list means nothing. Here's a link to the nutro site - click on the "Easy Absorption of Minerals" button: http://www.thenutrocompany.com/nutri...gredients.aspx

Yes, Corn Gluten Meal is the protein part of the grain. But corn is NOT a "high gluten grain." It IS a high starch grain, and the corn gluten is a byproduct of manufacturing corn starch. But for people with Celiac Disease or anyone eating a gluten-free diet, corn is on the OK TO EAT list. !!!!! To be considered gluten free, something must have less that 20 ppm gluten - so corn can't even be considered a "gluten grain" let alone a high gluten grain. http://www.csaceliacs.org/gluten_grains.php

And the soy protein concentrate is so far down on the list of ingredients, I suspect it's there as a binder.

Compared to most foods out there, Nutro is a healthy choice.

Yes - the problem is that with the corn, rice, wheat, AND soy, it's got a lot of potential allergy triggers in it, and more and more animals seem to be developing some type of sensitivity.

But 4health isn't wheat-free. It's just disguised as cracked pearl barley.

4health Ingredients:
Chicken, chicken meal, cracked pearled barley, egg product, ground rice, powdered cellulose, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), salmon, potatoes, millet, natural chicken flavor, flaxseed, ocean fish meal, sodium bisulfate, potassium chloride, methionine, choline chloride, dried chicory root, taurine, kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract, L-Carnitine, dried fermentation products of Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, zinc proteinate, vitamin E supplement, niacin, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin A supplement, biotin, potassium iodide, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, manganous oxide, sodium selenite, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

Notice that none of the minerals indicates they're chelated. Also interestingly, the 4Health has probiotics - but no prebiotics (the barley is cracked, not whole).

As to the barley, "Nutritionally, hull-less or pearl barley is not too different from wheat in its caloric, protein, vitamin and mineral content." http://wbc.agr.mt.gov/consumers/Nutr...ey_basics.html

From just looking at the list of ingredients, there's no way to say definitively that more of the protein comes from plant protein. You can only surmise based on the fact that ingredients are listed in descending order of weight in the content.

Here are the ingredients in Taste of the Wild:
Chicken meal, peas, sweet potatoes, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), potato protein, roasted venison, smoked salmon, natural flavor, ocean fish meal, methionine, potassium chloride, taurine, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried fermentation products of Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, zinc proteinate, vitamin E supplement, niacin, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin A supplement, biotin, potassium iodide, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin (vitamin B2), pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, manganous oxide, sodium selenite, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

TOTW may be grain free - but it provides a high percentage of protein from peas, certainly (as many grain free foods do).

And last, let's take a look at Blue:

Well, first of all, appealing to our human sense of what's healthy, before I get to the ingredients in the dry food, I come across this: "Healthy Garden Veggies
Whole carrots, sweet potatoes and parsley are three of the nutrient-rich vegetables that your cat will get in every bite of BLUE." Cats do not have digestive ability to process carrots into beta carotene, so carrots in ANY cat food are fiber/filler, period.

Anyway, ingredients in Blue (Healthy Living Chicken & Brown Rice):
Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Whole Ground Barley, Chicken Fat (naturally preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Salmon Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal (natural source of DHA-Docosahexaneoic Acid), Dried Egg, Natural Chicken Flavor, Whole Potatoes, Peas, Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Cranberries, Blueberries, Flaxseed (natural source of Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids), Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Alfalfa Meal, Dried Kelp, Taurine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, L-Carnitine, L-Lysine, Turmeric, Fish Oil (natural source of Omega 3 Fatty Acids), Oil of Rosemary, Beta Carotene, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Niacin (Vitamin B3), d-Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Biotin (Vitamin B7), Folic Acid (Vitamin B9), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Choline Chloride, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate, Salt, Caramel, Potassium Chloride, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium .

Actually, looking at the ingredients of all these foods, I'd have to say it's quite impossible to tell which ones would shake out as being the highest in animal protein vs. plant protein. I think we'd have to contact the manufacturers for a definitive answer.

In the Blue, I highlighted the flax for a reason - the label reads, "Flaxseed (natural source of Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids)."

