Dennis is back from the vet! Holistic treatment of light URI? +Risks of Metacam?

Hey everybody!

So my after my last post about Dennis, I took him to the vet clinic.
RE:
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=222986

While we talked about my problems, and he wandered around the office rubbing his face on EVERYTHING he decided that the sink needed to get some Dennis on it- and he sprayed right there and then!! We laughed and the vet tried to get a urine sample out of the sink( but she didnt know if it was enough to do an analysis) (and said that he was being very frisky)

She gave him a good thorough exam.

I got his blood tested for FeLv/Fiv- NEGATIVE
and NO heartworms!

She declared that he may have a slight case of URI consdiering the sneezing. But his Lungs and Heart are in good form.

Considering the vet thinks he is very hormonal- I got his Pre-OP bloodwork done and he has an appointment for next week to get Neutered.

Hopefully that will subdue the spraying

She didn't suggest any medication. When I suggested L-Lysine she said it was worth a try.

So after all that he got his FVRCP booster vaccine and Purevax Rabies vaccine today - and a dose of Profender de-wormer.

I have a case of Profender to apply in two weeks from now.
I haven't done any reading about it so far but the vet said it covers tapeworms too.

Now that Ive done some reading, Im wondering if he really needs the 2nd dose of profender in 2 weeks? he doesnt seem to have any crazy reactions to it ( he does try and lick the spot and scratch a little, but it since it had dried he kind of stopped)
I'm just worried about any adverse effects.
He has already had one dose of advantage.
Should I be worried about Profender?



One thing I did want to mention that was the Orchidectomy ( Netuering) Procedure Estimate has a Metacam Injection (24hr pain relief) on the list of fees.

I was told in the last thread that Metacam was not safe for cats? Can I ask what the risk factors are- If there are any pain releif alternatives-
I feel bad because he will be in pain? But I dont like the sound of dangerous medications that aren't necessary.

Also- What are some good ways of getting his light case of URI under control in a holistic manner?

How should I treat him with L-Lysine and in what dosages? Should I mix it in with his wet food?

What does chicken broth do in terms of healing?

Is colloidal silver a proven remedy for URI in cats? RE: http://www.holisticat.com/uri.html ( Im not sure how much of this i trust?)

"Prevention ( of URI)

A raw diet is the best prevention as it helps build a strong immune system. Common sense precautions in the event of exposure are a must of course. If you have a cattery or a large multi-cat household, you might want to keep the feline URI 30C nosode on hand. Exposed cats can also get 1 dropper of Colloidal Silver, 1 Nettle capsule, and 250mg Lysine daily for a few days to keep them from getting sick."

I cant think of any more questions as ive been distracted by a streaching kitty in a fort i must go attend to now

At its worst, Metacam can kill. At its least, it can cause permanent and irreversible kidney damage.

http://www.metacamkills.com/

To help with the URI, you can use Evening Primrose Oil (1/4 teaspoon) to help with the sneezing. You can also give echinacea, but I'll have to check the dosage.

Good Lord.

Do most vets use Metacam after they neuter/spay kitties?

What would my alternatives be for pain relief?

I will call tomorrow to make sure I can take that off the list or i'll be going somewhere else for his surgery!

I've never had to give my girls or the little boy I just had neutered pain meds post spay/neuter. I'm not that familiar with pain meds, but there are many here who are. I think I've used Buprenex for pain with my older girl previously.

You also want to make sure they don't use Ketamine as the anesthesia. If they do, ask for another anesthesia.

Chicken broth is kinda like grannies chicken soup... there is stuff that science has now figured out that aids in killing things off

lysine comes in powder , paste and capsule... I mix it in the food or as a topper to dry food... 250-500 mg is a normal everyday dose... loading is 1000mg

bupernex( sp) is common here for pain... mine uses ketoprophen for pain in alot of cases

All medications have side effects. Metacam is no different. In moderation in a healthy cat, with the most minimal amount of doses given, most cats are perfectly fine.

None of my cats have dropped dead from it.
Now would I allow them to be repeatedly treated with it - no. Would I want any particular cat getting more than a couple doses - no.
But it is an anti-inflammatory medication that serves it's purpose, unless you'd prefer actual steroids be used. In which case there's a lot of sites and people touting the extreme risks of those, too.


Just to add: Talk to your vet about this. An internet forum shouldn't be your only source of information. Your vet is there to treat your cat and, yes, to talk to you about your cat's treatment. If you don't speak up, neither you or your vet will get anywhere.

Thanks for all of the info!

I just got back from the vet and saw the info about the Metacam pain medication so I didnt have time to ask her about it. I will be calling tomorrow.

