cosequin for bladder health?

there is no closer vet. it looks like her fur is growing back on her belly and her pees are getting bigger so i am assuming she is feeling better.

i don't know when blue's last urine culture was. the vet diagnosed the infection with blood work and physical evidence last time. i am sorry that i trusted my vet and gave her treatment without demanding more tests.

I don't mean to nag but the only sure way to definitely diagnose the presence of crystals in the urine is with a urine culture. I'm not sure about x rays. X ray will show stones, but don't know if they will pick up crystals.

Blood work will not tell you if there are crystals in the urine, nor will a physical exam.

Repeat UTIs, in my opinion, warrant a urine culture be done. And if no crystals are observed, then an x ray should be done to look for stones in the bladder.

I am not a vet. But have dealt with FLUTD a lot.

Hope Blue is feeling better. Must be very frustrating to have so little choice in vet care.

<edit> I want to reiterate, based on subsequent replies. Urine culture is needed. A urinalysis is just not complete enough.

It sounds like she's getting better, which is a good thing. Next time you go to the vet, you'll be better prepared. Just make sure she (Blue) continues to improve, doesn't start peeing in inappropriate places, and that her urine doesn't start to smell overly strong. When you go in November, you might want to go ahead and ask for a urinalysis and new blood work, just to be rule out anything serious.

Hi - late to the thread, but was interested since I've got a boy who was having box issue with occasional out of the box peeing, which the vet and I put down to stress, as a bladder scan and urinalysis revealed only tiny amounts of indeterminate debris, in the lab's words - then in September 2009 we did a ER-vet run since he was doing lots of itty bitty pees.

At that visit, his bladder was empty and based on my descriptoin, the ER vet gave him a pain killer and a course of Baytril, and told me to get in for a urinalysis with my regular vet post-antibiotic. Lo and behold, this time Dante did show struvite crystals. Looking back, I would bet he had a stressed, irritated bladder and had no other way of telling me what the problem was.

I'm thinking your vet was working off his knowledge of your cat and his own experience, but truly, I don't think twice yearly senior panels and exam, which include a urinalysis, is a bad thing. I know in this economy, some vets don't push it extremely hard, as they don't want their clients to feel like bad parents and not come in at all - but I can see you're a diligent parent. Maybe ask him his feelings on the subject - I would say if he says they're not a good idea, I'd be thinking about another vet.

What I would beg you to consider, just based on my experience, is to talk with your vet re dietary treatment - it sounds like you're not adding supplements without specific discussion, but I wonder if the vet has recommended any of the prescription UTI foods? While to a lay person, and based on 'internet' reviews, some of the foods may not look 'good', to me, the proof is in the pudding - a healthy cat and clean urinalyses. My guy is on Hills CD wet and dry - and so far, knock wood, all has been well. And, yes, I still examine the box anxiously twice a day, at least, for signs of nice big pees.

I agree with Otto - any change in diet, especially to a raw one, needs to be discussed with a vet and possibly a certified feline nutritionist. A lot of the vet schools in the US run web-based counseling sites - may be worth an investigation re Canadian-based schools to see what the cost would be, and if your vet would be open to a consultation over the phone or web for your cat.

A lot of people say raw diets have been great for their cats - but for one with a known condition, I'd want a lot of truly expert, authoritative help (and I'm talking VMD or certified nutritionist) to design and monitor any raw diet for my kitty.

For me, while the internet can be a great research tool, it can also be misleading, or downright wrong and/or dangerous - and a lot of nutritional suggestions don't have real authoritative research behind it. I know it's popular to slag off a lot of the manufacturers and vets re nutrition - but there are thousands of pets whose lives have been made more comfortable, or truly saved, by the prescription lines. I think it's well worth a good long talk with your vet, or getting a second or third opinion, either locally or from a vet school, before changing diets.

PS - just a thought, but if you baby does show any box aversion, trying Cat Attract litter is, I think, always worth a shot - especially if the cat has experienced pain in the box.

