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Can kitties comit murder?

post #1 of 27
2/4/11 at 7:26pm
Thread Starter 
Well, now that Meeko is back to his 100% health he is also being his 100% bully self. But now, it is getting serious.

Meeko has always had a problem with Monty, but he has started to attack the other kitties too. He's pulled out tufts of fur on all of the other cats, but today he went for blood with Nala. IT was a long and loud fight that ended in Nala needing stitches. I poured a bucket of water on him and he didn't even blink. It was the scariest thing I have ever seen.

We have tried everything with him. Feliway, separation, slow introductions, the vet behaviorlist, I've even taken days off of work at a time just to love on him and play to make sure that he didn't feel emotionally abandoned. The vet has done tests out the ying yang to see if he has a disorder or something that is making him so aggressive to other cats.

The vet gave me two options.

#1 (her sound suggestion) give him to a new home with no cats since he isn't getting along with the other kitties. She thinks he would be happier with another home. But it just doesn't sound right to me.

#2 De-claw him. If he has no claws he can't hurt the others. And when he attacks them they can at least convince him to back off. They have never been able to hurt him. He evidently was a very efficient feral.

The vet really thinks that he's just mean and that if something isn't done he could seriously hurt, injure, maim, or inadvertantly kill one of the kitties. If he did to Clem what he did to Nala he would have slit her throat.

What should I do?
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post #2 of 27
2/4/11 at 7:41pm
I would caution against declawing for fear of the side effects. If he's that aggressive, he won't keep harmlessly pawing (I mean his pawing is harmless after the declaw, not now) at the other cats, he'll full on bite them.
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post #3 of 27
2/4/11 at 7:48pm
Wow, that is a problem.

I don't know what I'd do. Probably try to re-home him, as hard as that is to do, and hard on you.

Or is there any way you can keep him separated in a different part of your house? Do you have a basement you could set up for him. I mean a nice basement.

Really, I don't know. You went to a behaviorist and they couldn't help?

We do have cats at the shelter where I volunteer that we know can't be with other cats. We make that very clear to potential adoptors. And those cats have to stay in cages until they are adopted.

I hope you can get some help figuring this out.

Robin
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post #4 of 27
2/4/11 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisette View Post
Well, now that Meeko is back to his 100% health he is also being his 100% bully self. But now, it is getting serious.

Meeko has always had a problem with Monty, but he has started to attack the other kitties too. He's pulled out tufts of fur on all of the other cats, but today he went for blood with Nala. IT was a long and loud fight that ended in Nala needing stitches. I poured a bucket of water on him and he didn't even blink. It was the scariest thing I have ever seen.

We have tried everything with him. Feliway, separation, slow introductions, the vet behaviorlist, I've even taken days off of work at a time just to love on him and play to make sure that he didn't feel emotionally abandoned. The vet has done tests out the ying yang to see if he has a disorder or something that is making him so aggressive to other cats.

The vet gave me two options.

#1 (her sound suggestion) give him to a new home with no cats since he isn't getting along with the other kitties. She thinks he would be happier with another home. But it just doesn't sound right to me.

#2 De-claw him. If he has no claws he can't hurt the others. And when he attacks them they can at least convince him to back off. They have never been able to hurt him. He evidently was a very efficient feral.

The vet really thinks that he's just mean and that if something isn't done he could seriously hurt, injure, maim, or inadvertantly kill one of the kitties. If he did to Clem what he did to Nala he would have slit her throat.

What should I do?
Have you tried Prozac?
I would change vets. If those are the 2 options, frankly, I would change vets... Declaw is not only a cruel procedure with some bad risks, but don't believe for a minute this is going to stop his aggressive behavior because he has no claws. He will go into biting... big time, then what is the vet going to suggest? Take all his teeth off?
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post #5 of 27
2/4/11 at 7:57pm
Good thought, Carolina. Another vet's opinion, definitely. Isn't there a vet teaching university in Colorado? That may be a place to get help. Another behaviorist may be in order if the last one was ineffective.

And yes, declawing won't help.

Good luck to you and Meeko. That kind of behavior, sadly, can result in a cat being pts. It's sounds like you are really trying to save him. I hope you can.