Also- I know most vets have different opinions about medications etc. So i just like to get a broad spectrum of good information! Thats why I love the cat site oh so much already

Theres just so much mixed info and so many different opinions- its nice to hear everybodys.

A few questions:
What do you guys think about using profender dewormer for a 2nd time ?
He got Advantage Multi 1 month ago
Profender As of Today
AND ive been instucted to give him another dose in 2 weeks.

I was doing some reading in the forum and found this post ...
"It's hard to say if it was the Profender, but I have read online that pet owners have been told their cat has a heart murmur after Profender. Will probably stick to Drontal in the future for worm treatment."

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211712

so i wanted to get some opinions about this dewormer.

Also- On another Note:
Does avoiding pain medication after his neutering sound mean?
Id rather he is in a little bit of pain for 24hrs than have some adverse side effect from any sort of pain medication down the road....

No ... It has only been the last 10 or so yrs that vets started giving post spay / nueter pain meds ...

Originally Posted by mynameismilla

Also does avoiding pain medication after his neutering sound mean?
Id rather he is in a little bit of pain for 24hrs than have some adverse side effect from pain medication down the road....

Click to expand...

I've not used profender, so I can't offer an opinion on it. But honestly, I'd prefer one dose of an anti-inflammatory than to see a cat walking around in pain or possibly being in pain in the litter box and even having difficulty going because of it. (clenching muscles to poop an all). I would not do a second dose of it on a male cat as any swelling should be better by the next day.

But again, talk to the vet about it.

(Just to add: I've had adult male cats neutered and noticed they seem to get more sore back there than kittens tend to - probably why I'm more likely to agree to pain meds.)

Originally Posted by strange_wings

I've not used profender, so I can't offer an opinion on it. But honestly, I'd prefer one dose of an anti-inflammatory than to see a cat walking around in pain or possibly being in pain in the litter box and even having difficulty going because of it. (clenching muscles to poop an all). I would not do a second dose of it on a male cat as any swelling should be better by the next day.

But again, talk to the vet about it.

(Just to add: I've had adult male cats neutered and noticed they seem to get more sore back there than kittens tend to - probably why I'm more likely to agree to pain meds.)

Click to expand...

didnt meant to confuse. the Metacam was suggested for pain medication after his surgery next week. But he just got treated with Profender for worms today and its suggested that I de worm him again (at home) a week after surgery. So I will do some more research and see what I think. I may just wait and do it in about 3 weeks instead of 2 so he can fully recover from surgery.

Aw- He is sleeping right now, but it sounds like he is having troubles breathing through his nose. Like a little boy who had a cold and is breathing through clogged nostrils.

I hope I shouldnt be concerned. He can smell his food justt fine, and the vet looked in his nose today.

She said some cats have tear glands that run behind their nose and make kitty snot. So what would the best at home treatment be?

I think i will steam up the bathroom tomorrow and hang out with him in there for a while to get his nose goo loosened up so he can breathe easy.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

(Just to add: I've had adult male cats neutered and noticed they seem to get more sore back there than kittens tend to - probably why I'm more likely to agree to pain meds.)

Click to expand...

I'll be doing some research and seeing if my vet has buprenex available instead of metacam considering it has less of a risk factor.

Also Ive been doing some interesting reading regarding pain and pets-
http://www.caberfeidh.com/Pain1.htm
-Interesting read.

thanks so much everybody!

Originally Posted by mynameismilla

didnt meant to confuse. the Metacam was suggested for pain medication after his surgery next week. But he just got treated with Profender for worms today and its suggested that I de worm him again (at home) a week after surgery. So I will do some more research and see what I think. I may just wait and do it in about 3 weeks instead of 2 so he can fully recover from surgery.

Aw- He is sleeping right now, but it sounds like he is having troubles breathing through his nose. Like a little boy who had a cold and is breathing through clogged nostrils.

I hope I shouldnt be concerned. He can smell his food justt fine, and the vet looked in his nose today.

She said some cats have tear glands that run behind their nose and make kitty snot. So what would the best at home treatment be?

I think i will steam up the bathroom tomorrow and hang out with him in there for a while to get his nose goo loosened up so he can breathe easy.

Click to expand...

To help him breathe, run a vaporizer or take him into a steamy bathroom, close the door and sit in there with him until the steam dissipates. Just like with humans, the steam will help open up the nasal passages.

If he continues to be sick like this, do NOT have his surgery next week. He needs to be completely healthy before any type of surgery is performed.

