CRF and High Protein Foods

mrsgreenjeens

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Ok, I just have to ask this. I'm sure I have read a few times that if you have a good quality wet food, even though it's high protein, it's ok to feed it to a CRF cat. (am I imaging this, or have I really read it?) Anyway, if this is true of wet, why wouldn't it be true of a good quality high protein dry food, like Wellness Core?

The reason I ask is that my Sven is completely rejecting everything we have in the house right now except the high protein, low carb food we are feeding our little piggy, Darko. Since that's the case, I was thinking about trying to get sime high protein, high CALORIE stuff (and happen to already have some Wellness Core, which I quit feeding everyone when he was diagnosed) like Evo or Eagle Pack Holistic.

Thoughts?
 

sharky

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It has to due with processing and digestion...

Higher protein wet comes with a above natural prey amount of moisture... thus it is very easy to digest protein which is key with CRF as to not stress the kidneys...Most canned crude % protein is 9-10%

Dry food is roughly 10% moisture thus causes some dehydration to digest ... A high protein dry would actually take more resources from the cat than even a normal protein dry

crude protein in dry food 28-55% or roughly 3 to 5 times that of wet food

If you have any ??s I am available via pm ...


Disclaimer Ask the vet ....The vet is Highly qualified in managing disease
 
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mrsgreenjeens

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Originally Posted by sharky

Disclaimer Ask the vet ....The vet is Highly qualified in managing disease
Yes, Vet is good at managing the disease, but they aren't highly trained in nutrition! ie, they push Science Diet typically
(for everyday food).]

BTW, thanks for your quick response. As always, you're a fountain of information!!!
 

pookie-poo

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Do you have a recent bloodwork to use for comparison? If so, try feeding the dry for a month to 6 weeks, and then do a repeat bloodwork to see if there is a significant rise in BUN, creatinine and Phosphorus. When I feed a higher protein/phosphorus food, I add Aluminum Hydroxide gel powder phosphorus binder. From everything I've read on the subject, Phosphorus content is more problematic in causing a faster progression of CRF, than protein content.
 

sharky

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diesease nutrition is a fundamental of most vet school programs...lol.. it is preventative some are needing some help with in regards of nutrition...

Have you done the research into what make SD work? it truely is a facinating class

Your welcome

what foods are available to you?
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by Pookie-poo

Do you have a recent bloodwork to use for comparison? If so, try feeding the dry for a month to 6 weeks, and then do a repeat bloodwork to see if there is a significant rise in BUN, creatinine and Phosphorus. When I feed a higher protein/phosphorus food, I add Aluminum Hydroxide gel powder phosphorus binder. From everything I've read on the subject, Phosphorus content is more problematic in causing a faster progression of CRF, than protein content.
Depends on the CRF case... Kandie actually had low phos the whole way threw her battle with crf ... she was an oddity with Low BP too.... IMHO I will never add aluminum to anyone s food even though I completely understand how it works and why some choose to use it
 

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Originally Posted by sharky

diesease nutrition is a fundamental of most vet school programs...lol.. it is preventative some are needing some help with in regards of nutrition...

Have you done the research into what make SD work? it truely is a facinating class

Your welcome

what foods are available to you?
Hi Sharky
I'd be really interested in any links to the research about SD....especially since I've got 2 CRFers. Mine eat mostly Royal Canin LP canned, but will also eat the k/d canned for a change-up. Can't get too much education, ya know?
 
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mrsgreenjeens

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Originally Posted by sharky

Depends on the CRF case... Kandie actually had low phos the whole way threw her battle with crf ... she was an oddity with Low BP too.... IMHO I will never add aluminum to anyone s food even though I completely understand how it works and why some choose to use it
Sven's phos are normal too! And at last check, his BUN was not terribly high...56. That was in March. He's due for another check in just a few weeks.
 
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mrsgreenjeens

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Originally Posted by sharky

diesease nutrition is a fundamental of most vet school programs...lol.. it is preventative some are needing some help with in regards of nutrition...

Have you done the research into what make SD work? it truely is a facinating class

Your welcome

what foods are available to you?
Are you speaking of SD prescription and how it works? Guess not, because that would be Hills, wouldn't it? Are you saying that SD is an OK food? I thought it was not very good! Anyway, the answer is "no, I haven't", but for 30 years it's all we fed our dogs and cats, because we thought it was a really good food. Just stopped feeding it since we adopted "the boys" about a year ago.

Basically ALL foods are availabe to us because we live in a VERY large metropolitan area. We have Pet Club, Petsmart, Petco, and, ofcouse, the internet!! But Sven has never liked any wet food we have ever tried, and believe me, we have tried plenty of them, all kinds of brands and varieties. He doesn't even like canned tuna, silly cat!!
 

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NO I mean Hills... as I learned it as Hills Science diet back in the early days
... sorry...

