Tummy troubles and nutrition

Ever since he came to us, Calvin's had some tummy issues and I've posted about this at different times in the health section. He was on Science Diet at the foster's house and I have slowly moved him over to Wellness Kitten dry. As per advice that I received here, I have limited the number of times he has fish. He's had 2 stool cultures - both came back negative. They did not test for T-foetus.

There were a couple of instances of little blood in poop but have not seen any of late. He sometimes has real bad gas and his fart is REALLY BAD SMELLING. His stool is not runny but various degrees of soft. I have not been able to establish a pattern between what he eats and his stool.

Vet feels that it may be kitten thing and sometimes kittens just outgrow this when they grow up. Calvin has a rounded belly from the beginning.

He's had 1 course of Flagyl and 3 days of panacur. After both times his poop became firmer but then back to softer after a few days. He was also on probiotics for 3 weeks or so, which did not help too much.

My question is, anything else I can try on my own nutrition- wise before I go back to the vet?

Additional info:
Calvin eats:
Wellness Kitten dry - 1/4 cup or so a day
Wet - about 2 small cans a day.
1 wellness kitten wet everyday and the other I rotate either FF Fish and Shrimp (2-3 a week - the ingredients look good and it has tons of protein) since he loves it so much, Avoderm Salmon and Chicken in Gravy (never on days that he gets FF - again perhaps once a week), 2 of the chicken flavors of the Trader Joe's ones (in rotation most along with Wellness) and sometimes Natural Choice chicken and liver.
Calvin wants variety and I will soon remove the avoderm and Natural choice and add other wellness flavors and Instinct possibly.

I know you're asking in the nutrition forum, but our experience with round worm and Shelly's colitis could explain these symptoms. Was Calvin a rescue cat? If so, if his parasitic load is not large, it could cause problems but not show up in a fecal. And one treatment will only treat that round of worms. The treatments only kill the adult worms, and the life cycle of the worms is such that at a minimum a second round of treatment needs to be applied (and sometimes a 3rd) after three weeks (each treatment needs to be spaced by three weeks). Our vet always had us go with a 10-day treatment of Panacur, though now we just use the topical, Revolution. But two cycle treatments with Revolution or Profender might not be a bad idea - just to eliminate round worm as the potential culprit.

As it turns out, we had a treatment resistant strain of round worm, and the cats also needed to be treated with Strongid-T in addition to the Panacur. On top of that, Shelly had colitis. We had to put him on a food for sensitive tummies. Back then, there weren't so many premium brands available, and we just went with whatever the Hill's Science Diet prescription stuff was. We eventually needed to switch him to the prescription c/d, because they ate only dry food (they hated wet food - it was a long process getting them to eat it) - and ALL of the boys (at the time) developed problems with crystals within their first 2 years. Thankfully, the c/d agreed with Shelly's tummy.

It could also be that Calvin's allergic to something in the food. Doing an elimination diet is a PIA, and if he needs variety, that can be a real challenge. But instead of increasing his variety right now, you might want to work on eliminating potential allergy triggers - and find variety that is based in the same ingredients, and stick with one series of foods at a time for six weeks or so to see how he reacts.

Thanks so much for the tips. At this point I am trying to figure out if I can make dietary changes to make an improvement. Yes, Calvin is a rescue cat and I do suspect at times that there is an ongoing worm issue.
At our 1st visit to the vet with Calvin he had mentioned Revolution (the topical one) as a preventative measure. Does it actively kill worms too? The receptionist at the vet's had said I can get it over spring and so was waiting. I can get that tomorrow if it can help with an ongoing issue.

When you say a "series" of food, do you mean particular brands? In that case I can try different flavors of Wellness wet and then see. We had, at a point, removed the Fancy Feast from his diet and it made no improvement and at one time when he was not well and lethargic, Fancy Feast was the only thing we could get him to eat and so it got back into circulation. But I can definitely stick to 1 brand, if that has different flavors available. I try to limit as much fish as I can (though he just loves fish) and also see that his food does not have soy, wheat and brewer's rice.

