Chumley's (FIV+) Health Journal

That works if you're feeding them a raw diet. My understanding is that's really the only way to have it be effective. Giving them something like raw chicken wings several times a week won't have that much of an impact.

Originally Posted by MNJULZ

My holistic vet recommended raw bones for teeth cleaning. She said you willl never pay for a dental again. (that would be in addition to their regular food). Of course mine will not touch a raw bone but I did try.

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Hi,
please clarify ... was your vet talking about a cat with FIV or FeLV, or just in general.
thx,
g

In general for cats and dogs. Not only chicken wings, turkey necks, actually there were quite a few different kinds of RAW bones on the list. All I can say is that is what my vet recommended for teeth cleaning. Mine wouldn't eat it so for me it was a moot point. I did do a search on this site for raw bones and there has been quite a bit of discussion on it. I would love suggestions besides bones and toothbrushes. Neither work in my house and dentals for 4 cats is expensive (along with everything else) When you speak of Qi, does your vet do accupuncture or do all holistic vets talk about Qi?


I wish you and Chumley all the best. He seems like a sweatheart.

She does acupuncture, but he's not being treated with acupuncture (now, or yet). He is being treated with Chinese herbs based on the .... Chinese medical interpretation of the body (not sure how to phrase that LOL). She listens to his (meridian?) pulses, she talks about "hot" and "cold" and "wet". His initial diagnosis was an extreme spleen Qi deficiency, and an extreme yin deficiency. But apparently the herbs she initially prescribed are doing a good job of bringing him back into proper balance. (He sure does look better and clearly feels better than he did!).

Oh so glad to hear Chum Lovebug is feeling good . Wilbur gets some chinese herbs too and accupressure. He specifically gets Meridian Circulation Chinese Herbs (for pain/arthritis) and she talks about hot/cold. Wilbur always needs to be cooled internally, so he gets an herbal remedy for that too. I do think after his treatments he feels better and more energetic as well. At this point, I am willing to try anything to keep him happy and feeling good .

Good BOY CHUM... glad he is doing better, that handsome boy with the cute chubby legs

Thank you for the information on your boy Chum! I have a little boy kitty who I am fostering who is FIV+. He was the neighbor's cat and hung around our yard all last summer, being careful to stay 10 or more feet from my two feral kitties, Ace and William- but always trying to be somewhat near them.

Over the winter I started to see this boy in the middle of the night at my back door in sub-zero weather and snow everywhere. I had been worried about him in the fall, so when I put the swimming pool cover over our gazebo for Ace and William, I made a smaller shelter for this boy with another pool cover. Sure enough he moved in.

By late January I was feeding him at a safe distance from Ace and William and had him scheduled for a spay day as he was not neutered and was spraying and attracting other cats to Ace and Williams winter hideaway. In the end I had to put him in the garage earlier than planned as he showed up with lacerations.

At the spay day he got all his vetting and they told me he was FIV positive. So I brought him inside and was extremely lucky that the rescue group who did his spay agreed to sponsor him with me as foster mom.

I named him Curly and he now lives in a foster room in our house. Your information was very helpful as my Curly also has very bad allergies around his neck and ears. I am feeding him natural balance wet food, limited ingredient diet of duck and green pea, plus the venison and green pea. I have not yet figured out what he is allergic to, but am doing a lot of what you are doing- keeping dust out, using hepa filters, have just recently gotten homeopathic allergy meds from 2docs pet wellness. I also use hypoallergenic grooming wipes to keep any flakiness and dander off his skin. He also has some bare spots and fur gouges. And we also treated him for ear mites and an ear infection.

I reluctantly have taken him to the vet this month and last month for steroid injections because he was gouging himself so badly- he is a four-paw polydactyl boy and does a lot of damage with his huge paws. It bought me time to try and figure out what is going on. As you probably know, it is a vexing and bewildering and frustrating process! I do think he may be allergic to fish and maybe also chicken.