Have you tried the all beef or buffalo type cans? These are two that arent likely to have bone in them... I have two who think tuna is for the birds
 
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mrsgreenjeens

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Gosh, we've tried beef, liver, chicken, turkey, all kinds of fish varieties, as I said, various brand, even though fairly new appetizer things that come in a shallow dish. All were a no go. But I've been reading here about NB duck (I think) with peas that CRF kitties seem to like, so make give that one a try. I'm just thinking that it must be a texture thing, even though we've gone the pate, shredded, chunks, gravy, etc. route. I think he just likes that good old crunch!! We even bought him Boarshed low sodium roasted chicken from the deli and he only ate a few bites and that was that. Luckily, we made ourselves sandwiches with the rest, so it wasn't a complete loss
 

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Originally Posted by mrsgreenjeens

Yes, Vet is good at managing the disease, but they aren't highly trained in nutrition! ie, they push Science Diet typically
(for everyday food).]

BTW, thanks for your quick response. As always, you're a fountain of information!!!
There is a place for Rx foods but if your CRF cat won't eat them, like mine, then what do you do? I am feeding mine Natural Balance limited ingredients diets which seem to have the proper levels of potassium, protein, phosphorus and sodium. He goes off on them occasionally so I will try a can of k/d or some other food. A cat has to eat....an important thing is to give your cat a high quality protein. It is also important to limit the phosphorus and sodium. Egg whites are a good source of protein without adding phosphorus. Vets may take some courses in nutrition but some of these courses are sponsored by Hills or some other food company.
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by SweetPea24

There is a place for Rx foods but if your CRF cat won't eat them, like mine, then what do you do? I am feeding mine Natural Balance limited ingredients diets which seem to have the proper levels of potassium, protein, phosphorus and sodium. He goes off on them occasionally so I will try a can of k/d or some other food. A cat has to eat....an important thing is to give your cat a high quality protein. It is also important to limit the phosphorus and sodium. Egg whites are a good source of protein without adding phosphorus. Vets may take some courses in nutrition but some of these courses are sponsored by Hills or some other food company.
very good info.. till the vets... for vets who have come thru school in the last decade the nutrition education is not all from the PFC making Rxs ... Many schools have totally moved away from them... And Truly the education of a VET is to TREAT disease so yes they do Actually know more than the lay person with a internet connection... and for the classes sponsored by the RX companies the reps would be able to explain how the product works and why to the vets... then the vet explains it to the patients caretaker

Just a ?? your cat eats egg whites>? I ask as I have never met one that would
 

sweetpea24

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Originally Posted by sharky

very good info.. till the vets... for vets who have come thru school in the last decade the nutrition education is not all from the PFC making Rxs ... Many schools have totally moved away from them... And Truly the education of a VET is to TREAT disease so yes they do Actually know more than the lay person with a internet connection... and for the classes sponsored by the RX companies the reps would be able to explain how the product works and why to the vets... then the vet explains it to the patients caretaker

Just a ?? your cat eats egg whites>? I ask as I have never met one that would
Yes I know that there are 'valid' nutrition courses out there but those that are sponsored by Hills for example, are not objective and thus, the students of these courses will only know what Hills wants them to know. Yes, they will be able to explain to a client why a particular Rx food works and I don't argue the value of this. However, a Vet should also be able to explain why a particular food, any food, is not good or is good for my pet. Just because it came from a pet store and not from Hills is not a good enough answer. If my vet actually researches the food I'm feeding and can reliably explain to me why it's good or not good for my pet, then I will be able to accept my vet's education in nutrition. If they can explain to me how the corn gluten in a maintenance food like Preventive is more beneficial than the turkey, duck, chicken or beef in my younger cat's food, I'd love to hear this one. I do have a thing against Hills mainly, but other Rx foods, especially Iams, and Purina, are garbage. The renal one that Iams makes looks like diarrhea! Anyway, I'm sure that veterinary nutrition education has come a long way, I guess the vets in my area just haven't been exposed to it yet.

Yes my cat will eat egg whites. I sometimes add egg whites to his food and mix it in to 'dilute' the phosphorus. I give my dog and other cat scrambled eggs when I cook them for myself. Strange animals yes!
 

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Have you thought of feeding raw? My girl was in her upper teens and had hyperthyroidism when she was diagonosed with CRF. At 16 she was just losing weigh and eating like crazy, I brought her to the vet for more blood work, even though her 6 month test was not due. The vet said she had CRF and gave me a bunch of websites to read. We tried all the special diets, she hated them all. We finally broke down and started feeding her raw food, chicken, rabbit, turkey, what ever she would eat. As a treat, she loved fresh rotisserie turkey from the deli, so she would get that once a day. All of her food had extra distilled water added for liquids.