Originally Posted by LDG

I know you're asking in the nutrition forum, but our experience with round worm and Shelly's colitis could explain these symptoms. Was Calvin a rescue cat? If so, if his parasitic load is not large, it could cause problems but not show up in a fecal. And one treatment will only treat that round of worms. The treatments only kill the adult worms, and the life cycle of the worms is such that at a minimum a second round of treatment needs to be applied (and sometimes a 3rd) after three weeks (each treatment needs to be spaced by three weeks). Our vet always had us go with a 10-day treatment of Panacur, though now we just use the topical, Revolution. But two cycle treatments with Revolution or Profender might not be a bad idea - just to eliminate round worm as the potential culprit.

As it turns out, we had a treatment resistant strain of round worm, and the cats also needed to be treated with Strongid-T in addition to the Panacur. On top of that, Shelly had colitis. We had to put him on a food for sensitive tummies. Back then, there weren't so many premium brands available, and we just went with whatever the Hill's Science Diet prescription stuff was. We eventually needed to switch him to the prescription c/d, because they ate only dry food (they hated wet food - it was a long process getting them to eat it) - and ALL of the boys (at the time) developed problems with crystals within their first 2 years. Thankfully, the c/d agreed with Shelly's tummy.

It could also be that Calvin's allergic to something in the food. Doing an elimination diet is a PIA, and if he needs variety, that can be a real challenge. But instead of increasing his variety right now, you might want to work on eliminating potential allergy triggers - and find variety that is based in the same ingredients, and stick with one series of foods at a time for six weeks or so to see how he reacts.

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I really don't know what is causing Calvin's problems, but I'll just share my experience.

When my girls were kittens, they had really stinky, softer poops. If I recall correctly, I fed them Wellness kitten at the beginning. Once I switched them over to Orijen (grain-free), their stinky poops stopped. I once tried to switch them over to Kirkland, and Belle started to get the stinky poop issue again.

So, for the last couple years, they had been eating Orijen dry as well as Friskies wet (chicken dinner pate, only). A couple times I accidentally bought the "chunks" version of the chicken dinner, which has different ingredients, and if I fed it, Belle's soft poops would come back. I think some cats, like Belle, just don't do well with variety.

Now, my girls are on Hill's i/d dry because of Belle's recent health issues. They won't touch the wet food, so they were still on Fancy Feast (mostly chicken/turkey varieties, but some tuna in there) - a hold over from when we were trying to get Belle to eat something. They smelled horrible. Their litterbox wreaked, but they also seemed to track that smell with them around the house too. They are back to the Friskies, and things seem to be better again.

So, I guess my suggestions would be to avoid variety or two try a grain-free diet....but I would talk to your vet too.

1) Yes, IMO treatment of Revolution should be used as a preventative (despite the clean fecal) just to make sure. Re-treat again in three weeks (usually you wait four, but when bringing ferals inside, we've always done the three-week thing). Revolution treats for fleas, flea eggs, ticks, round worm, and heart worm.

2) Typically in an elimination diet, you focus on one food and stick to the same ingredients. But you mentioned that Calvin can get... finicky (though I don't think you used that word LOL), and needs variety. So I was thinking - not just one food brand, so much as - same basic ingredients (regardless of brand).

All of that said... to "reset" Chumley's system when we couldn't get a handle on his diarrhea at first, we fasted him for 24 hours, then fed him boiled chicken and rice for a week. This took him from liquid diarrhea to soft stools. Then we started him on a simple probiotic - acidophilis & bifidus. The brand we bought recommended a human dose of 2-3 pills/day, so we started him on 1/4 pill, and each few days we bumped the amount. His stools got a little firmer, and he seems to need 2 pills/day. We sprinkle one capsule on his food in the morning, and one on his food at night.

We then did an elimination diet by putting him on the Hill's Science Diet Prescription food z/d. If our vet carried Royal Canin, we would have used their allergy food. The difference is that RC is hydrolyzed soy, where z/d is hydrolyzed chicken. The problem (we found out later), is that while the z/d WET has no triggers - the z/d dry has brewer's rice as a major source of protein. This could explain why switching him to the z/d made no difference at all after six weeks, because we didn't have him on an all wet diet at that point.

