Harveys worse than ever-videos included

I'm so sorry this is happening to you Ruthy!!! God, I hate the fact that it's causing problems with your hubby!!! I wish I could come and get Harvey so you would have some peace. You know I don't advocate meds unless it's as a last resort, but....if you have tried everything else...
Wouldn't your hubby just give him one more chance? I'm sure that if it's a matter of cash to get him to another vet that WE could all help you with that. I know there's no better cause than to try one more time to give Harvey and your family some peace of mind.
I don't believe he's acting like this because he's a mean cat. He's trying to tell you something. What in the world did his previous owner do to him?? I don't even want to know--she should be PTS

Hun i am so sorry things arent etting better with Harvey I just dont know what to suggest to try and help him. I agree with Cheryl i think he could be lashin out because there is something wrong with him

on toys what works for smooch because he is an agressive cat at times are beanie ones but not.....do you have a tesco close to you? we get smooch's toys from there and they have beanie bums and are tough! they arent in the pet section his latest one is a zebra....the tiger in him certainly comes out with that one string toys distract to

our closest one isnt that big neither hun we buy his toys in the kids toys bit actually Asda has similar toys in as well

i dunno if you can et the turbo scratchers here but if your an ebay addict you might find one

If you cant find anything hun let me know i can pick a couple up and send you them if you like, theres something like 4 tescos close to me that stock these toys haha

If you're thinking toys, how about besides some regular mice or whatever, maybe try a wand toy (with a long wand or long string, so he doesn't get you!). The stimulation might just help him out a lot. Balls are good too, especially if you have hard floors. Simple cheap ping pong balls are now one of Genever's fave things to chase around! Heck, even a crumpled up ball of paper is a great toy! (well til it gets chewed up anyway!!)

Other than that, I have no real advice besides another vet checkup to really make sure nothing has popped up since you had him neutered. I am sending calming vibes over your way... lots and lot of them.

I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles with Harvey. I'm sorry that I can't recall his history, but I do know you inherited him from the woman whose home you moved to, but don't recall how long you've had him.

Mental illness in a cat is very difficult, if not impossible to diagnose. Harvey may have been a victim of abuse previously, or he may have some wiring issues in his brain. After 7 years of struggle with my baby Oscar, I finally released him from his mental illness on Monday. I apologize if a ramble a bit in this response - this is still emotionally raw in my brain.

Recognizing the difference between an aggressive cat versus one with a physically based mental illness is not easy. If Harvey's behavior is based on past abuse, then you do have a real chance to work with him. Have you read the sticky thread about cat aggression towards people? If not, start there.

I never found a vet who had any ideas on how to diagnose mental illness. The closest I got was the admission from one of my vets that had a bi-polar sister, and the behavior I described to her about Oscar was very similar to that of her sister. I also have a bi-polar brother and I recognized my brothers symptoms in Oscar. As the vet said, what happens in humans can happen in cats and a great deal of their behavior is genetically based. You won't get much help from a vet other than prescribing medication to help even out Harvey's moods. The question on whether to euthanize due to possible mental illness is entirely based on quality of life.

The things that I noted about Oscar that confirmed my suspicions that something was fundamentally wrong with him were as follows. Perhaps you'll see something in this list that you can apply to Harvey.

- The inability to relate to other cats on a consistent basis. There were times that he snuggled up to them, did mutual grooming and was very calm with them. Other times the other cats would try to dominate him. Other times he would simply hide under the bed to avoid all contact with them. The level of his avoidance increased tremendously over time.

- The inability to do things that cats normally do. Oscar was terrified of toys. Whenever I pulled one out to play with him, he would immediately hide under a bed. He might lay still and watch other cats play with toys, but he never once attempted to be part of that play. By watching other cats play, he should have gained an understanding of what toys were for, but he never got it. He did the same thing with treats. I'd toss him a treat and he'd hide from it.

- A complete inconsistency with his interactions with humans. He was good with me for years and usually hid from strangers. Then he would surprise everyone by walking into the room with a complete stranger and rub against them for loving. Over time, he hid from me more and more.