Yes, in people and dogs, Flax is a natural source of Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids. Cats, however, lack the digestive enzyme D6D (delta 6 desaturase) required to process the ALA / linoleic acid in flaxseed INTO the Omegas. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/513981. Flax is approximately 57% ALA, and cats cannot digest it. I've talked about this issue in other nutrition threads, and it upsets me greatly that flax is marketed as some healthy grain alternative for our cats. I was going to let it go for the purposes of this discussion - but Blue specifically states "a good source of omega...." and that's just wrong and misleading, when it comes to a CAT.

Chelate and Proteinate are the same thing. Sorry I forgot to mention that. All of the better foods (Orijen, Wellness, Blue Buffalo, By Nature are chelated/proteinated and it says so in the ingredient lists. None of the lower quality foods are chelated/proteinated. I absolutely erred in saying that corn is a high gluten grain. Thank you for point that out to me. You absolutely can infer that a substantial portion of the protein is plant protein when the second ingredient is plant protein and three of the four main ingredients are grains. I stand by my statement that a substantial portion of the protein in Nutro comes from plants. All of the lower quality foods use corn gluten to boost the protein percentage with cheap corn. I cannot refute your statement about cats not being able to metabolize carrots, but I know that all of the better foods (Orijen, Wellness, Blue Buffalo, By Nature) contain them and all of the books I have by pet nutritionists and holistic veterinarians (Shawn Messionnier for one) include carrots and many of the recipes I have found on line for cats have them. I concur that fish oil is a much more important source of Omega 3 than flaxseeds. Only fish oil has the all-important docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) and eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA). Note that Alpha-lenolenic acid comprises 2/3 (.2%) of the total Omega 3 fatty acids in Nutro. In the Blue Buffalo, .2% of the .5% total Omega 3 is the all-important DHA. Unfortunately they don't indicate the amount of the equally important EPA.

This isn't a "scholarly article" on carrots, beta carotene and Vitamin A, though those do exist and I'm happy to provide links to them if you like. But PetEducation is a reputable site. Thought you might like the additional information re: cats not being able to convert beta carotene into Vitamin A:

"The main source of Vitamin A is the yellow pigment found in plants. This pigment is called carotene. When fed to dogs, carotene is easily converted by the intestinal cells into the usable Vitamin A. Not so in cats.

Cats have a greatly reduced ability to convert plant pigment (Beta Carotene) to Vitamin A. Because of this, cats must be fed Vitamin A already in the liver storage form as retinyl palmitate." http://www.peteducation.com/article....1+1448&aid=709

But that's not what I said. I said you can't infer that Nutro has a higher % of its protein from plant sources when compared to the other foods. TOTW has peas as its second ingredient.

Actually, they're not: http://www.expert-nutrition.com/chelated-minerals.html

"Beware of the Chelated Pretenders!

A word of caution about chelated minerals, many companies promote the use of hydrolysed proteins, or “proteinates†as their form of mineral chelates. Proteinates are nothing more than minerals that are joined to large proteins. The problem with these large proteins is that they must first be broken down into amino acids and as such they lose the bound mineral making them subject to the same competition as the less expensive mineral salts."

I am trying to be open minded and check my facts. You are really making me work. I have looked everywhere to try to find something to corroborate the above statement. I can find nothing. I find hundreds of sites that contradict it. Sounds to me like that is a site pushing its products and being loose with the facts (the proteins are already broken down). As someone that I have known for a short while once said "facts are wonderful things."

Chelates are organic molecules normally consisting of 2 organic parts with an essential trace mineral occupying a central position and held in place by covalent bonding. Proteinates are a particular type of chelate in which the mineral is chelated with short chain peptides and amino acids derived from hydrolysed proteins.

Metal proteinates (§57.23) are defined as the product resulting from the chelation of a soluble (trace mineral) salt with amino acids and/or partially hydrolyzed protein.

Hydrolyzed protein is protein that has been hydrolyzed or broken down into its component amino acids.

one can begin to appreciate that there are distinct differences between the relative stabilities of metal amino acid chelates and metal proteinates. Given that a metal proteinate is the product resulting from the chelation of a soluble salt with amino acids and/or partially hydrolysed protein, it should be anticipated that for a given metal ion, the complexity of the species distribution curve for the proteinate will be far greater than for the corresponding metal amino acid chelate. If we think of the species distribution curve as being an indicator of relative stability at given pH, and bearing in mind the infinite combinations accruing from a mixture of single amino acids in conjunction with di, tri and even tetrapeptides, then the overall proteinate stability over a wide pH range should in theory be far greater than for a specific metal amino acid chelate.