Good luck to you - I know how hard it is to scrape up the money and then find out that some of it seems wasted on food that won't work as expected, or tests that seem inconclusive - but sometimes it just happens that way. I'm blessed to live where there are lots of vets to choose from - but I'm sure there are parts of my neighborhood that are far inferior to living in a rural area. And I hate taking my kitties for more than the 5 minute ride to the local vet - I'd be in tears over the long drives you face.

right now i am feeding blue go! grain free canned food. she used the vomit DAILY like clockwork when she was eating cat chow and i have since been educated about food. i switched her to progressively better food and the vomiting has gotten less and less. right now she is vomiting about once every 1.5 - 2 weeks. i can't put her back on corn-based low quality food, even if it is Rx food. i can't risk her vomiting that much again. also, the only thing that Rx crystal food has ever done for my cats was to make frodo (my other cat) FAT! i have spoken to many vets and vet techs and they all agree, a good quality food that has meat in the first 3 ingredients and preferably grain free is all that is needed to keep crystals aways. while that has not worked for my friend's cat, who probably needs anti-anxiety meds, it has worked for my guys.

my vets do not discuss nutrition with me because they know that i have done A LOT of research on the subject. i have been feeding raw to my dogs for almost 2 years now and they are doing good. i know that cats are different and i plan to make the necessary adjustments for them for this reason. i have many knowledgeable contacts on other forums that have really helped me and my fuzzbutts.

i will take blue back to the vet for blood work and a urinalysis in november but as of right now i am going to continue to give her the meds she was prescribed and go from there.

believe me, i stress daily about my vet being so far away. i almost lost my ferret on the way to the vet this past july. he had a super fast growing tumor that wasn't there when he was at the vet 3 weeks earlier. i hate the thought of something like that happening again to another one of my pets. my vet is a very good vet that i trust with the care of my pets. she told me last time i was in that i have to stop stressing so much about it all or i will end up with a heart attack before i am 40. she understands that i want the best for my pets and that i provide for them everything that i possibly can.

Urine culture. not urinalysis. urine culture. I know I am nagging, and I promise I won't say it again after this. . But I can't stress it enough. A urine culture is what is needed to be thorough.

Glad she is doing better for now. Baytril (aka orbax) is good medicine.

i understand the difference between a culture and a urinalysis but the problem is that my vet may not be able to do a urine culture. i will only be able to do what the vet can do.

(when my dog was sick over christmas last year my vet had to send his fecal sample to the vet school in another province to get the testing done that was needed)

also, you should know that the money is not the issue here. i didn't get these tests done when i was at the vet on friday because it wasn't suggested to me. i didn't think to ask about them either. if blue is better (ie the fur grows back and her pees are nice and big) once the orbax is done i probably won't take her back to the vet until it is time for her yearly check up (january) but if she doesn't seem to be back to her normal self when the meds are done i will take her in in november.

and, i think that i will give the cosequin a shot when the orbax is done since it can't really do any harm to try.

Yes, unless you are dealing with a fully equipped hospital urine culture will have to sent out... It should not have to go to the school... It should go where a blood work up goes ... For my area two vet clinics are hospitals and thus do in house ... My main vet send s it out to the place that does Human testing and results are usually within 24-72 hours( cultures the later)...

i understand the difference between a culture and a urinalysis but the problem is that my vet may not be able to do a urine culture.

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blueandfrodo, the sample for a culture has to be sent out, even in my area. There is no reason why your vet should not be able to do that.

The problem with cosequin is that it does not address the underlying cause and so it's not a solution.

http://www.manhattancats.com/Articles/FLUTD.html

Veterinarians and clients should realize, however, that this supplement, if it works, only serves to make the cat more comfortable, and does not address the actual cause of the bladder irritation, which in most cases, continues to remain a mystery.

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I'd just like to ask you, are there any fruit and vegetable ingredients in the diet you're feeding right now? Or have been for some time?

Originally Posted by Violet

blueandfrodo, the sample for a culture has to be sent out, even in my area. There is no reason why your vet should not be able to do that.

The problem with cosequin is that it does not address the underlying cause and so it's not a solution.

http://www.manhattancats.com/Articles/FLUTD.html



I'd just like to ask you, are there any fruit and vegetable ingredients in the diet you're feeding right now? Or have been for some time?