- Unexplained changes in mood from moment to moment with no apparent trigger. Now many cats have extreme mood swings and this one was more difficult to judge. Oscar used to like to jump into my lap and head mash my face. During these times he would purr and give me that look of total adoration. I would have my arm wrapped around him to scratch his face. As he got older, I noticed that his body would go from completely relaxed to frozen in fear in a heart beat. His pupils would also dilate. Then he would leap down, run under the closest bed and sometimes stay there for a week. I really paid close attention to these times, and in particular looked for external stimulation that may have triggered his fear response. There was nothing happening at those moments.

- All of these symptoms got slowly worse over the 7-1/2 years that he lived with me. His "good" times when he was sociable with other cats and me dropped to about 5-10 minutes a week. He was good most of the time when he was younger.

- What finally pushed the situation over the edge for me was when Oscar's behavior went from passive/fearful to aggressive. Because of his fears of other cats, I had him in his own room away from the other cats and he was on anti-anxiety medication. I would spend time with him each day using many of the tricks that you use with feral cats. Sitting on the floor and reading to him, never approaching him directly, no direct eye contact, etc. He actually seemed to be relaxing in this environment. Then one day he started to show signs of aggression to me. It escalated to the point that he went on full attack mode with me - the best I could describe is violent. For a cat with suspected bi-polar illness to switch from a passive/fearful cat to a completely aggressive cat was not normal. I've dealt with feral cats and I've never seen even a feral cat with this behavior.

I brought Oscar to the vet to change out his medications. Because of the fact that his behavior had gotten continuously worse over his life, we knew that his aggression would only escalate. That one quality of life remnant that he still had was gone. It is a horrible thing to try to figure out quality of life from a behavior standpoint.

Back to Harvey. Don't let anyone else influence your opinion on his behavior. You know him better than anyone else. Look for signs of true emotional instability versus a simple response to his environment. Keep a very close eye on things that could be triggering his aggressive behavior. Remember that a lot of things can set off a cat - a change in your routine, a change in your emotions, a new cat in the neighborhood, an illness in your household (are all of your cats healthy right now?). It took me a very long time to come to the realization that Oscar was never going to improve - and I'm not going to second guess myself that I waited too long to reach that conclusion. When I finally checked my emotions and looked at his behavior rationally, I could see what was happening plain as day.

to get your through this. Please PM me if you want to discuss this privately.

Ruthyb, I will preface this with the usual caveat about my not being a veterinarian, but I seem to remember your posting that when Harvey was neutered, the vet could only find one testicle. Was that ever resolved? If not, you may want to investigate whether this problem could be aggravated, if not caused, by hormonal issues. (I have no idea whether an undescended testicle left in the body can cause mood changes, but I've always been told it can have other undesirable consequences.)

Thinking about you and Harvey.

Don't confuse disinterest with toys with fear of toys. My Lucky has no interest in toys and he is normal. Oscar ran away from them in fear. Also look very carefully at your entire environment when he flips. A cat walking across the room can trigger that and it is a legitimate trigger.

I moved into my current home 4-1/2 years ago. Oscar planted himself in our bedroom and other than wandering into our bathroom to eat and use the litter box, he didn't leave that room for 3-1/2 years that I'm aware of. And he never once left the bedroom for the bathroom while I was home and awake with him. At night he would more often than not jump off the bed and hide under it. And one day about a year ago, he left the bedroom to come into the kitchen for evening dinner. I understand the feeling of not being able to pick him up and cuddle, but I took advantage of every time he stayed put in his "comfort zone" and allowed me to love on him. He would not have allowed me to do even this had I tried to force myself on him. I loved him on his terms and his terms only. Harvey needs to be loved on his terms.

If you haven't read this thread, please do so to see if you can pick up more insights. http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20837

Ruthy, another thing to consider is that Harvey never learned how to play - or what play is - or what toys are. It's not something that cats that have lived outside or on their own pick up without help from us or by watching other kitties. Chumley was TERRIFIED of toys at first, especially the wand toys. It took a few weeks of working with him every day, but once he got it, we discovered that with him there is no better way of reducing his stress levels.

