Didn't Learn ...[Long Drama!]

As many of you remember, I had a miserable wench of a SIL for 4 months before she walked out on my BIL, citing that she stopped loving him before they got married and had enough. My BIL has been such a changed person - back to the laid back fun loving guy he was before he met the SIL. He's even been able to have a BIL-SIL relationship with me again, which is nice because we're both 23 and hadn't been able to really hang out since '07.

Well, Facebook, the evil of the Internet, gave away that they are speaking again, right around Thanksgiving. I asked my MIL about it, and she was vague, saying "I dont know, he just wants closure that's all." I bought it for all of 10 seconds, because I noticed she kept changing the subject or avoiding my questions. Last night, hubby decided to ask her. She did the same thing - avoid most of the time. Hubby told her "I dont like this, she's a manipulator, we all saw it. The family does NOT need them talking again because she'll weasel her way back in." MIL just kept avoiding it, so he texted BIL and asked him straight out - "Are you trying to get back together with SIL?" MIL said "we have to let him do what he wants to do and support him." But hubby and I both told her we WILL NOT support his decision to be with her again, and if he chooses to make that mistake twice, we will not be there to help pick up the pieces like we were the first time. She isn't welcome in our lives again. Hubby told her "if you s*** on my family once, you don't get another chance to do it. She's not reentering our lives and I will not lift a finger for anything to do with her."

BIL's reply to the text: "Well we are going to give marriage counseling a try [something that she absolutely refused when she left]. I am taking it slow and making sure it is what I want, and that we can be 100% happy forever." *face palm* How can you forget what she said? He always told us how he was glad she freed him early, would not go back to her unless she made a 180º change in her ways, etc. Hubby messaged him back and said "Just my opinion, this is a bad idea. You can do better. You are too young to deal with this crap." No reply.

Hubby figured his dad would be upset with this, and that is how we found out they were hiding it from us. FIL told him "I'm not at liberty to speak about the situation." So hubby said he already knew about it, he wanted to know why they are sitting back and letting it happen again. FIL said the same as MIL - "just gotta let him do what makes him happy." (Yeah, because always yelling at the phone after you hang up from your wife is a positive, happy thing. Being controlled to the point you aren't allowed to hang out with your SIL is a happy thing. Being told you were no longer loved anymore and being walked out on is a happy thing.... gimme a break!) Hubby told FIL that he'd have to deal with the situation because they'd be living in his house. FIL said that BIL will NOT be living in the house again with her, he can leave to live with her (which is what he'd be made to do anyway, she is living with her mom, friend, and friend's baby right now in an apartment - great situation to fix things in!)

I talked with my TL at work, who is a psychology major. The first thing he said was "It's a trap!" Thanks for the expertise He gave us suggestions on how to find out what's really going on with BIL by talking to him alone - suggesting that hubby sit down brother-to-brother and have a good talk with him about the situation to prevent him from being crushed again. But hubby and I both know that BIL never listens to a darn thing my hubby says to him, regardless of what it relates to! So my TL suggested he and I go grab some drinks and chat, while I remain civil about SIL's existence (though BIL knows I cannot stand her, he even said he could tell none of the family liked her). That way I can say "at least I tried to help him." You cant FORCE things to work if they aren't compatible and meant to work He should trust me on this, I've been there!

We may come off as horrible, but from the outside, you could really see what the relationship was like for 3.5 years and how miserable my BIL was, and how much he changed back to his old happy self since August. He's admitted he wasn't happy before, but is having a great time now. I hope he doesn't rush into things, or ruin the separation requirements (my TL gives them til the 19th to go on a date, and the 24th before something separation-restarting happens, he even says he'll put his paycheck on it). Hubby is very upset to see this happening, see his family just act like its buying a cruddy car or spending money on something stupid - not the fact he can really mess up life after being given a second chance. My "SIL" is baby-craving - that's her ultimate dream and she admitted that she wanted to start trying in Jan '11 - so why not reel in the ex-hubby now? I KNOW that if they get back together she'll wind up pregnant (since I'm sure she'll use intimacy to lure him back in, then stop when she gets what she wants again, like last time). And then they'll be in a bigger mess.

Oy! So yeah, hubby and I are the epitome of evil now, but figured some of ya followed the drama since before their wedding, and this shocking update rocked all sorts of things. Lets just hope he stays true to his "taking it slow and figuring it out" thing before doing anything dumb. Again.