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i read the page you linked and my question is, if blue's flutd is idiopathic what is the problem with treating the symptoms and making her more comfortable if we can't figure out the reason for it? i can't fix it if i don't know what is causing it. it is possibly stress. in this new house i noticed that she is less stressed and more mellow than she was at the other place. the last thing on the list now to make her as happy as i can is an outdoor enclosure. that is next spring's project.

yes, there are fruit/vegetable ingredients in her food.

here are the ingredients:

INGREDIENTS
Chicken, turkey, chicken broth, chicken liver, turkey liver, turkey broth, duck, salmon, dried egg, carrots, peas, sweet potatoes, guar gum, apples, blueberries, cranberries, cottage cheese, alfalfa sprouts, pumpkin puree, sea salt, spinach, broccoli powder, dried bananas, flaxseed meal, minerals (iron amino acid chelate, zinc amino acid chelate, cobalt amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate, manganese amino acid chelate, sodium selenite, potassium iodide), inulin,, vitamins (vitamin E supplement, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin), choline chloride, salmon oil, sunflower oil, rosemary, carrageenan, taurine, yucca schidigera extract, beta-carotene.

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i do not have any other option for food for them unless i go to the grocery store and get dry whiskas... i order this food in from a store 2 hours from my house. they only carry canidae, go/now, and orijen. my cats hated the felidae food and orijen doesn't make canned food. i could get canned online but the shipping is more than twice the price of the food and i can't pay that much for food for the cats, i am already paying about $120/month to feed 2 cats. that is more than i pay to feed 2 large dogs.

Originally Posted by sharky

Please SHARE the research and or studies you have SHOWING a fish diet to be fine for a FLUTD cat.... I have researched this for YEARS and talked to Many many vets and not one item/ vet has recommended fish based for this condition... Poor quality fish meal is not the issue it is Fish and processing... A raw diet may help you but you can also cause kitty alot of harm with it , due to not knowing what is causing the infection and the fact you have to adjust certain things to make a Raw diet and a Uti / FLUTD cat work....

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In addition to the issues of form (canned or dry), and acceptability to the cat (smell, taste, mouth feel) discussed above, modification of the nutrient content of diets has been suggested to play a role in the treatment of cats with FIC. Older literature related to “Feline Urological Syndrome” suggested reduction of “ash”. Later studies suggested reduction of magnesium and modification of the nutrient composition of foods to create a more acidic urine. No evidence supports the use of these modifications for cats with FIC.1 Increasing the renal solute load of the diet using either salt(s) or protein also has been suggested, but not yet adequately tested in clinical trials in cats with FIC. The weak evidence for modification of intake of any particular nutrient modifications, and the stronger evidence for environmental enrichment (of which food certainly is a part, as described above), suggest that such modifications may not be first line treatment for cats with FIC.

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i got this here http://vet.osu.edu/vmc/food-and-feed...nagement-22010

this information is from feb. 2010.

blueandfrodo, I'm absolutely convinced you can fix the problem.

The fruits and vegetables in the diet can be a big part of the problem for two reasons. (Also the fish.) These ingredients can cause reactions that in turn cause inflammation and pain. Plus, fruits and vegetables can raise the pH and cause problems, including bacterial infections, that way as well.

Idiopathic means that the cause is not known, but it also means it is not known because nobody is making an effort to look for it. Bladder issues have an awful lot to do with food and individual sensitivities and you won't believe what you can discover when you start doing food trials and elimination diets. Individual sensitivity is the big issue here, capable of causing serious problems for one cat while another cat will have no problems from the same things whatsoever.

Dr. Jean Hofve (she was a guest expert here back in 2008) has written an awful lot over the years about the urinary problems cats can get from vegetables. She would point out that not all cats are prone to bladder problems, some can handle veggies just fine, but they are not good for the general cat population. This is hundred percent correct.

My heartfelt advice to you would be this: make an effort to find different food - canned food, under no circumstances anything dry. Dry would be the worst choice in this situation. Look for food with no vegetables and fruits. If Life's Abundance Instinctive Choice
http://ultrafreshpetfood.com/holisti...d-cat-food.htm
is still available, perhaps consider giving that a try for a while. And look for other foods similar to that.
These days everything is available by mail, the amount one has to order might be the only problem while one is experimenting with different foods.

