Tummy troubles and nutrition

I know you're asking in the nutrition forum, but our experience with round worm and Shelly's colitis could explain these symptoms. Was Calvin a rescue cat? If so, if his parasitic load is not large, it could cause problems but not show up in a fecal. And one treatment will only treat that round of worms. The treatments only kill the adult worms, and the life cycle of the worms is such that at a minimum a second round of treatment needs to be applied (and sometimes a 3rd) after three weeks (each treatment needs to be spaced by three weeks). Our vet always had us go with a 10-day treatment of Panacur, though now we just use the topical, Revolution. But two cycle treatments with Revolution or Profender might not be a bad idea - just to eliminate round worm as the potential culprit.

As it turns out, we had a treatment resistant strain of round worm, and the cats also needed to be treated with Strongid-T in addition to the Panacur. On top of that, Shelly had colitis. We had to put him on a food for sensitive tummies. Back then, there weren't so many premium brands available, and we just went with whatever the Hill's Science Diet prescription stuff was. We eventually needed to switch him to the prescription c/d, because they ate only dry food (they hated wet food - it was a long process getting them to eat it) - and ALL of the boys (at the time) developed problems with crystals within their first 2 years. Thankfully, the c/d agreed with Shelly's tummy.

It could also be that Calvin's allergic to something in the food. Doing an elimination diet is a PIA, and if he needs variety, that can be a real challenge. But instead of increasing his variety right now, you might want to work on eliminating potential allergy triggers - and find variety that is based in the same ingredients, and stick with one series of foods at a time for six weeks or so to see how he reacts.

I really don't know what is causing Calvin's problems, but I'll just share my experience.

When my girls were kittens, they had really stinky, softer poops. If I recall correctly, I fed them Wellness kitten at the beginning. Once I switched them over to Orijen (grain-free), their stinky poops stopped. I once tried to switch them over to Kirkland, and Belle started to get the stinky poop issue again.

So, for the last couple years, they had been eating Orijen dry as well as Friskies wet (chicken dinner pate, only). A couple times I accidentally bought the "chunks" version of the chicken dinner, which has different ingredients, and if I fed it, Belle's soft poops would come back. I think some cats, like Belle, just don't do well with variety.

Now, my girls are on Hill's i/d dry because of Belle's recent health issues. They won't touch the wet food, so they were still on Fancy Feast (mostly chicken/turkey varieties, but some tuna in there) - a hold over from when we were trying to get Belle to eat something. They smelled horrible. Their litterbox wreaked, but they also seemed to track that smell with them around the house too. They are back to the Friskies, and things seem to be better again.

So, I guess my suggestions would be to avoid variety or two try a grain-free diet....but I would talk to your vet too.

1) Yes, IMO treatment of Revolution should be used as a preventative (despite the clean fecal) just to make sure. Re-treat again in three weeks (usually you wait four, but when bringing ferals inside, we've always done the three-week thing). Revolution treats for fleas, flea eggs, ticks, round worm, and heart worm.

2) Typically in an elimination diet, you focus on one food and stick to the same ingredients. But you mentioned that Calvin can get... finicky (though I don't think you used that word LOL), and needs variety. So I was thinking - not just one food brand, so much as - same basic ingredients (regardless of brand).

All of that said... to "reset" Chumley's system when we couldn't get a handle on his diarrhea at first, we fasted him for 24 hours, then fed him boiled chicken and rice for a week. This took him from liquid diarrhea to soft stools. Then we started him on a simple probiotic - acidophilis & bifidus. The brand we bought recommended a human dose of 2-3 pills/day, so we started him on 1/4 pill, and each few days we bumped the amount. His stools got a little firmer, and he seems to need 2 pills/day. We sprinkle one capsule on his food in the morning, and one on his food at night.

We then did an elimination diet by putting him on the Hill's Science Diet Prescription food z/d. If our vet carried Royal Canin, we would have used their allergy food. The difference is that RC is hydrolyzed soy, where z/d is hydrolyzed chicken. The problem (we found out later), is that while the z/d WET has no triggers - the z/d dry has brewer's rice as a major source of protein. This could explain why switching him to the z/d made no difference at all after six weeks, because we didn't have him on an all wet diet at that point.

Have you already done a couple of rounds with Metro and Centrine? (Very typical treatment for rescue kitties with tummy trouble - metronidazole is an antibiotic but one that supposedly doesn't mess with the healthy bacteria in the gut - it's brand name is Flagyl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronidazole). Centrine: http://www.peteducation.com/article....+1459&aid=1375)

If you haven't, those would be something to consider in order to rule out a protozoa or bacterial problem before going nuts trying to figure out if it's a food issue.

A number of people have had success with the grain free diet. And of course, you really shouldn't do any of this without vet supervision (though many vets are really deficient when it comes to knowledge of nutrition issues).