Robin
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post #6 of 27
2/4/11 at 8:01pm
Wow, quite a predicament. But, I can honestly assure you declawing will destroy this cat emotionally (and it is like amputating all of your fingers to the first digit) and will lead to much worse aggressive tendencies, and probably litterbox problems too. I would try getting some "kitty meds" from an experienced vet who has dealt with very agressive cats in the past and knows how to treat. This could just be a matter of a few weeks on the meds to help this cat become stable. And the dosage would decrease over time to a "maintenance" dose. I don't personally have experience with a severly aggressive cat, but I know from reading about other cats on this site who have had success with the meds. I would try this first before re-homing your cat. Some cats just can't get along with certain types of personalities of other cats. It's like people, you like some people and they become great friends, and other people, well, you just tolerate, or don't associate with at all. Cats don't have that luxury. They have to live with whoever we choose to bring home....... Good Luck
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post #7 of 27
2/4/11 at 8:01pm
I can imagine this horror. The first litter of kittens was Lazlo, Sheldon, Spooky, Tuxedo and Julius. Four of those kitties are now our pets, though it took a year to get them all inside. Tuxedo was "unadoptable," because outside he was an incredibly nasty horrible little cat, and he not only disrupted the entire colony of ferals, he sent two kittens to the hospital needed stitches. He was horrible.

I don't know why or how things worked out the way they did, but he's never been aggressive like that since coming inside. We're just extremely lucky.

If he had been.... given that we have no way to separate them, rehoming him would have been the only option.

But I think if you have a home with rooms, then separating him could be a long term solution. Or at least as long as necessary while you try either prozac and a re-intro when he's stabilized on it (if it seems to be helping) - or while you try to find him a home where he can be an alone kitty.

I'm just so sorry. Such a horrible position to be in. But that vet is nuts. Declawing is not the solution - then he'll really go for the jugular, and with his teeth.

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post #8 of 27
2/4/11 at 8:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bastetservant View Post
Wow, that is a problem.

I don't know what I'd do. Probably try to re-home him, as hard as that is to do, and hard on you.

Or is there any way you can keep him separated in a different part of your house? Do you have a basement you could set up for him. I mean a nice basement.

Really, I don't know. You went to a behaviorist and they couldn't help?

We do have cats at the shelter where I volunteer that we know can't be with other cats. We make that very clear to potential adoptors. And those cats have to stay in cages until they are adopted.

I hope you can get some help figuring this out.

Robin
Yea, you would figure that if a cat is aggressive that the pet shop wouldn't let him go with another adoption. When I adopted Monty, Meeko was in the cell next to him. Petco (where we got him from) told us that he was going to be put down and that he was wonderful with other cats. That's why we ended up adopting them together. Come to find, neither statement was true.... I do hate Petco. They wern't very supportive when we brought this up to them. The lady we spoke to seemed more annoyed then concerned and told us that we should "take him to the pound or something" If we didn't like out adopted cat...

As for the vet, I should have said "vets" I talked to the one that I am currently with and the old hospital I used to take them too. The hospital told us that declawing was an option... I figured that he would just start biting, but thought that I would ask you guys too.... So re-homing? After all we have been thru with him it feels wrong. The new vet is the one that did his tests and told is that he was healthy, but just wasn't good for a multi-cat house...

Carolina, I was pretty sure that when you said prozac you were joking.... Were you? I never considered drugs an option... Couldn't that have negative effects?
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post #9 of 27
2/4/11 at 8:14pm
She wasn't joking. Working with something to adjust his brain chemicals which are clearly "off" here is definitely an option, and may be what he needs. You've been through so much and are committed to him - and how hard is it going to be to find a home for a not-kitten aggressive cat that needs to be an only cat?

No, drugs are definitely an option that should be considered.
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post #10 of 27
2/4/11 at 8:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisette View Post
Carolina, I was pretty sure that when you said prozac you were joking.... Were you? I never considered drugs an option... Couldn't that have negative effects?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post
She wasn't joking. Working with something to adjust his brain chemicals which are clearly "off" here is definitely an option, and may be what he needs. You've been through so much and are committed to him - and how hard is it going to be to find a home for a not-kitten aggressive cat that needs to be an only cat?