Metcam has been used for so many years on so many of my cats without incident. I am currently compiling research on this issue for an article but I wonder if perhaps recently they changed the formula a bit? With the Internet, so much misinformation gets passed along without people even thinking about it- for example a cat that doesn't get spayed is rumored to be able to produce four hundred and seventy cats in seven years, which if you think about it and do the math is pure hogwash. But it was generated to help with the fight of "a billion songbirds are destroyed by cats a year" nonsense.

So always look beyond what you read. Currently, the latest scare for cat lovers is the "microchips cause cancer" scare. Again, looking deeper beyond what someone discovered on a blog or whatever will reveal that this just isn't true- or if it is, there a lot of cats and dogs walking around with "undiscovered" cancers.

Once my article is finished, I will post a link. But as I said- I have used it on cats over the years because it is the most common painkiller out there. It may have just been over-prescribed or something else, but not until all the facts are in will I make a conclusion. I heard about the study and the stats and posted the link- but I still have the medication in my refrigerator and I would use it if I absolutely had to just never long-term.

As far as Profender goes- I have used it in the past for hard to handle cats but wouldn't use it on house cats or others that I can handle. The studies on this drug are posted and they did have fatalities in the controlled studies here is the link http://www.drugs.com/pro/profender-t...-solution.html



Just keep your head about you when it comes to the care and well-being of the cats in your life or out in your yard and you should be fine.

^I'm sure you're right hissy. I wouldn't be surprised if you find out that the complications with it are dosage related as well as people not making sure a cat is healthy enough to have it in the first place (no underlying CRF for example).

(I too have wondered how they come up with those reproduction numbers. In the case of uncared for ferals, a kitten is lucky if it makes it to it's first year.)

I try to always refer to metacam as an anti-inflammatory. It does help with pain, but the reason it is often used is because it helps with inflammation. Your regular pain meds used in cats don't do that.

Originally Posted by stephanietx

If he continues to be sick like this, do NOT have his surgery next week. He needs to be completely healthy before any type of surgery is performed.

Click to expand...

I don't even think he should have been vaccinated while ill. I wonder why a vet would push that?

Originally Posted by strange_wings

I don't even think he should have been vaccinated while ill. I wonder why a vet would push that?

Click to expand...

To be honest I was thinking the same thing, but the vet did a really good job.
She took blood first,
Then did a full exam-
(looking in his eyes, nose , ears)
Then decided that he didn't need medication for any URI or UTi.
She gave his bladder a good squeeze and said there was no more urine in there and that it felt good.
She also didn't talk much about the urine analysis--Considering I was getting the Felv/Fiv blood test and PreOP work done I figured I would wait until I get the blood work results to see if anything was off.

SO considering all this- maybe he just has a really really light URI that is hard to spot at the vets because he is breathing normally when he is there? It just his clogged nose that im most concerned about.The comment the vet made about tear glands running behind the nose made sense- but this seems to be a little cold that hasn't seemed to pass yet.

I really don't want to put him on antibiotics if both vets think its just a light case of URi.

Considering he eats dry/wet food. I'm thinking maybe he just drinks a normalish to above average amount of water, and maybe since he is always in the mood to spray-

Could he just be storing the urine in his bladder so that he has some to spray with? ( kind of like a dog going on a walk who doesnt expell his whole bladder so he can pee on every fence post) And thats why he is going pee appx. 6 times a day. And i sware if its possible- he sprays/marks his litter box when its clean

He never strains, and the vet thinks that its more of a hormonal thing.

But I agree that he shouldn't have surgery so soon if his URI is still an issue in a few days. I will be trying the steam bath tonight. And picking up some L-lysine and chicken broth(with no salt) today in hopes that may be helpful.

He also had THE LOUDEST meows I have heard last night when I was going to bed. I had to get up twice because I thought he was dying!!! but when i got out of bed to say hi he would just start purring and playing/ biting me- I think he was teething? But it sounded like a really weird urgent meow.

ITs just so frustrating because I want to get him neutered asap- but I want to make sure he's healthy-

NOW! RE: Profender- it is scaring me a bit ...
"Foreign Market Experience: The following adverse events were reported voluntarily during post-approval use of the product in foreign markets: application site reaction (hair loss, dermatitis, pyoderma, edema, and erythema), salivation, pruritus, lethargy, vomiting, diarrhea, dehydration, ataxia, loss of appetite, facial swelling, rear leg paresis, seizures, hyperesthesia, twitching, and death."

"Profender Topical Solution Dosage and Administration

The recommended minimum dose is 1.36 mg/lb (3 mg/kg) emodepside + 5.45 mg/lb (12 mg/kg) praziquantel as a single topical dose. A single treatment is effective and a second treatment should not be necessary. If re-infection occurs, the product can be re-applied after 30 days.