We won't put our kitties on a grain free diet, but that is because they're older and the males have a history of cyrstals (both calcium oxalate and struvite). Grain free diets don't seem to agree with kitties that are prone to crystal creation. That said - our cats were on ONLY dry food for the first few years of their lives, and we now know that that makes for concentrated urine. Had we known then what we know now, we would have worked a lot harder to get them switched to an all wet diet faster - or at least a predominantly wet diet. I don't know that a grain free diet is a problem if the food being fed is basically all wet though (in relation to crystals, which is a problem for or boys, but potentially not yours, and certainly not yet. ).

BTW, two weeks of grain free is majorly helping Jen's kitty (having the same issues): http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=226160

Tumbles was having soft stools and we did metro for 2 rounds. After the 2nd round, the loose stools and horrible smell came back. We were feeding him TOTW dry and Wellness and EVO canned. The vet suggested putting him on Royal Canin Gastro HE. Ever since we started him on that, he's had perfect poops. We surmise the grain free was too rich for his little system. We're going to start adding some TOTW back into his dry food to see if he can tolerate it now.

Athena had these same issues when we first got her, for months on end, no matter what brand I tried. Eventually I tried switching to grain-free food and saw some improvement. I saw further improvement when I removed kibble from her diet entirely.

However the only thing she's ever had perfect stools on has been raw. I can feed her grain-free canned and she'll have okay stools, but slightly stinky and a little mushy. If I feed her any kibble, even grain-free kibble, the litterbox is a disaster. So now I've just stuck to raw with occasional grain-free canned.

Basically some cats don't handle processed food very well. If Calvin has a sensitive stomach, then the easier his food is on his digestive system, the better. Grains/carbs are harder to digest than meat-based diets, and cooked meat is harder to digest than raw meat. Athena's reactions to her food seem to match this scale exactly.

Oh, and for the record, Athena has no issues with variety. I've fed her multiple brands/flavors since switching to canned, and it's never troubled her, despite her stomach sensitivities.

Of course every cat is different, so you need to do whatever seems to work best for Calvin. It could be grain, processed food, or even a particular meat sensitivity. I'd definitely try out grain-free canned at least, and perhaps raw. I was originally a raw skeptic but after a lot of research, hearing all the problems it's cleared up in other cats, and seeing what it's done for mine, I believe it's definitely a great thing to try out when trying to resolve food issues.

I don't remember where you are (if you've mentioned it) but get him a heartworm test before starting Revolution.

And yes, I suggest a proper deworming, too. It would be silly if this is something simpler (worms) that was over looked. Once it's done and if it doesn't help, you can mark that off the list.

So you likely do have high counts of heartworm infections in your area. If he's possibly been outside it's worth getting that test out of the way. I think it cost $30-40?

And in part, yes, maybe quite a bit of meds in a short time. Step back and make a list of possible issues and only try treating for one at a time (otherwise you'll never know what caused it in the first place) - ie, don't do a lot of different meds close together, or at least not without checking out his liver function through out all of this. Blood work may also give you some other hints.
I also suggest that after deworming if the stools are still soft with blood that you have more testing done - have the vet send it out for proper testing (such as you're considering since you mentioned t foetus) Maybe I'm wrong, but IMO it's better to know what you're treating for especially if it takes specific treatment to control.

Do you give him probiotics already? if not, start some.

Bene-bac, Eagle Pack's holistic solutions probiotic, and human probiotics (just not as large of dose). Each have slightly different strains of bacteria. All the medicating alone can really mix up the GI.

I hope you can get this solved. I had one that had reoccurring diarrhea (luckily just diarrhea and gas, no blood or mucus) and he turned out to have a problem with chicken. I can keep his stools nice as long as he doesn't sneak anyone elses food that has chicken in it..
That would be the next step if parasites are finally ruled out.

I know he's a kitten, but what we did with Chum (and what is recommended for stopping a cycle of diarrhea in an otherwise healthy cat) is fasting for 24 hours, and putting him on a simple diet for a week - and see if his diarrhea improves. We used boiled chicken and rice, as most cats are tolerant of chicken.

If his stool doesn't improve on this diet, then you know that either chicken or rice is a problem - or it's something else altogether.

I think what I'd do if I were you is forget the panacur. If he does have worms, then they're obviously resistant to panacur (we had that, actually). Repeating the same meds over and over won't help. I'd use Advantage Plus (a different topical that also treats round worm, but not heart worm). We had such a bad experience with Fortiflora, we'd use what we do use - acidophilus/bifidus combo (obtained from a health food store, start with 1/4 recommended human dose) and give it a week.

If there's no improvement, then I'd fast him for 24 hours and try the boiled chicken and rice. I know he's a kitten and needs the higher protein foods, but one week isn't going to stunt his growth. You'll know if it's helping or not.