No, drugs are definitely an option that should be considered.

Prozac is only one of the drugs used for cats who show serious aggression problems, and it works... Drugs have been used quite successfully for it. Some have more side effects than others, some of them very little... But think about it, If you re-home him, he can end up in a shelter and be put to sleep... who knows what can happen... The best scenario for him is to have this worked out with you IMHO; so while there can be some side effects, they will be better than the alternative IMHO...
I would however, be honestly concerned in working with you you vet, since this was not an option that was ever offered, and instead she went directly into re-homing or declawing.... Maybe have a talk with your vet and say you want to try a medication, and if she refuses, go look for another vet... Or, if I were you, I would just go elsewhere right off the bat... Don't know, I felt funny about her "solutions" for you
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post #11 of 27
2/4/11 at 8:56pm
Wow I don't know what to tell you. Trying another vet for a second opinion. They might find there is something wrong, which is what's making him act like that. Maybe also try the Prozac. It didn't work for Lynxx, but he wasn't attacking the kittens, and he was sick.
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post #12 of 27
2/5/11 at 11:40am
He's only aggressive towards other cats though right? My sister's boxer will let you do absolutely anything to him and is totally harmless with people. But if he saw a cat or another dog he didn't know, he'd go into kill mode. I don't think he needed drugs, and he's not sick, he just has a strong instinct to defend his turf and prey response. I don't see why the same couldn't apply to a cat.

The declawing doesn't really make sense, as it doesn't address aggression, and REAL cat fight damage is done really with the back claws kicking and biting anyhow if you've ever seen toms go at it. Thats really more for cats who are destructive towards furnishings that don't take to training/redirection.

The second vet opinion isn't a bad idea, but I would think he might just be one of those cats who likes to be king of his castle by himself.
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post #13 of 27
2/5/11 at 12:01pm
Before you think about drugs to alter him- would you be able to take him to a feline specialist? Sometimes, when they are that aggressive it isn't a behavior issue it can be health-related. If they have been exposed to extensive vet visits, overnight stays etc- this can add tremendous stress on a cat and stress causes health issues. I don't know where in Colorado you are, but there are several feline specialists in Colorado. This website allows you to search by your state. If they aren't close to you call them anyway and ask if they know of a vet in your area that CAN help you. I specialize in working with aggressive cats and kittens- but I am in Oregon.

Good luck-

http://clubs.ncsu.edu/scaafp/feline_hospitals.htm
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post #14 of 27
2/5/11 at 12:03pm
As somebody with one of those "killer cats", I think trying to find him a home where he's an only cat is the best long-term solution. Declawing won't work because it won't stop him from attacking and biting.

We've had other cats here, including our resident cat when we brought Jamie in as a kitten, and currently have a "part-timer" who's here for meals and quality time but sleeps at the neighbor's. Separating the cats completely usually prevents injuries (accidents can and do happen) but doesn't really relieve the stress of having other cats in close proximity, just as drugs might take the edge off but won't turn a cat that likes being an only cat into a happy clowder member.
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post #15 of 27
2/5/11 at 12:50pm
Tricia, good point.

I think the best bet is to locate a specialist if possible, and determine if this is a health problem, whether or not Meeko should be medicated (whether prozac or something to treat whatever the health issue is if there is one), or if this is a behavior "problem" and kitty really ought to be rehomed.

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post #16 of 27
2/5/11 at 2:00pm
Thread Starter 
Well, we done some talking to the new vet. He wants to see Meeko and get some video if posible of his interaction with the others.

He's very willing to try meds if possable, but wants to see if it is just his personality. He feels like I do about rehoming him. To me it's almost not an option. I cant have him hurting the others, but I can't see him not in our home. He's my big orange baby. He's the floppy love bug that says "MeOOOOM!" In the morning when I come downstairs. (which to me is Goodmorning mom)

Also, It would bother me a lot to not know for sure if he was taken care of. What if something comed up with his health and they don't respond? What if they get frustrated and put him outside? Or get him PTS? I dunno. He's a good boy. If he goes anywhere I will have to be sure that I know the people well enough to trust them with him. And hopefully they will be good kitty parents, but as of right now I can't accept that as an option.