Awww Tara Im sorry...That SUCKS soooo bad. Im on your side though...actually come to think of it I was curious the other day as to how this whole thing was panning out for your family and BIL.

Hopefully he wisens up but at the same time you have to let him fall on his face. Noone can clean up his messes but himself and unfortunately if that means letting him learn his lesson the hard way with that manipulating back stabbing skeevball then so be it. But if you and hubby stand your ground on how you feel and dont back down maybe just maybe that will help hiim make the right choice and stay away from her. I hope for any unborn childs sake they do NOT have any kids because the last thing he needs she needs or your family needs is the drama from her but also the baby drama that will surely happen.




I really hope that your BIL doesnt go back to her who knows maybe if he does the counseling with her he will see what a skeever she really is once and for all.

Skeevball I love it. New describing word to use when referring to her talking to the hubby (we currently use "troll").

Yep we are gonna let him fall on his face this time. Last time we all teamed up to help him get through it, make sure he was okay, helped him get resources, lawyer referrals, helped with paperwork, etc. He spent $400 for the separation papers to be filed!

I dont know if my in-laws are using the "fall on his face" approach as well, but they seem to think we are horrible for how we feel about it (to the point they didnt tell us ) We need to let our stance be known to him I guess, BEFORE he decides to go through with it so he knows how strongly we feel and can ask questions of his own if he doesn't want to listen to any advice or talk it out first.. I have never invited her to any functions, she's always invited herself (mainly because she was BIL's wife and it was sort of a given at the time, but won't be happening in the future if they get together again).

I was under the impression counselors usually push for reconciliation, but my friend told me I may be surprised - a marriage counselor told her sister to get divorced! (Though she didn't listen, but still isn't a happy wife either).

Feel free to use my ever favorite descriptive word. LOL


Well I would think that a counselor would give advice in regards to what is BEST for the clients not what is socially acceptable or whatever..granted nowadays divorce is no big deal anymore. If you in laws cave to what is going on even if they arent pleased about it BIL will think you guys are jerks and there is nothing wrong with that majorly dysfunctional relationship. Hopefully the counselor advises for divorce. Sometimes its the best thing because people jump into marriage like its no big deal because hey if it doesnt work out they can divorce....Ughhhh that mentality irritates me Im of the mindset of one and done when it comes to marriage.

I agree. I dont plan on marrying again if things failed with my hubby. But BIL needs to also take a look at HAPPY relationships, where you can have fun and communicate. My in-laws have been together for 26 years and you can tell they love each other, talk, and go out/bowl together/take trips. Hubby and I have been together 6 and you can tell we love each other, talk, go on date nights, take trips. Those two, not at all. Yes everyone is different, but you can also just tell it was more aggravating than happy. Even friends noticed at cookouts and commented later.

The only reason he proposed was because she gave him an ultimatum, so basically doomed from the start

My MIL and FIL already resigned themselves to accepting and supporting whatever his choice is, whereas we refuse to, so we definitely look like the bad people and if/when BIL hears about our stance, he'll probably be angry with us. His mom already thinks we are pretty bad for saying what we said yesterday (she always used "but she's family" crap on me before, but I told her I didn't particularly care).

My TL said earlier "Rob is upset because he may have to watch his little brother get hurt again, which means he cares." I guess since hubby cant talk it out with his family because it'll fall on deaf ears, I'll let him talk with me because at least he can let it out and SOMEONE will listen even if it wont make a difference.

Listening to your hubby is probably the best thing you can do especially if his parents have seemed to just go with the flow.

Maybe you can take out a hit on her...J/K but seriously Ive got a nice big SUV and it would be nice to take a beach trip...LMAO


It would be nice to think she has changed but if this whole getting back together thing is all about having a baby not only is she a manipulator but shes an idiot as well and sorry but so is your BIL if he goes along with it. If he has fallen for one ultimatum already then he might fall for another. I remember the last thread you had about this and its a crappy situation I just hope that thru all this family drama you and your hubby can really show your BIL what a happy healthy relationship is like and he learns from that and realizes thats what he wants, not some nitwit walking all over him and making him miserable.