If not - then I'd try either Royal Canin or Hill's Science Diet allergy foods. (I'd try Royal Canin if any vets around you can get it. It's a hydrolyzed soy protein, and the dry food doesn't have brewer's rice in it, which the Hill's does - and brewer's rice can be a trigger, so what it's doing in an anti-allergan food I have no idea). Again - I know you're worried about his calories/protein for growth, but if he IS allergic to the food, he shouldn't be eating it anyway.

The problem with this is that you have to give it 4 - 6 weeks to be sure (unless it helps inside of a couple of weeks, then you're SURE it was something in the diet).

If that doesn't work, I'd do what we did. Go to a holistic vet. The herbal treatment she gave us for Chumley firmed up his stool inside of 4 days.

Edited to add: actually, I just looked up the ingredients in RC hypoallergenic (again). It appears to only come in dry food form, and one of the main ingredients is chicken fat, not hydrolized. So even though Hill's Pet prescription hypoallergenic (the z/d) dry food's first ingredient is brewer's rice, I'd probably go that route. The logic here is... if the boiled chicken gave Calvin problems, there's no point in moving to a hypoallergenic food that has chicken fat as a main ingredient (which the Royal Canin does).

If his issue is grain, then even higher-quality food could provoke a negative reaction. I had Athena on Blue Buffalo and one other brand originally (no corn, no brewer's yeast, no wheat gluten, but they did contain some grains like rice) and even that set her off.

Some of the high-quality brands like Wellness, BB, and Merrick do contain grains, some don't. Wellness marks all their grain-free flavors with a yellow "grain free" triangle. Merrick has an all grain-free line (Before Grain) and some of their Gourmet Entrees are grain-free (but you'll have to check the ingredients lists to determine which) and BB's grain-free line is Wilderness.

Basically what I'd do is look at the foods he's getting and see what is common to them. If it's just one brand/flavor, then that's a little trickier as it could really be many things (the protein choice, a grain if there are any, etc.). Or it could simply be that particular food is too rich for him.

I have heard others mention diarrhea problems with Wellness Kitten. I believe it's fairly rich, and some cats don't handle that well. With high-quality brands like Wellness you really don't need to feed kitten-specific lines. Adult Wellness should be totally appropriate for kittens his age, as it's a fairly nutrient-rich brand. He may just need more of it than an adult cat would.

So yeah, a good place to start could be just switching off the Wellness kitten to either Adult Wellness, a different brand you like, or a plain diet for a few days and see if that helps.

Boiled chicken breast should be fine to give him as long as there are no bones in it (cooked bones can splinter). A plain diet for a few days is certainly a good option, to help rule out a protein allergy (like a chicken allergy) or a grain intolerance (like an issue with rice). Just know that he obviously can't stay on a diet of just that long-term of course, since it doesn't contain everything he needs. But a short term elimination diet of that works fine.

Also, please do not feel pressured to buy a specific brand that your vet recommends if you are not comfortable with it. Even some of the nicest vets lack in-depth nutritional education (it's a topic often skimmed, or taught by pet food company reps in veterinary school) and don't always recommend brands I'd feel comfortable feeding my cats either. Discuss your options with your vet and see if you can find a food that makes you feel comfortable with as well. Don't be afraid to do independent research and ask your vet specific questions about specific ingredients or different brands.

If you can see a correlation, then it's definitely worth finding out if it's the culprit! I assume you're talking about the dry?

I don't know what to recommend switching TO. Grain free has worked for kitties with diarrhea. For our Chumley, grain free was just too rich.

I'd probably still do the 24 hour fast, and then the boiled chicken & rice. If it is the grain, he won't get better with the rice. If it is the Wellness kitten, he should do real well on the plain food trial, and you'll have your answer.

For a food trial you need to try a meat and starch/ grain that is completely new..

Ie If chicken with rice and potato has been the normal food... try either a fish or lamb base with oatmeal

Food allergy trials are 6-12 weeks... That means NOTHING but the trial food for that time... NO variety .....

Unfortunately any dry food is going to have more carbs (even if it's grain-free) than wet food. It's possible it could be the carb content of the dry food if he's fine on wet but not on dry. I know Athena is worse on any kibble, even grain-free kibble, than she is on canned food.

Someone else else may be able to suggest a kibble that could work. I can't help you there as I don't feed any kibble anymore. But it's possible he may just be better off on canned. Which many cats are anyway, because of its moisture content and the slightly less-processed and lower-carb nature of it compared to dry.

Well, like others have said - it really just depends on what works for the cat. Apparently grain free is not what Calvin needs!

Our cats were all on a prescription diet, and now they're on only wet (for the most part), so I can't help with the dry food suggestions. If I could do it all over, I wouldn't free feed from the very beginning (though it does make life a lot more flexible for people LOL).

I'm sure there have been threads about it here - try searching on "quality dry" or something in this forum.

how about a simple what DID not at all work, what kinda worked and why it did not and then the foods that did...

see a simple formula is not simple


at this point I would do a food trial ... the type will depend what you have available to you/...

I prefer a sweet potato with a meat