After switching to the raw and the fresh baked turkey, she had gained 6 pounds, her fur was nice and glossy, bright clear eyes. Her blood work came back almost normal, I was So tickled! When she turned 18, we did have to add Sub-Q fluids once a week. Unfortunately, she developed a heart murmur, which the vet said is common in hyperthyroid cats. At almost 19, the day after her 6 month checkup, which the vet said she looked wonderful, she had lost some weight, but she was her cheerful (ie tried to bite the vet) self. He did more bloodwork, gave some fluids and sent us home with a happy bill of health. That evening she had a stroke, and loss the use of her back legs and one front leg. I could not stand to see the look in her eyes: "Mom, what's wrong, I can't move, Please help!" I called the vet back the next morning to put her down. He was stunned and upset. Sorry to be so long, I still miss my Pooh, she was a special kitty.

So, after all that, I would suggest trying raw food if you can get it or handle it. Some people don't like raw food. Just make sure that you get the ground with organs and not with ground bones (phosphorus). Good luck with your kitty! HUGS!
 
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mrsgreenjeens

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Originally Posted by Sunstruck

Have you thought of feeding raw? My girl was in her upper teens and had hyperthyroidism when she was diagonosed with CRF. At 16 she was just losing weigh and eating like crazy, I brought her to the vet for more blood work, even though her 6 month test was not due. The vet said she had CRF and gave me a bunch of websites to read. We tried all the special diets, she hated them all. We finally broke down and started feeding her raw food, chicken, rabbit, turkey, what ever she would eat. As a treat, she loved fresh rotisserie turkey from the deli, so she would get that once a day. All of her food had extra distilled water added for liquids.

After switching to the raw and the fresh baked turkey, she had gained 6 pounds, her fur was nice and glossy, bright clear eyes. Her blood work came back almost normal, I was So tickled! When she turned 18, we did have to add Sub-Q fluids once a week. Unfortunately, she developed a heart murmur, which the vet said is common in hyperthyroid cats. At almost 19, the day after her 6 month checkup, which the vet said she looked wonderful, she had lost some weight, but she was her cheerful (ie tried to bite the vet) self. He did more bloodwork, gave some fluids and sent us home with a happy bill of health. That evening she had a stroke, and loss the use of her back legs and one front leg. I could not stand to see the look in her eyes: "Mom, what's wrong, I can't move, Please help!" I called the vet back the next morning to put her down. He was stunned and upset. Sorry to be so long, I still miss my Pooh, she was a special kitty.

So, after all that, I would suggest trying raw food if you can get it or handle it. Some people don't like raw food. Just make sure that you get the ground with organs and not with ground bones (phosphorus). Good luck with your kitty! HUGS!
I'm so sorry you lost your old girl, but sounds like you had her much longer than you might have if you'd not gotten her to gain that weight. That's fantastic. Sven's problem is that he doesn't seem to like any food anymore. I can tell sometimes, though, that he's hungry, because he'll sniff the food, then ignore it. I know nothing about raw, but I've tried cooking chicken (unseasoned) and salmon and he's never interested. Guess I need to do a little investigating! Anything is worth a try at this point.
 

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If you are going to opt for raw, I would strongly suggest doing a lot of research. There are many premade raw foods which will make it more convenient for you and then you don't have to worry about her not getting the nutrients she needs. If you decide to do it the homemade way, you have to make sure you get nutritional balance over time, meaning that you get the optimal balance of meat, organs, etc in her diet. Raw is a great diet but I would think that your cat would have to take a phosphorus binder to reduce the phosphorus being filtered through the kidneys.

Also, the premade raw diets are expensive BUT since cats don't eat much, then it's not really a big deal. I feed my 20 lb dog a premade raw and spend about $55 every 1.5 months.
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by SweetPea24

If you are going to opt for raw, I would strongly suggest doing a lot of research. There are many premade raw foods which will make it more convenient for you and then you don't have to worry about her not getting the nutrients she needs. If you decide to do it the homemade way, you have to make sure you get nutritional balance over time, meaning that you get the optimal balance of meat, organs, etc in her diet. Raw is a great diet but I would think that your cat would have to take a phosphorus binder to reduce the phosphorus being filtered through the kidneys.

Also, the premade raw diets are expensive BUT since cats don't eat much, then it's not really a big deal. I feed my 20 lb dog a premade raw and spend about $55 every 1.5 months.
WOW You must have an outlet of cheap food... Premade raw for my 15lb dog ran 30-45$ a month...Now it is running about 45-60 a month
 

sweetpea24

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Originally Posted by sharky

WOW You must have an outlet of cheap food... Premade raw for my 15lb dog ran 30-45$ a month...Now it is running about 45-60 a month
Really? I am trying to get my dog to lose 3 lbs to 17 lbs so I don't feed her what they say on the package, much to her chagrin! So I probably would be spending as much as you or more if I did feed according to the guidelines? I feed Nature's Variety but feed the chubs, the big sausage like things. So inconvenient because I have to cut the chub in half and freeze one half. But it's much cheaper than the medallions or patties.
 
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