I remember some time ago sharky had a list of good quality grain-free (canned) foods, hopefully she still has it and can share it with you.

My advice to you would also be to stay away from fish in foods, but consider giving high-quality fish oil as a soothing supplement a try.

In addition to experimenting with food, please consider having a urinalysis done after fasting kitty overnight. Fasting results are the most reliable. And pay particular attention to the pH reading your vet will get from this test. This reading will be a good and very important guide for you. If bacteria is found, have your vet send out a sample for the very necessary culture and sensitivity test.

I'd also like to ask you (can't recall whether this was mentioned in previous posts) has your vet ever done an ultrasound?

i have just provided recent information that stated that there is no link between crystals and magnesium (fish) in food. it also stated that there is not enough evidence to prove any link between dry food and flutd issues.

also, i have stated that i cannot get different food. i live in a VERY small town far from everything in newfoundland. i can't pay $40 for a case of food and then $60 for shipping. that is just not possible. i would be surprised if anyone on here would be willing to spend $100 for 12 days worth of food for 2 cats.

my cat has never had an ultrasound done and i actually doubt that there is an ultrasound machine for pet use anywhere even close to me.

i really don't think that you guys understand the situation that i am in. i live in a remote area (we don't even have all the medical services for humans, let alone things that i need for pets) that used to pay teachers a northern allowance. we do not have the option to just order something in at a store. i have to drive 400 km round trip to get the food that i am getting. postage for things is more expensive and takes at least 3 weeks. pressuring me to get different food doesn't do much except make me feel bad for not being able to provide my cats with what they need according to you (general you, not specific you). i personally feel that the very best diet for my cats is raw and that is easily accessible for me and there are no carbs at all - no grains, no fruits, and no vegetables. when i get home again i will start the switch.

i appreciate the help and i have gotten some good ideas but i can't do all the things that are mentioned here. not to mention that there is a bunch of conflicting advice given in this thread. i just wanted to know if i should give the cosequin a try or not. the research provided in this thread about that is that there is no solid evidence that it works but some people said that it has helped their cats. so, it all comes down to if i want to give it a shot i might as well since it won't cause any harm either way.

You're always going to get a ton of info when posting on this subject, so many of us have dealt with it, and so many of us, and the vets we use, have different approaches.

Yes, do put her on the cosequin. (I think I said that in my first post. )

But if it doesn't help make her more comfortable, and prescription food is available to you, I hope you will reconsider trying it for Blue. It's made the way it is for a reason, and has helped many cats. It's not just for crystals, it's for any bladder health issue, specific or idiopathic, too.

Keep us posted on Blue.

Originally Posted by blueandfrodo

i got this here http://vet.osu.edu/vmc/food-and-feed...nagement-22010

this information is from feb. 2010.

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That is NOT a study... it is a few articles from over 50 plus years cut and pasted .... Sorry that is not worth risking your cats life on.... I would suggest you look at Actual studies not someones rewrite to their opinion... There are numerous ones , and the ash part of that article was pulled from the 1950's ... Another part came from 1999 and that study was redone several times with far different results

If you want I will happily dig up the grain free list ... It has grown...

Online shopping is what you are likely going to need to do...

can you afford to spend $300/month to feed 2 cats? that is 1/2 my rent.

Originally Posted by blueandfrodo

can you afford to spend $300/month to feed 2 cats? that is 1/2 my rent.

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I found a grain free canned that if I feed it only would run me under 65$ a month to feed 5 cats...

without shipping...

just checked a site... $182 just for shipping for 4 cases of food!

Originally Posted by blueandfrodo

without shipping...

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Yes because it is commonly found at feed and grocery stores... So it would likely be about 150 if you had to ship to feed 5 cat ... or likely 75$ for two

if you have a feed store then that is great. i live in newfoundland. i DO NOT have a feed store. we don't have live stock and therefore no need for a feed store. i also live in a remote area so shipping is a lot of money. just check it out for yourself, my postal code is a0k 1b0.