Hubby just came home, and said he is SO disappointed. He doesn't even want to buy the Marlin Goose Gun (like the gigantic one we have) for him for Xmas anymore because he's so disappointed, but its still his brother. Which is true. He went over to look for some bushings in the garage at his parents', but I know he's inside talking to them cuz the garage light isn't on and it's quite dark out I guess he'll say what he wants to say to them, see if they care, and then I'll talk to him just so we can get out our thoughts. We thought BIL would have realized what a happy healthy relationship is, but my grandma thinks he is too weak to not be controlled by someone. She understands hubby just wants to save his brother and feels he can't. (My grandma said she was the same with her sister, who was in a bad marriage, and tried to commit suicide 3 times during it).

So the truth came out tonight when hubby talked to the in-laws.

SIL and her mother cannot stand to live together anymore, so she is basically trying to find somewhere else to live. My in-laws told BIL that he can move out with her somewhere, but they are not allowing her to live in their home again because that's what she did last time - used them for a place to live for the most part. When her mom got the apartment, that's when she walked out on BIL... She claims she won't move back in anyway because she's too embarrassed to. It's just "funny" that she suddenly wants to be with BIL again when she needs somewhere for her horrible self to live and knows he's soft hearted.

Hubby is visibly upset and it makes me so angry He told his parents that we will not have holidays together with her present, not even at their house. That's how much we despise her for what she's done to the family. We stomached her before, but finding this new tidbit out is unacceptable. Apparently his parents told BIL it was a horrible idea also, but are going to roll with his decision in the end. I'm unsure how two part time jobs are going to pay all the bills associated with living in an apartment, it isn't all that cheap here ... but I guess you gotta figure it out on your own.

Hubby also told his MIL he is very upset with how she lied to both of us for 2 days. I am pretty annoyed with that as well.

Thanks for letting me rant

Atleast its all out in the open. Hiding how you feel about something can only make the situation worse.

Maybe BIL will get the kick he needs to stay away by how you guys are reacting and how you feel.....but if he is a person who 'needs' to be controlled then probably not. Im sorry things are so crappy right now...especially in the swing of the holidays it just puts a damper on the whole happy woo hoo deal.

I told BF about the whole situation deal type thing thats going on and he is all for a vaca to SC...lol... He was actually in a situation similar to this the summer before last and it caused a huge riff between a lot of people. He sympathizes big time with how your hubby feels.

Aw Tara, you just rant all you want; it feels so much better to get it out and let other people give you their opinions. Having been involved in a truck-load of family drama myself in the past year, I understand.

Thankfully, your inlaws have enough sense not to let your BIL and the troll move in with them again. I agree with your assessment of this situation 100%---the troll ( I just like using that word; do you mind if I steal it for my family's situation? ) needs a place to live and she wants to be pregnant. Who better to fall back on than your BIL. I truly and sincerely hope he realizes that's what she's up to before he reconciles-temporarily-with her. I think you're right-once she gets what she wants she'll leave him again (or kick him out, if they have their own place).

Having said that, my advice is to step back, take a deep breath, and let your BIL fall on his face. You just can't tell some people anything, especially when they think they're in love. Be there to pick him back up and brush him off. I do know how frustrating it is to watch someone you care about making mistake after mistake after mistake. But, I have come to realize that there is nothing you can do about it.

I really hope this situation works out for your BIL and that it doesn't include the troll. And any time you need to rant, you go right ahead!

You know darlin', I know EXACTLY how you feel as I went through almost the EXACT same thing recently! My brother broke up with his evil fiance who I haven't been able to stand from the get go, my brother and I were developing a great relationship, and then one day, Facebook proved that they were talking again. It's the same thing! I called Mom, voiced my opinion and she got defensive and said we have to think of my brother and his happiness. Was he happy when they fought everyday for 3 years? Was he happy when she put him AND his family down?

Anyway, thank GOODNESS he saw the error of his ways and decided they were better off as friends, and I hope that your BIL will wake up and do the same.

You know...I think the phrase "Whatever makes them happy" is really used to say, "I don't want to create a rift and so I'm going to support the choice, whether the person is really happy or just thinks they are."

My brother's wife was horrible to him. I don't want to get into too much detail, since it's all in the past, but she ran him ragged. And while it was extremely sad and upsetting when she passed away, my brother admitted later on that he was relieved that the drama was over.

I've never seen my brother happier than he is now, but I really don't think he would have gotten out of the relationship if she hadn't passed away.

Originally Posted by 3CatsN1Dog

I told BF about the whole situation deal type thing thats going on and he is all for a vaca to SC...lol... He was actually in a situation similar to this the summer before last and it caused a huge riff between a lot of people. He sympathizes big time with how your hubby feels.