From a newsletter I got today, in fact: http://view.petplace.com/?j=fe631571...7173&jb=ffcf14

The blood work wouldn't be done yet as it was just drawn today. And were his hormone levels going to be measured or not? Sounds like the vet refused to do it? I know money's tight, but seems to me like this isn't a very good vet.

Also Ruthy, if he's not used toys before, it's something that's going to take more than a couple of days. Just keep at it! If you have some kind of soft treat or a piece of chicken, maybe tie it through a string, and wiggle it around for him like it's a hurt mouse - get his prey instinct going, but focused on the "toy" instead of the other cats. If he goes for it, praise the heck out of him.

...and in the meantime, don't try to pet him. I know it's hard.

I had a young white Exotic and they did a neuter on him and only removed one testicle (without me knowing, Mum took him to her vet, not mine) and he was the most unfriendly little cat. I took him in to my vet and they found his testicle was wrapped round some of his insides and this was causing him to play up and be a little bit aggressive. I would really look into getting that second testicle removed. Hugs for you & Harvey.

ETA: after the second op Lonestar was the sweetest, cuddliest baby!

Ruthy, I'm going to call my vet tomorrow to ask about this one testicle and the neuter situation.

In the meantime, here's a helpful link re: blood work: http://www.petplace.com/cats/underst...s-2/page1.aspx

I think your vet did not listen to you or take you seriously, and that's someone I wouldn't want to go back to. But do call the vet practice back when they're open and ask specifically if his hormone levels were tested.

In the meantime, I'm going to call my vet. Don't know if he's in tomorrow, but I'm going to ask how someone should handle a situation like this and what the options are. I don't know if this is something that can be seen on an X-ray or what. An MRI is REALLY expensive, so it probably is a lot cheaper to schedule another neuter. Unfortunately, it'll require another vet visit first, but there's no way I'd be going back to where you went.

It was requested that I come in and try to help you. It took some time, but I have read your postings. You probably won't like what I have to say, but here it goes. I have worked with aggressive strays most of my life and sometimes you can't get through. Whether it is a case of mental illness and yes, cats can from abuse, being thumped in the head, stepped on etc develop a mental issue, they can become and stay aggressive their entire lives regardless of the measures you take to make them safe.

If the neuter is recent, he still has testerone raging through his body- he can still get a female pregnant and who knows what he experienced during this short vet visit. All this plays into his behavior. I would put him outside. Either build him a special enclosure all his own with lots of protection for him, or just let him have his freedom. Provide him with all he needs outside the home- food, water, shelter but get him out of your cage and back to the world where he feels at ease. It is much better than Putting Him Down as you said you might be led to do and it will stop the dissention in your home from you and your husband. All that stress between the two of you- he will pick up on it and he will attack you when he is fully stressed. it is just what they do.

I have had several males neutered with only one testicle descending and have to say that I have never had a problem with them staying aggressive after 45 days from the surgery. But, I have had aggressive cats both male and female under my roof- and you have to weigh the good of the group against the newcomer. He will eventually become a problem sprayer for you unless you dope him so much with Prozac or amnitryptilene that all he does is drool and sleep- and what type of life is that for this fiesty boy?

If he has been abused, his trust button is on low or nonexistant and you trying to pet him whenever possible just needs to stop. NOW- he can put a world of hurt on you and if you have money issues- can you handle a larger ER bill for you or your family?

Open the door, say a prayer of safety over him and let him go outside.His tail swishing, his attacks all his body language are telling you that he has his own idea of happiness and it isn't with you or anyone else. He is his own cat and if you provide what he needs outside the home, I am sure that in time he will show you how much he appreciates that you listened to him when no one else would.

Ruthy, hissy has more experience than most of us put together when it comes to rescue.

I'm still going to call the vet for feedback if you want to pursue that avenue before making a decision on what to do.