Keep you posted.
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post #17 of 27
2/5/11 at 2:18pm
Hi, I am so sorry you are going through this, I had similar with my old cat Harvey, I tried everything but the difference was he was aggressive towards us aswell as the other kitties. I ended up having to rehome him where he is very happy as his own person, I think some kitties are just meant to rule the roost and be their own person. I didn't want to try medication as it wouldn't have been "Harvey" anymore, I wanted to find him somewhere where he could be himself. It hurt me so much and I still miss him alot but I know that I did the right thing, my other cats are so much happier. x
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post #18 of 27
2/5/11 at 2:19pm
There's another on here, white cat lover, that I either hopes chimes in or that you should just PM. She has a kitty that has been medicated (not sure if she is currently) because of issues including aggression to other cats. One of the things with her cat is that she hates other female cats. She resorted to separating the house, via doors, to a section for that cat and a few she gets along with and the other part for the other cats.
I don't know if you have space to consider separating if it comes to that, but it's one option. A basic wooden screen door covered with hardware cloth (wire mesh) would make a suitable partition.

Depending on your home, and backyard, maybe to increase space you could add an enclosure or cat proof fence the backyard. Or as a last resort let him have a room plus outside (again, kitty proofed - not running loose).

Just a couple of ideas if you don't want to rehome him.
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post #19 of 27
2/5/11 at 2:39pm
I was thinking of drugs too...and soft paws. I don't declaw my cats, but I do use soft paws. They can't scratch furniture, they can't scratch the kids, and they can't hurt the other cats (not that they try, but kitties still play fight).

Don't they make "prozac" for cats? I think that is what it treats - aggression and seperation anxiety?
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post #20 of 27
2/5/11 at 4:07pm
My Ziggy is on prozac (down to half doses) due to inappropriate urination secondary to stress that was happening in the household. It works wonders for that and can be equally as effective for aggression.

I also agree that your current vet hasn't been very helpful. I hope you find a solution very soon, and sorry your other kitty got injured.

Cally
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post #21 of 27
2/5/11 at 8:45pm
Thread Starter 
Interesting note... Meeko is part Bengal. The vet got some blood tests back from earlier last week. We wanted to know as much about him as we could to try to help fix his aggression. The vet found it really intersting and is really observing him and trying to do the right thing by Meeko.

He ran some blood tests today to see if he can be on a certain allergy med. we are looking into procac for Meeko. He's giving us some info to help us with our decision. He doesn't want us to have to get a new home for Meekers (especially because of his age and what we have already been thru with him)

However, We did get a little blessing. Karen, the assistant ADORES my Meekers and her kitty passed a few months ago. If things don't work out I get the strong impression that she would love to take him home.

lol, I wanna cry. I'm very torn between trying to figure out if I'm feeling a "whats best for him" vibe or a "I love my cat and am being selfish" feeling. I don't know whats best. I Love Meeko dearly. I don't want to let him go, but seeing him love on the assistant really makes me wonder if there isn't a better home for my boy out there.

I have NEVER given a cat up before. It's hard for me to see this in an unbiased light. I don't trust anyone to take him unless I KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that they wont get frustrated and take him to the pound. If i craigslisted him or anything like that I would be constantly afraid that he would be let loose or sent to the pound and get put to sleep. Guys, I can't take that.

If prozac doesn't work (and I am very sketchy about that because it is WW3 to get him to take a pill of any sort. If I do decide that it is in his best interests to rehome, Would it be wrong or to over the top for me to insist that the person that adopts him signs a contract stating that if things dont work out that they will bring him back to me? I don't want to be a crazy cat lady, but I cant stand the thought of something happening to him. When I adopted my boys I promised them that I would love them and look after them. That I would do everything that I could in there best interests. (yea, it's dumb. I made a promise to a kitty that can't understand a thing I say. But I think it was a promise to myself as well. I don't take animal ownership lightly. Meeko (and all other creatures) deserve the best. I just really don't know whatsright guys..... Thank you all for your honest feedback. After my school work tonight I'm going to write to whitte cat lover (thank you for the reference!!!)