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Come on down to SC, I love visitors! My kitties do too

Hubby said he's gonna try and see what's on his brother's mind and give him advice if he wants it this weekend. If he doesn't want it, he'll just let his feelings be known (if my in-laws haven't already told him), and let him do what he wants, and if it ends up being reconciliation, watch him fall on his face, and wait for the next time he calls us about her walking out. I wish he could open his eyes and see how fishy it is she runs back into his life wanting to fix what never really was there (according to herself!) as soon as she needs a new place again. He wants to stay with the company he currently works for, but can't get a full time job there until he finishes his associates degree. If he moves out of my in-laws house now, he most likely won't be able to finish school (almost there, too), because he'll probably have to get a second job to pay the bills (when she lived at the in-laws house, he had to pay all the bills [car insurance, gas, food, credit card, etc] while she kept her money to herself and blew it on shopping sprees). And then if her plan goes accordingly, he'll never be able to finish because he'll have to support her. I really hope he isn't being blind to all of this... it's also very easy for her to lie to people, so she can probably openly lie to the counselor about her "true feelings" and yadda ya.

Originally Posted by libby74

( I just like using that word; do you mind if I steal it for my family's situation?

)

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Certainly feel free to use "troll" Hubby came up with it one day and I was like "what?" He's like "-SIL-" Ohhhh that's a great term! Maybe I'll call her Skeevball troll ... hehe.

"whatever makes him happy" mean he has to learn on his own, and he hasn't yet. And nothing you can say or do as a family will change that. If he wants to get back together with her, he will. If you try to alienate him because of his decision will be losing a BIL and a friend. I've learned that the harder you try to talk sense into someone the more they run to the thing that will destroy them.

Yeah, people make stupid decisions. You may or may not agree with them. But he's 23. No offense, but that is still SO young. I made HUGE mistakes at that age and still managed to survive and be a reasonably responsible adult.

While I agree that she sounds like poison, it is ultimately HIS decision, not his family's. It is HIS life and HIS responsibility. Just shake your head and move on. Not including her in family things is your right, but think about how that will make him feel. My advice is just to sit back and let it play out.

Originally Posted by calico2222

"whatever makes him happy" mean he has to learn on his own, and he hasn't yet. And nothing you can say or do as a family will change that. If he wants to get back together with her, he will. If you try to alienate him because of his decision will be losing a BIL and a friend. I've learned that the harder you try to talk sense into someone the more they run to the thing that will destroy them.

Yeah, people make stupid decisions. You may or may not agree with them. But he's 23. No offense, but that is still SO young. I made HUGE mistakes at that age and still managed to survive and be a reasonably responsible adult.

While I agree that she sounds like poison, it is ultimately HIS decision, not his family's. It is HIS life and HIS responsibility. Just shake your head and move on. Not including her in family things is your right, but think about how that will make him feel. My advice is just to sit back and let it play out.

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I haven't tried to talk to him at all about it. I talked with him after she left him, helped him sort it out, and listened when he wanted to rant about what a horrible person she'd been to him. I don't know if hubby is going to talk to him today or not (they're going to work on BIL's car together) - he said he wanted to get a feel for what he's thinking, if he realizes what he's going to have to think about when making this choice (not just "take wife back or not", but the possibility of having to move out and hope he has enough money to support himself and her living in an apartment and paying all bills associated with it, if not - then giving up school to get a 2nd job) since he doesn't always look at the big picture, and if it's really worth going through it again. He doesn't plan on "forcing" him to make a decision, just let him know how he feels as his brother and give him an opinion from the outside. He can take it or leave it.

It will probably make BIL feel like crud knowing she is excluded from our lives, but at the same time, if he chooses to take her back, he'll be going into it knowing its how we feel, it wont be a surprise to him when she's left on the doorstep or we don't show up for the holiday until she is out of the vicinity. She did a lot of miserable things to my in-laws, and they are unforgivable by my hubby. Honestly, what she used to say about my MIL in front of BIL should have been an issue to him, and I'm surprised he never stood up for his mom (his cousin was with them, and threatened to knock her out if she ever said such things about her aunt again in front of her). His extended family is livid at how things happened, and I doubt it'll ever be the same for any of them.