Have you already done a couple of rounds with Metro and Centrine? (Very typical treatment for rescue kitties with tummy trouble - metronidazole is an antibiotic but one that supposedly doesn't mess with the healthy bacteria in the gut - it's brand name is Flagyl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronidazole). Centrine: http://www.peteducation.com/article....+1459&aid=1375)

If you haven't, those would be something to consider in order to rule out a protozoa or bacterial problem before going nuts trying to figure out if it's a food issue.

Originally Posted by zoeysmom

So, I guess my suggestions would be to avoid variety or to try a grain-free diet....but I would talk to your vet too.

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A number of people have had success with the grain free diet. And of course, you really shouldn't do any of this without vet supervision (though many vets are really deficient when it comes to knowledge of nutrition issues).

We won't put our kitties on a grain free diet, but that is because they're older and the males have a history of cyrstals (both calcium oxalate and struvite). Grain free diets don't seem to agree with kitties that are prone to crystal creation. That said - our cats were on ONLY dry food for the first few years of their lives, and we now know that that makes for concentrated urine. Had we known then what we know now, we would have worked a lot harder to get them switched to an all wet diet faster - or at least a predominantly wet diet. I don't know that a grain free diet is a problem if the food being fed is basically all wet though (in relation to crystals, which is a problem for or boys, but potentially not yours, and certainly not yet. ).

BTW, two weeks of grain free is majorly helping Jen's kitty (having the same issues): http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=226160

I did not call him finicky in this thread but have publicly in the past. Finicky is an understatement. He is picky about his food but not about anything he finds on the floor, counters, anywhere - edible or not.

I don't know how on board my vet's office is about nutrition. They think Science Diet is great and so is FF (spoke to a vet - that's what she feeds her cats). Are there any dry grain free for Kittens? The ones that I see are mostly adults and this is one thing my vet was particular about that Calvin has Kitten food (dry) for the 1st year of his life. Origen, I think is for "Cat and Kitten."

I guess if I have to limit ingredients as far as the wet food goes, it is easiest with chicken. However, I don't know how it will work with the fussy eater I have at hand. Somehow my vet had looked at Calvin and said that he'd be a fussy eater and will demand variety

Treatments Calvin had: (sorry if in wrong section)

1) Dec 1 - 1st vet visit. (adopted 28th Nov). Given some prescription diet since had softer stool - some blood. In the beginning he was not having any wet food that we offered him and the 1st time he had any and liked was the prescription that the vet gave him. He had a little for next couple of days and then refused to eat any prescription but ok with fancy feast (did not know any better then - he was on FF at foster's). Doc did stool culture and gave him a worming med at the clinic. Asked me to give him probiotics. Culture negative.

2) Dec 10- Called doc - said no improvement. Did retest of stool - still negative. Gave 5 days metro (flagyl). Normal stool 2 days on Flagyl. Ok for a few days. Couple of days of softer but mostly decent poop continues till Jan 1st week

3) Jan 4th - foamy vomit. lethargy. Took to vet. found nothing. but palpated tummy and said diarrhea on way. Came home - no diarrhea. Gave 3 doses of panacur. Was doing reasonably ok since.

4) Jan 14th - vomitted out food and softer poop started that day. Except for a couple of BMs that was more normal - he's since had softer poop. Called vet - said if vomitting continues to get him to the clinic. It did not. But softer poop did. I called after a week and left message for vet if he wanted to do anything at that point. He wanted to wait and see since he thinks it may be a "kitten" thing.

maybe I should call the vet and ask for more worming med?

Tumbles was having soft stools and we did metro for 2 rounds. After the 2nd round, the loose stools and horrible smell came back. We were feeding him TOTW dry and Wellness and EVO canned. The vet suggested putting him on Royal Canin Gastro HE. Ever since we started him on that, he's had perfect poops. We surmise the grain free was too rich for his little system. We're going to start adding some TOTW back into his dry food to see if he can tolerate it now.

Athena had these same issues when we first got her, for months on end, no matter what brand I tried. Eventually I tried switching to grain-free food and saw some improvement. I saw further improvement when I removed kibble from her diet entirely.

However the only thing she's ever had perfect stools on has been raw. I can feed her grain-free canned and she'll have okay stools, but slightly stinky and a little mushy. If I feed her any kibble, even grain-free kibble, the litterbox is a disaster. So now I've just stuck to raw with occasional grain-free canned.