Sorry this is so darn long winded. I just really am very lost in this.
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post #22 of 27
2/5/11 at 8:53pm
It sounds like Karen would be an ideal choice if things don't work out. Since she's a vet assistant and has seen what you are going through with your difficult decision firsthand, she would probably be willing to sign a contract to return Meeko to you
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post #23 of 27
2/6/11 at 3:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisette View Post
Interesting note... Meeko is part Bengal. The vet got some blood tests back from earlier last week. We wanted to know as much about him as we could to try to help fix his aggression. The vet found it really intersting and is really observing him and trying to do the right thing by Meeko.

He ran some blood tests today to see if he can be on a certain allergy med. we are looking into procac for Meeko. He's giving us some info to help us with our decision. He doesn't want us to have to get a new home for Meekers (especially because of his age and what we have already been thru with him)

However, We did get a little blessing. Karen, the assistant ADORES my Meekers and her kitty passed a few months ago. If things don't work out I get the strong impression that she would love to take him home.

lol, I wanna cry. I'm very torn between trying to figure out if I'm feeling a "whats best for him" vibe or a "I love my cat and am being selfish" feeling. I don't know whats best. I Love Meeko dearly. I don't want to let him go, but seeing him love on the assistant really makes me wonder if there isn't a better home for my boy out there.

I have NEVER given a cat up before. It's hard for me to see this in an unbiased light. I don't trust anyone to take him unless I KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that they wont get frustrated and take him to the pound. If i craigslisted him or anything like that I would be constantly afraid that he would be let loose or sent to the pound and get put to sleep. Guys, I can't take that.

If prozac doesn't work (and I am very sketchy about that because it is WW3 to get him to take a pill of any sort. If I do decide that it is in his best interests to rehome, Would it be wrong or to over the top for me to insist that the person that adopts him signs a contract stating that if things dont work out that they will bring him back to me? I don't want to be a crazy cat lady, but I cant stand the thought of something happening to him. When I adopted my boys I promised them that I would love them and look after them. That I would do everything that I could in there best interests. (yea, it's dumb. I made a promise to a kitty that can't understand a thing I say. But I think it was a promise to myself as well. I don't take animal ownership lightly. Meeko (and all other creatures) deserve the best. I just really don't know whatsright guys..... Thank you all for your honest feedback. After my school work tonight I'm going to write to whitte cat lover (thank you for the reference!!!)

Sorry this is so darn long winded. I just really am very lost in this.
Hun, you're not giving up, you're giving him a chance, I went through the exact same thing with Harvey and people on here were so good to me and Harvey is now so much happier and a completely different cat and my other kitties are also so much happier. xx
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post #24 of 27
2/6/11 at 3:40am
I would definitely speak to Karen, i think some cats just have to be only cats and it isn't fair to put them on medication just to make them fit in with us. You are not giving up on him, you have saved him from whatever (sorry, i dont know his background), tried loads of options, but I think finding him a home as an only cat is the best thing for him - and I think you are right to have a contract drawn up, and keep in contact with them, so you are on hand if they have any initial teething issues, as you know him so well.
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post #25 of 27
2/6/11 at 7:16am
Odd question, but are you 100% sure she doesn't have another cat or other animals?
With the way people will abandon animals they can't pay for and often how litters and strays end up at a vet clinic, many techs and assistants have animals, sometimes several.
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post #26 of 27
2/6/11 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by strange_wings View Post
Odd question, but are you 100% sure she doesn't have another cat or other animals?
With the way people will abandon animals they can't pay for and often how litters and strays end up at a vet clinic, many techs and assistants have animals, sometimes several.
Other pets might not be a problem if she does. Jamie and Miezi both can't stand other cats, but are good with dogs and rabbits. In Jamie's case, a ferret and a fox have been perfectly acceptable.
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post #27 of 27
2/6/11 at 11:57am
Every adoption contract we used has that clause in it.
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