I dont necessarily want to end my relationship with BIL, but I will never accept his (ex)wife into my life or home again, and however that plays out, it plays out. He's not "allowed" to be my friend when he's with her, so if that's the route he chooses, it'll be back to no BIL-SIL relationship anyway. We used to hang out and talk a lot before he was with her, then for 3.5 years we had pretty much NO relationship (not by me avoiding SIL, either. If he was seen talking to me, she would CALL him and yell at him to get back to the house (200ft away). If he was in our house talking to hubby, she would call and demand he get back to the in-laws house), as soon as she was out the door in July, we hung out and were able to actually talk again.

You can tell my BIL is young even if you didn't know his age. It also shows how different maturity levels can be in people ... I'm 23 as well, been married almost 3 years, and have always been "more mature" than most people at my age. I got a lot of the early 20s stuff out of the way around 15-17 (drinking, partying, etc). Not really "trying" to be older than I was, my grandma just raised me to pretty much be more mature and aim for what I want, when I want. I wish he would take a second and look at his brother's (hubby) success and actually ask him for advice. But yes, he will make his mistakes on his own, so be it. I just hate watching someone get taken advantage of for the second time.

I just need somewhere to rant about it , because my in-laws are pointless to rant to (MIL will stick up for it in her "keep everyone content" way, FIL is never home and when he is he doesn't want to talk about the failure that is happening), and hubby is so upset by it that I let him bring it up. Even -MY- family can't stand her and when she invited herself to my Xmas dinner last year, it was quite awkward.

I really do feel bad for your whole family. When one person basically becomes an outcast, especially if it's of their own making, all you can do is sit back and hope for the best. I hope your BIL doesn't get sucked in to the troll's dramas again, but it sounds as if he's a willing participant. When things break apart again, I know you and your hubby will be there to help him pick up the pieces---again. Like the 'daughter-drama' going on in my own family, you have to let things play out without interfering just to stay sane. It took me a while to come to that realization, but I've decided that, for now, I have more important things to worry about. I guess stupidity just has to run it's course.
Hope your drama settles down soon.

Hubby took his brother out to dinner to chat. He gave him his concerns, told him how it looks really bad that she's coming back now that she has no where to live (BIL agreed he's thought about that a lot), and that he needs to be 100% firm with what he wants for himself and the relationship if when talking of getting back together with her when they are with the counselor, and needs to stay firm even in the face of tears. Hubby told him he's afraid it's just lip service to get him back, then when he's snagged she will revert back to her old ways of ignoring him for days, intimacy as a weapon, and walking out again. He explained how we feel, and wanted BIL to know that he is against it but BIL has to do what he wants for himself.

Apparently my in-laws haven't made a "formal" decision on whether or not she can move back in if they get back together. BIL told them "she won't, because she's too embarrassed to." Hopefully it doesn't come to that, because all she did was complain and complain and complain, be nasty to them, all whilst not saving money to move out (I complained too, but I spent 3 years there versus her 1.5 yrs, *AND* we saved $20k before moving out).

Hubby confided in me that he really hopes it doesn't work out. He said BIL was receptive and not resistant to hear him out, and thinks he got through to him with his concerns and advice, but says we'll see. I repeated I stand my ground of keeping an "invisible restraining order distance" between her and I, with zero communication.

Edit: He also told BIL how he felt like he wasn't allowed to have a relationship with either of us when he was with her, and how that upset him/us. And that holidays would have to be separate - one at the in-laws without us, and one at our house without her. He seemed to understand that and not be too shocked about it.

Edit 2: Woohoo! BIL actually sought the advice I hoped he would He asked hubby how we stay so happy, because that is what he wants (basically SIL needs to make a HUGE change to even come close). Oh and SIL canceled their first counseling session this weekend - off to a splendid start.

Well it sounds like your BIL isnt going into this situation with his eyes closed. He seems to be super receptive to listening to your hubby about the concerns he has about them going forward with their marriage. Thats a good thing in my eyes. If he would have shut down and said la la la I cant hear you then it would have seemed pointless for you guys to even be concerned because he would just go his merry way with no concern for how anyone felt.

Is it malicious of me to feel happy that she canceled the first counseling session? I think that her doing that right off the bat regardless of what else she had going on just shows your BIL where her priorities are, NOT WITH HIM!!!!

for you Tara......I feel so bad for you having to go thru all of this basically all over again.

Originally Posted by 3CatsN1Dog

Is it malicious of me to feel happy that she canceled the first counseling session? I think that her doing that right off the bat regardless of what else she had going on just shows your BIL where her priorities are, NOT WITH HIM!!!!

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I grinned too.