I am wondering if you have given your Chumley any vitamin C to help his overall immunity. I was not sure if these are part of the herbal meds you mentioned. I want to give these to Curly and am worried about how much before he gets diarrhea.

This has been a long process. Even though Curly was people-friendly he was not litter box trained. And I cannot put him with my own cats because my boy cat is not friendly to other boys. Curly is also a hard-body cat, very muscular and although he is not dominant, he is confident. Also he treats people as if they are other cats- a lot of interactive dominance with biting and grabbing of arms and legs. Augh.

Thank you for letting me share this information. I hope you will continue to post about Chumley. I don't know where this road is going to lead with Curly. I do hope to get his allergies under control.

I also have a lot of trapping to do outside. My poor Ace and William have lots of unneutered cats around now and they are gentle sweet kitties who do not like conflict. I am resigned to the likelihood that they could also be FIV+ now. I have been so lucky over the past several years with them being safe in my back yard.

Hi Barb! Oh my - a four paw polydactl - I'm already swooning.

for the neighbors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're a love for taking him in, and how WONDERFUL that the rescue is sponsoring him! Chumley was so food aggressive outside, we had to remove him from the colony - but he was so food motivated, he warmed up quickly to us. He was all set to go into the foster network when we found out he was FIV+. Their policy is to put them down. We had a choice - adopt him or kill him.

And just FYI, we have a colony outside of about 11. We don't test for FIV or FeLV when they're being TNR'd, only if they're going to go into the foster network. Cats with healthy immune systems can fight of the infection... that's why the prevalence of FIV/FeLV is only 2-3% of the feral cat population, despite how infectious FeLV is.

Anyway, when we realized he had the allergies, the first thing we did was not start eliminating foods. We immediately put him on the Hill's z/d allergy diet. Our mistake? He was eating wet AND dry and the z/d dry has brewer's yeast in it. Brewer's rice can be a trigger (I still can't figure out why it's used in the z/d!) The protein in the wet is hydrolized chicken, so even if chicken was the trigger, it shouldn't have been a problem.

He won't eat duck & pea food - not even the pill pockets LOL.

We have two overweight kitties though, so we ended up just moving everyone to an all wet diet. We never did an elimination diet for Chum, we just checked ingredients to avoid normal triggers. We basically avoid most grains and soy. He does get a small amount of wheat gluten in his pill pockets, and he does get WHOLE rice in his food (and that doesn't seem to be a problem). He also has some oat and barley. But to my way of thinking, if he's getting healtheir, and his immune system stronger, then he can handle small amounts of what could otherwise be triggers - especially as we rotate food and don't feed him the same thing all the time.

I'm allergic to everything they tested for (40 environmental things, including cats). I take zyrtec - and when I take my anti-allergy meds, I can be exposed to the allergans without triggering problems (usually. Mowing the lawn is a problem LOL). My theory is it should work the same way for Chum if he's being properly treated.

The wet food we feed him is:

Holisitic Select (rotate all flavors)
Instinct (rotate all flavors - not beef, no one likes it)
Wellness pouches - only those that do NOT have potato starch
Some c/d (just because we feed it to our other kitties). It means he gets a little corn meal gluten - but again, it's not a major amount in his overall diet.

So if there is a meat that's a trigger, he's not getting enough of it to trigger him (if that makes sense), because we rotate between turkey, duck, chicken, rabbit, seafood, &etc. He does get a disproportionate amount of turkey, duck & rabbit, because of his yin deficiency, and those meats are more "yin" than the others (though no meat is really yin). Anyway, I digress LOL.

Chumley is not specifically on a vitamin C supplement. He may well be at some point in the future, but we're addressing his yin deficiency and his spleen Qi deficiency first (making very good progress!), his dental needs, and then we'll go from there.

I don't know to what extent he gets vitamin C from the herbs he's on. This is what he's taking:

Prosperous Farmer: http://www.kanherb.com/cons_pi_kh_pr...uctNameId=1388 We've bumped him from one table 2x a day to one tablet 3x a day. This is used to address his spleen Qi deficiency (and it appears to be working well!).