Basically some cats don't handle processed food very well. If Calvin has a sensitive stomach, then the easier his food is on his digestive system, the better. Grains/carbs are harder to digest than meat-based diets, and cooked meat is harder to digest than raw meat. Athena's reactions to her food seem to match this scale exactly.

Oh, and for the record, Athena has no issues with variety. I've fed her multiple brands/flavors since switching to canned, and it's never troubled her, despite her stomach sensitivities.

Of course every cat is different, so you need to do whatever seems to work best for Calvin. It could be grain, processed food, or even a particular meat sensitivity. I'd definitely try out grain-free canned at least, and perhaps raw. I was originally a raw skeptic but after a lot of research, hearing all the problems it's cleared up in other cats, and seeing what it's done for mine, I believe it's definitely a great thing to try out when trying to resolve food issues.

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences. It seems that the only way to know would be by trying out different things and it always helps if the vet's on board on this. While grain free worked for Athena, it did not for Tumbles.
I checked with Wellness and it seems their regular line of canned food without grains is not for kitten but the "kitten" is and EVO, too.
As far as raw goes, I think I will wait on that till I am done with my research trip and can try that in summer. I don't think DH will be able to manage too much on his own. I also want to do the calculation as to cost of different combinations of food. We cannot put a price tag on our furballs but since I am contemplating getting a friend for Calvin, I want to make sure I will be able to afford it. I am spending close to $100 on food but some of the more specialty food's way more expensive. I will not compromise with Calvin's food but it may be difficult to double the expenses.

I don't remember where you are (if you've mentioned it) but get him a heartworm test before starting Revolution.

And yes, I suggest a proper deworming, too. It would be silly if this is something simpler (worms) that was over looked. Once it's done and if it doesn't help, you can mark that off the list.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

I don't remember where you are (if you've mentioned it) but get him a heartworm test before starting Revolution.

And yes, I suggest a proper deworming, too. It would be silly if this is something simpler (worms) that was over looked. Once it's done and if it doesn't help, you can mark that off the list.

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That's a good idea. Yeah, perhaps looking into the worms aspect would be a good place to restart. DH is concerned that Calvin may be overmedicated and since he's playing and eating, he is possibly ok. But then we agree that he should not be having such softer and smelly poop.
I am in north eastern Ohio

Originally Posted by Calvin&I

I am in north eastern Ohio

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So you likely do have high counts of heartworm infections in your area. If he's possibly been outside it's worth getting that test out of the way. I think it cost $30-40?

And in part, yes, maybe quite a bit of meds in a short time. Step back and make a list of possible issues and only try treating for one at a time (otherwise you'll never know what caused it in the first place) - ie, don't do a lot of different meds close together, or at least not without checking out his liver function through out all of this. Blood work may also give you some other hints.
I also suggest that after deworming if the stools are still soft with blood that you have more testing done - have the vet send it out for proper testing (such as you're considering since you mentioned t foetus) Maybe I'm wrong, but IMO it's better to know what you're treating for especially if it takes specific treatment to control.

Do you give him probiotics already? if not, start some.

He was outside for a bit till they found him. I think they decided TNR (tipped ears) and then thought of giving him a chance and had his fostered with a rescue. I can get the heartworm testing done. I do have a couple of fortiflora from when we first got him some and can restart.

Any others probiotics anyone can recommend?

The vets did bring up t foetus and FIP at different times while explaining the different things that can happen. I would rather start simpler since listening to everyone I feel that more can be done to get rid of simpler worm issues. And then can move from there.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

So you likely do have high counts of heartworm infections in your area. If he's possibly been outside it's worth getting that test out of the way. I think it cost $30-40?

And in part, yes, maybe quite a bit of meds in a short time. Step back and make a list of possible issues and only try treating for one at a time (otherwise you'll never know what caused it in the first place) - ie, don't do a lot of different meds close together, or at least not without checking out his liver function through out all of this.

Blood work may also give you some other hints.
I also suggest that after deworming if the stools are still soft with blood that you have more testing done - have the vet send it out for proper testing (such as you're considering since you mentioned t foetus) Maybe I'm wrong, but IMO it's better to know what you're treating for especially if it takes specific treatment to control.