1. Select the package that correctly corresponds with the body weight of the cat. (See Table below.)

[whats funny is that the internet chart and the chart i have in front of me from the package are different. And honestly the one I have one paper in front of me is making little to no sense.

I have a .70 ml dose. (15mg emodepside + 60 mg praziquantel)

He weighs 3.39kg.

ON THE PAPER I HAVE:

Cats weight
>2.5-5kg -

Volume of 0.70ml-
Empodepside (mg/kg bw) is 3-6 .......( NOT 15?!)
Praziquantel (mg/kg bw) is 12-24 ....... (Not 60!?)


ON THE WEBSITE this is what is says:

>5.5-11 lbs. ( He is 7.47 lbs)
Medium
\t0.70 ml
\t15.0 Emodepside(mg)
\t60.1 Praziquantel(mg)


The chart on the website makes more sense. But it is also saying that I only need to do one treatment?

I don't like giving drugs that aren't necessary or could cause harm.
It seems like one dose would have been good enough according to the website- and considering he was treated with advanage multi a month ago- im going to ask my vet it i can avoid giving the 2nd treatment of profender- we'll see what happens. Again- maybe I can just wait and give him a de-wormer in pill form in a month or so instead?

Thanks for answering all my crazy questions!!
Dennis loves you all!! I will have to post a picture for you guys

Hey Guys,

So I talked to the vet on the phone today about Dennis' blood work.

She said everything looked normal.

Except he does have a high-ish urea level. At 10.5
(She said 5.7-9.6 is normal)

Yet she also said if he wasnt fasting before the test,
and if he is on a high protein diet like Orijin and Merrek Wet food then its normal that it would be higher then the regular.

I spoke about Metacam- The vet said its safe. Considering its 24hr relifef and it has an anti-infamiltory its more convientant than buprenex.

But she did say that if I would like to treat him with either buprenex or tramadol I can. but its only 8hr pain relief so I would have to bring some home to give him and it may make him sedate and groggy. But she did mention she had one problem with an Older cat who got an injection of Metacam and had kideny issues aferwards.

She said that Metacam may be a problem if the pet is going under Anesthetic's and that since he will be getting a Ketamine and Valium mixture when he will be neutered that it would be ok.

Now I was told here not to use Ketamine with cats.

So what is the best procedure when looking to get him neutered?

I personally, will not use neither - all my kitties files have well marked no Metacam, No Ketamine.
There will be different opinions on it, but since the risks when things go wrong can be great, I prefer to err on the safe side. Just my 2 cents, FWIW.

maybe ask if they use isoflorine( someone help on spelling)

Originally Posted by hissy

With the Internet, so much misinformation gets passed along without people even thinking about it- for example a cat that doesn't get spayed is rumored to be able to produce four hundred and seventy cats in seven years, which if you think about it and do the math is pure hogwash.

Click to expand...

The figure I've seen actually states 420 THOUSAND cats in 7 years! Although this is from one cat AND her subsequent offspring. I believe it....

I once did the math for myself and found results that confirm that figure....of course, assuming a high survival rate. Like on a farm or in a hoarding situation---unfed ferals frequently don't survive, but well-fed farm cats can and do, especially if some or all are vaccinated. I've know people who moved to the country, got 2 kittens, and within 3 years were totally overrun by literally hundreds of cats.

Let's see if I can remember how I did the math.....8 kittens per female per year starting at 6 months, 50% of those kittens are female. So after one year you have the original female, her 4 female kittens, and their 8 female kittens. 6 months later there are 52 kittens born, half of them female, plus those 13. 6 months later, 104 kittens born, half female, plus the 65 previous cats. 6 months later, 208 kittens born, half female, plus the previous 169 cats, 6 months later, 416 kittens born, half female, plus the previous 377. That's 793 cats in 3 years, assuming all survive. Even if you figure in a reasonable death rate, it adds up quick. I'd go on to do all 7 years but it's too late for the math . Cats are professional reproducers. Don't underestimate an unspayed cat!

I know probably the majority of cats in the U.S. are spayed/neutered using Ketamine and Metacam. And most of them do fine. To be honest, I haven't even asked my vet what he uses. I've never had ANY trouble with the dozens of cats I've had fixed. So it's a choice you need to make. If you're not comfortable with it, try to find a vet that uses Isoflurane for the anesthetic (you still needs to check to see if he/she uses Ketamine as an inducing agent) and Buprenex for pain relief. The only time I've been picky about anesthetic is when I had my rabbit spayed (rabbits can ONLY have Isoflurane or Sevoflurane).

Oops! Ugh, I totally did the math wrong. I forget to account for the previous cats also having litters (told you it was too late for math!). I'll recalculate when I get the time. Those numbers are low. . .but you get the idea!