Consolidate Qi: http://www.kanherb.com/cons_pi_kh_pr...uctNameId=1388. This controls his diarrhea (and does an excellent job of it!). He gets 3 drops 4x a day.

The next steps are treating his gingivitis and his dental (May 10), and then from there we'll see. But part of the reason we chose Chum's vet is because she's also trained in western herbs, not "just" Chinese Medicine, and we're going to explore following Bud's FIV therapy.

I REALLY recommend you read through this whole site. I note in advance that Bud's parents say that if they had to do it over again, they'd follow the 2nd protocol and skip the first. But Bud's virus fell to below detectable levels, and that's our goal.

http://www.fivtherapy.com

Interestingly, licorice is in both of Chumley's current treatments.

But you can see, vitamin C figures prominently in the treatment. But they rotate ALL the supplements, and the vitamin C was given every other month.

I'm sure you can find a holistic vet near you if you want to pursue it further. I found Chum's by searching at http://www.ahvma.org. We just really wanted a partner that knows what they're doing walking this path with us.

Laurie - thanks for the link to Bud's Therapy
http://www.fivtherapy.com

Thank you so much for posting back! This information is VERY helpful. After I posted last night I went back and looked at Curly's food- I do also feed him only wet food (fortunately he is not big on dry). Anyhow the natural balance limited ingredient duck and venison has salmon oil in it. I had bought some other food and one of them happened to be Instinct with Lamb and no fish oil as far as I could tell, so I gave him that.
I totally understand what you said about rotating his food. It seemed like his allergies developed when I was feeding him a lot of the natural balance chicken and liver. It was complicated tho, because he did also have extremely dirty ears which the vet treated first. Unfortunately they have not done a skin scraping yet. I did treat him with revolution about a month ago though. I am tempted to just find a microscope somewhere and use some scotch tape to look for mites in the off chance his immune system has not fought them off.

My goal has been to just get him stabilized so he has more options for his future, whether outside again (am not sure what Ace and William will think, but he has been careful not to tick them off) or with an adoptive family. His temperament seems ok for either, but I have some TNR to do before he is an outdoor boy, as there are some tough kitties out there at the moment and he could not stand up to the unneutered ones. We think he is about one and a half years old.

Here is Curly's you tube video. This is when I first brought him inside about two and a half months ago, which is also before he started to do his scratching. . Curly also weighs about 12 lbs- he is lean and large, very long legs LOL.

I also wondered if the thing with his fur and itching was/is part of his transition inside. You can see him scratching on the video too. Now he looks a lot more scraggly around his neck from gouging at it, and from the bare skin where the Revolution took his fur off. I feel so bad for him. Also I noticed yesterday that he has tremors, like chills, and from reading online I think maybe it is from the steroid injection.

I have been on Bud's site and hope to be able move in that direction with Curly too. I'm not sure where to get those meds but thought it would be good to try and start with the vitamin C, and also I got powdered bone meal for his calcium and homeopathic allergy pills (from 2docs in AZ). I noticed that the ingredients in the allergy pills are a lot of the same ones mentioned on Bud's site, lower amounts but I think that is ok for now.

For the TNR, I have a bunch of traps and two different groups who I can coordinate with for vetting. I may try and put them in the front (where I can hear them from Curly's room) and hope my own two feral kitties or raccoons/skunks/possums do not go into them, ugh. I was thinking about getting a drop trap but I don't see the other feral kitties during the day of course. After I posted last night, William had a fight with one of them. He is ok but it just highlights the urgency. :-(.