Do you give him probiotics already? if not, start some.

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Bene-bac, Eagle Pack's holistic solutions probiotic, and human probiotics (just not as large of dose). Each have slightly different strains of bacteria. All the medicating alone can really mix up the GI.

I hope you can get this solved. I had one that had reoccurring diarrhea (luckily just diarrhea and gas, no blood or mucus) and he turned out to have a problem with chicken. I can keep his stools nice as long as he doesn't sneak anyone elses food that has chicken in it..
That would be the next step if parasites are finally ruled out.

Ok will check out the probiotics and will possibly give the vet a call tomorrow (they closed at noon today). He's not have blood or mucuous in his last bout of softer poo (usually more pudding consistency) and gassy and smelly. He does get a lot of chicken in his diet, though.
I sometimes feel, as laurie mentioned, should I try chicken and rice but I do not know if I will need an additional supplement.
I have also heard the mention of pumpkin and was wondering if that can help in this case but if worms are the issue, it will not be too beneficial.

I just spoke to Calvin's vet - I do like their practice a lot. He feels that Calvin should outgrow it and suggested I may change some food around and see. He felt that Calvin's got enough worm medicine. I then told him that I had observed his stool improving with the worming meds everytime, to which he then said that he will then try panacur one more time. I don't know if I did the right thing by pointing that out to him - I surely do not want to overmedicate Calvin. The fact that Calvin's growing and putting on weight and in good spirit and playful is why he feels it may not be a worm issue.

The lady at the vet's office I spoke to yesterday mentioned that perhaps Kitten food with all the added fat, carb, calories is perhaps not good for him.
So would appreciate some advice on following:
1) would it be better to move to a all life stages dry food first? He's on Wellness Kitten
2) Most of Calvin's wet food (maybe even all) do not have soy, wheat gluten, brewer's rice, etc. And most are chicken based. Should I try manipulating the wet food first? There does not seem to be a whole lot of variety if I take chicken out of the picture - mostly it's fish. Would that be good?

Any advice as to how to start this process?

I know he's a kitten, but what we did with Chum (and what is recommended for stopping a cycle of diarrhea in an otherwise healthy cat) is fasting for 24 hours, and putting him on a simple diet for a week - and see if his diarrhea improves. We used boiled chicken and rice, as most cats are tolerant of chicken.

If his stool doesn't improve on this diet, then you know that either chicken or rice is a problem - or it's something else altogether.

I think what I'd do if I were you is forget the panacur. If he does have worms, then they're obviously resistant to panacur (we had that, actually). Repeating the same meds over and over won't help. I'd use Advantage Plus (a different topical that also treats round worm, but not heart worm). We had such a bad experience with Fortiflora, we'd use what we do use - acidophilus/bifidus combo (obtained from a health food store, start with 1/4 recommended human dose) and give it a week.

If there's no improvement, then I'd fast him for 24 hours and try the boiled chicken and rice. I know he's a kitten and needs the higher protein foods, but one week isn't going to stunt his growth. You'll know if it's helping or not.

If not - then I'd try either Royal Canin or Hill's Science Diet allergy foods. (I'd try Royal Canin if any vets around you can get it. It's a hydrolyzed soy protein, and the dry food doesn't have brewer's rice in it, which the Hill's does - and brewer's rice can be a trigger, so what it's doing in an anti-allergan food I have no idea). Again - I know you're worried about his calories/protein for growth, but if he IS allergic to the food, he shouldn't be eating it anyway.

The problem with this is that you have to give it 4 - 6 weeks to be sure (unless it helps inside of a couple of weeks, then you're SURE it was something in the diet).

If that doesn't work, I'd do what we did. Go to a holistic vet. The herbal treatment she gave us for Chumley firmed up his stool inside of 4 days.

Edited to add: actually, I just looked up the ingredients in RC hypoallergenic (again). It appears to only come in dry food form, and one of the main ingredients is chicken fat, not hydrolized. So even though Hill's Pet prescription hypoallergenic (the z/d) dry food's first ingredient is brewer's rice, I'd probably go that route. The logic here is... if the boiled chicken gave Calvin problems, there's no point in moving to a hypoallergenic food that has chicken fat as a main ingredient (which the Royal Canin does).