My hope/dream is that my other two neighbors will help me look after these other feral cats so it is not just me. Their territory spans at least a 5-house area and I still need to go to Curly's old house and leave a note for them offering to do all the vetting for any cats they feed, and asking them to come on over and have a beer or something. Yes I am SO bummed that their cat is my problem now, but my two cats are outdoors and I'm sure they will find themselves yet another cat if I don't somehow try and intervene. I fully expect kittens around here otherwise. :-(

I am going to try rotating wet foods as you suggest, and the brands you suggest, and try to avoid fish for the moment as it seems to be a trigger of some kind. I have used the wellness pouches for my own kitties (they give my kits runny stools tho) and also I want to try the zyrtec. Thank you for the info on the Benadryl, a friend in rescue suggested it and I am glad for your feedback (understanding all kitties are different, it still helps). I too have allergies to everything, the cat/dog allergy is extremely mild though.

Just a quick FYI, though I think I mentioned it earlier in the journal here. The zyrtec didn't help Chum. But for allergies that affect the skin, it is supposed to be the best option and has helped a lot of kitties. The dose to start with is 1/4 pill am and 1/4 pill PM. We worked Chum up to 1/2 AM and 1/2 PM (so a full human dose just divided into two), but it really didn't help him. He ate it in a pill pocket, no problem (and no foaming!!!!). It also doesn't make them dopey like benadryl can/does.

FYI, I do feed them the seafood Holistic Select, but it's the only seafood anything they get. i feed four meals a day. (That's because I took them off of free feeding and it was the only way to prevent a complete revolt LOL, but I work from home, so it's doable). As I rotate about 12 different "flavors" between the three basic brands (if you exclude the c/d), they get any given food about once every three days.

But if the fish is a trigger, I'd forego the seafood flavor of the holistic select (I do feed it but not the Salmon & Shrimp). I don't know if Brewer's yeast is a problem for your boy. It doesn't seem to be for Chumley. But it is an ingredient in the Holistic Select foods.

You may also have to avoid two of the three Wellness pouches I give our gang. The only three I feed them are the Chicken, Crab & Herring; Chicken, Duck & Shrimp; and Turkey & Duck. The rest all have potato starch as an ingredient up there on the list, and even though it's not a large part of their diet, I avoid it because of its association with the risk of diabetes.

Of course, you can use some of the wellness canned products instead (the only ones without seafood are the chicken and the turkey). Our cats just don't like them. (I also don't understand why they bother including beta carotene; they have vitamin A in there as a supplement, and cats can't process beta carotene into vitamin A. Strange).

Notably, almost ALL of these foods have kelp as an ingredient, so keep that in mind. I don't know if it's a problem for your Curly, and if it is, I don't know that it would be in an amount that is a problem. I have no idea if cats that have a problem with seafood have a problem with kelp, but thought I'd mention it.

I'd love it if you kept me (us LOL) posted on what you're doing with Curly and how he's responding!

OH! Something else I'd like to mention. I mentioned coconut oil in passing somewhere in this journal. Because he's doing so well with this treatment, and his vet wasn't familiar with its use, we passed on continuing with it.

BUT, there are a LOT of arguments for coconut oil (a very specific type) being REALLY helpful in treating allergies. It's got antibacterial properties, it's got antifungal properties (it's a great treatment for Candida!), and it's got anti-inflammatory properties. One of its main components is Lauric Acid, which is one of the super beneficial ingredients in mother's milk. It is about 2% ALA, which cats cannot process, but it's just not that straightforward, because Flax Seed, which is in almost everything "grain free" is approximately 50% ALA. My vet explained why it's not damaging their livers and helps them process fats efficiently... the discussion was over my head.

But if you can get to a Walmart (or order it online), you can try Nutiva Coconut Oil. It doesn't HAVE to be this brand, but it's the easiest one to find of the type you would need. Because for it to work, it MUST be organic, extra virgin, cold pressed coconut oil - pressed from fresh coconut, NOT dried chopra (which is what almost all coconut oil is made from - they dry the coconut then press it). This is supposedly an excellent treatment for allergies. Chumley didn't like it very much, unfortunately, or we'd probably already know whether it worked or not. Several other of our cats LOVED it, however - they just don't have allergies, so I saw no reason to give them the extra fat.

If you want to try this, start with like 1/2 a teaspoon and make sure it doesn't affect his GI system first, and let him get used to it. You'd want to work up to a tablespoon a day. I heated it up in the microwave to melt it to add to Chum's food (and it is used for high heat frying, and now I know why. It took like three 15-second rounds to melt the small amount!). The kitties who liked it didn't need it melted and just ate it.

And as a P.S., there was a "study" done in... the Philippines, I think it was: a 14-patient study in HIV patients that indicated (raw, organic, extra virgin, cold pressed from fresh coconuts) coconut oil reduced the viral load. So another reason it might be worth a shot.

My concern was how it might interact with everything else in the Bud's Therapy treatment... again, just another reason we're working with a holistic vet.

May 10, 2010, Tuesday. Chumley went for a follow-up appointment, to get a shot of convenia for his gingivitis as I'm not going to be able to do the honey on his gums, and for his non-anesthetic dental.

Dental: It took about 15 minutes. He did great, and now I know I don't need to worry about anesthesia for teeth cleaning... just WOW. !!! Not too much plaque build-up, and his teeth look GREAT! I'm now "on the list," so when they schedule the return of the non-anesthesia teeth cleaning people, I'll get a call so we can schedule Chum and Spook (the only two kitties that need cleaning done every six months).

Check-up. OK, he gained an ounce over the last month. I need to trim down the amount of food I feed him. But he looks, feels, and sounds GREAT. His "pulses" sound great, his tongue is no longer swollen at all - he's just doing FABULOUS! He did have wax build-up in his ear, but it's just wax - no yeast, no fungus - so now we just have to clean his ears occasionally (we already have to do this for Flowerbelle).

The plan - keep him on the three pills of Prosperous Farmer daily. I now give him four drops of the Consolidate Qi at each meal (four times a day). Bring him back in two months so she can check on his gums and general health. Bring him back in four, when we'll probably do the retest of the Western Blot. He tested transient the first time, and we decided not to do the follow-up until we'd managed all his other health problems.

He also had his three treatments of Profender (each three weeks apart)... so he should be free of parasites now.

Thank you SO much for this thread! I also rescued a FIV+ cat from being PTS back in March (has it really only been two months? O__o) and this thread will be very helpful in the future I'm sure.

I rescued him actually from a vets office, where he was cooped up in the back room in a cage for three months, and had blown up to a whooping 22lbs. X__X (I'm starting to think weight gain might be a side effect of FIV.)

A few weeks after I got him, I switched him to Before Grain (and soon, probably Natural Balance and Wellness for variety), and it has helped him just slide the weight off like it was nothing. Last time I weighed him, he was 18lbs 13oz.
A question I had though, did I read correctly that one of the vets you saw was happy Chumley had gained some weight? Was that to help him out if he stopped eating for some reason or something else? Are you still going along with that? (Grim has a long way to go still, so I'm not worried just yet.)

Luckily, the only health issues I've had with him are chronic ear infections. :[ I got a prescription of Mometamax from my vet and when I notice he's got some brown stuff in his ears, I give him a drop of it and clean them out a bit and then he's fine for a few days and then its back again. Any suggestions for that?

Keep us updated on Chumley

Actually, the vet was happy he's got a chunky frame, not that he was overweight. At the time, he wasn't - well - maybe a pound. He weighs about 15.5 pounds now, and she wants me to get him back to the 12-pound area.

Actually, it's worse for them if they're overweight if they hit a patch of inappetance (which is more common with FIV than the weight gain thing. I think it's likely your boy ate at the vet because he was stressed and bored. It's also something rescue kitties that didn't eat regularly for a long time do - eat whenever there's food available). You may know this already, but cats' digestive systems are not "designed" the same way people's are, and they are not efficient processors of their own fat. In fact, hipadic lipidosis (fatty liver disease) is a particular problem in overweight cats that get sick, because their livers can't process the fat their bodies are releasing when they stop eating. So that is GREAT that you're bringing his weight down, because if he ever does go through a period of inappetance, if he's an appropriate weight, his risk of developing a problem with his liver is much reduced.

Chum had one ear infection, and it cleared up with .... I don't remember the med. I'd have to go back to see if I documented that one here, I might have missed it. Chum does apparently have a problem with waxy build-up, but that just requires us cleaning his ears with a q-tip every few days.

All I really know is that Chumley was a mess when we first rescued him. Our regular vets (who are fabulous!) weren't really able to solve his problems - which is why we decided to pursue finding a vet (a DVM) also trained in alternative treatments. I really believe that any immune system problem can really benefit from eastern "medicine," because western medicine just doesn't manage it very well. It's an entirely different... foundation in "cause and effect," and immune-related problems just seem to do well with a (well-trained) eastern approach. These chinese herbs have worked miracles for Chum.

Chum certainly is a very lucky boy to have you caring for him . It is amazing how far you have taken him since last summer. Your the best . I too believe in the eastern medicine, it is working miracles for my dog, Wilbur. I am excited about trying the Prosperous Farmer for him . Thanks for mentioning. SEE!!!!! When you post about health issues you are going through with Chumley, it helps many others at the same time. So, thanks for that too

We've just started using it for Lazlo too. I'm hoping it'll help his hairball/vomiting problem. I'll keep ya posted.

Counting on it

Well, today is the 2nd year anniversary of Chumley moving in full time (he had his own trailer when he was first rescued: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/217397/help-charlie-is-fiv ).

...and things have come a LONG way for him! At this point, apart from being FIV+, he's in PERFECT health. Turns out the non-anesthetic dental was a BAD idea ( http://www.thecatsite.com/t/230826/chumley-goes-in-for-his-dental-tuesday/30#post_3190776 ). The poor baby suffered unnecessarily with teeth that needed to be extracted. BUT... they're out now, and his gingivitis is gone.

In the 2nd half of 2011, I upped the quality of the canned food I was feeding them. They ate mostly Before Grain, Nature's Variety, Evo, and Weruva. I kept Chumley on the Consolidate Qi (to control the diarrhea) and the Prosperous Farmer pills (for his "allergies" - the "spleen Qi" and "extreme Yin deficiency.").

I transitioned all the cats to raw food in January of this year. I stopped giving him the Consolidate Qi a few days after they were 100% on raw. Chumley didn't need the Consolidate Qi any longer. A few weeks later, Chumley decided he didn't want to eat the Prosperous Farmer pills (in the pill pockets) any longer. He loved those - there were like special treats before. :lol3: There has been no return to itching/overgrooming, and it seems Chumley no longer has a problem with "allergies." :lol3:

He's on no meds of any kind, herbal or otherwise.

He weighs 14 pounds now (down from the 15.5 last year), and I'm going to slowly reduce his food to bring him down to the desired 12 pounds. It's just so hard not to spoil him. He LOVES food - even though he is NOT a chow hound, which is amazing given how food-aggressive he was before we trapped him. He's the gentle giant, our fat-headed sweetie pie. :heart3:

Congratulations, Chunky Monkey..... :rub: :heart3: arty4: Chum knew he struck gold when he found you, Gary and his brothers and sisters . No more trailer..... He was ready for his happy new indoor only life. :lovegrin: The raw diet he is on now is a true testament of how it helps heal the body and strengthen the immune system. I love that he is thriving so!!!!!

It has been a magnificent journey with many joyful moments and SOooooooo many more to come. He really is our smiling TCS baby face :lol3: :rub:

It is hard to have to limit the piggies calories. I have a few over here.... Hard to say NO.... Teaches me some lessons in will power too when it comes to food :lol3: Give Chum Chum a cookie from me :happy3:

P.s. Wow... it has been over a year since the last posts in Chum's thread! A lot has happened since then and ALL miraculous too