The fine line between pet ownership, rescue, and hoarding...

Originally Posted by catsallaround

so my overview on this is(no real order)
1-all are fixed by breeding age(or kept from breeding if medical unable to)
2-fed fresh food, fresh water.
3-space-not the each cat needs 2 rooms but within limits. can they run/play tag/get away from eachother as they wish?
4-clean litter, clean floors, nothing should be living in its own waste. accidents happen-leaving it there till maggots come or something to that affect is NO GOOD

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I agree with this list completely.

As someone who has just spent a week's pay on my most recent two rescues, I could take this thread a little personally, but only because I am HIGHLY conscious of my current situation.

(Well, ok, except for the clean floors, because although I have and use a Dyson, there is ALWAYS fur on my floors! )

I spent some time today talking to the vet and to another animal lover in the area about getting connected with a local fostering network in case more kitties show up on my doorstep in the future.

I think as long as you are AWARE, and are actually doing what is best for the CATS, rather than what you "think" is best for them (for example, rescuing without spaying/neutering, IMO, is NOT rescuing!) then you're ok and not a hoarder, which is really a form of emotional illness.

I've been watching the "Confessions of an Animal Hoarder" on Animal Planet lately, and what I see there horrifies me! I may have one or two too many, sure, but they are all healthy, vetted, spayed, well fed, have more toys than my skin child ever did and their litter boxes are scooped at minimum every other day, usually on a daily basis.

So I think I'm good!

There is a fine line, but the majority of people don't get these lines blurred. This is a complex issue in which can be so subjective to some, objective to others. Hoarding is a mental illness IMO and the animals suffer, which is not OK. Out of all the people I know, and many are animal lovers, not many have what I consider a lot of companion animals.

Hoarding IS a mental illness, and it's not just animals. One of my mom's relatives kept just about everything she ever got, and stacked it in the hallways. She didn't have ANY pets, it was all newspapers and other junk all over. There was barely a narrow walkway through the house. Some rooms you were completely unable to enter. That's hoarding.

Now, I have 20 indoor cats currently. I don't feel like I'm over my head. With cats, anyway; I think 3 dogs is maybe a bit too much for me, but I cope. They're getting older and are mostly settled down. But I do think that in the future I'll only have one dog. It doesn't seem like there are actually that many cats in the house. Cleaning 20 litterboxes isn't much more trouble than cleaning 6 litterboxes, IMO. I suppose it helps that 5 of them are totally feral, and don't want any attention. If they were all as demanding as my most demanding cat, I'd have trouble! There is pet hair all over the house, but most of that is from two of the dogs---a Husky mix and a German Shepherd mix....if you've never had a Husky or a GSD I don't think you could understand, LOL. I could vacuum several times daily (sometimes I do) and there would still be dog hair everywhere.

I also like catsallaround's list:

1-all are fixed by breeding age(or kept from breeding if medical unable to)
2-fed fresh food, fresh water.
3-space-not the each cat needs 2 rooms but within limits. can they run/play tag/get away from eachother as they wish?
4-clean litter, clean floors, nothing should be living in its own waste. accidents happen-leaving it there till maggots come or something to that affect is NO GOOD

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I see some threads here where someone has maybe 2 or 3 cats...but "can't afford" to have them spayed/neutered. Or maybe they even only have one unaltered cat, or they say they scoop the litterbox once every couple weeks. I can't understand that at all. I think they're probably in over their heads. For some people, one pet is too many. Other people can handle far more.

I agree totally that hoarding is a mental illness and often the people involved collect more than cats. That is the key word =collect. If you desire to 'collect' rather than 'rescue' or'share your home' then you are going down hte slippery slope to hoarding.

My cats are my family. As such I know all their individual quirks and needs I probably have one or two too many, as I have very little time for anything else but the animals, but that is a choice I made. If I got to a stage where I could not give htem individual attention, or where I found I was missing the little signs that one was feeling out of sorts or not eating properly, then I would know I had too many for their own good and welfare, but I am not in that situation. And of course money is tight, but they get the best food I can afford, which includes urinary quality dry food and bottled water as a couple of them have had UTIs in this very hard water area.

I do foster, but my relations with the fosters are completely different. I know they are passing through, whether they go back to the shelter for adoption or whether I find them homes. I look after them, play with them, socialise them, watch for any personality or health traits that potential adopters need to know, but I know they are not 'mine'. I do get attached to some more than others, of course, but that just makes me more determined to find them good homes. This summer, because of my knee operation, I have not taken in any fosters, as I have had to arrange for other people to take care of the feeding and cleaning, though not the emotional care, of my own cats.

SO all I am saying is that once one gets beyond the basic ability to feed and clean, hoarding is a mental condition. And I think all responsible TCS members recognise the difference.

Originally Posted by jennyranson

SO all I am saying is that once one gets beyond the basic ability to feed and clean, hoarding is a mental condition. And I think all responsible TCS members recognise the difference.

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I don't know that some do know the difference. People keep saying it's a fine line. How the heck is having a mental illness or not a fine line? You either have it, are genetically predisposed for it, or you don't. There's no half way about it.

I know for myself Im at my limit total with pets. We have the 3 cats and myself and BF both go out of our way daily to make sure they all get attention individually and as a group. I scoop the poop daily rinse and clean their water dishes twice a day and also check their food supply. I have cut a small corner in their food instead of getting TOTW they are getting 4Health from CT because it still helped with Hercules and GiGis poo issues but for 4 dollars less I get 3 more lbs.

We have our mini doxie who doesnt take up much space and gets tons of individual attention and play time and I know all of his quirks. Then we have Max our Golden Retriever who was a recent addition. I adopted him from my mom because she couldnt care for him and his quality of life was horrible. It was rough for a while and there were plenty of times where both myself and BF wondered if we made a mistake by taking him in. Slowly as the cats started warming up to him (it took a LONGGGG time) we realized that we are doing a good thing and have both come to love Max and he has really become a fun interesting part of our family. However we are at our max with pets there just is no way we can have anymore and keep their quality of life the same which does make it a little harder for us because we see these cats that have been dropped off at the house and we want to do everything we can for them but realize that we just cant adopt them. We do feed them and have gotten permission to set up a shelter type area in the barn for them. I will also work on getting the one female spayed for sure and if I can trap the males they will get fixed also.

I do make use of the low cost spay and neuter clinics in the area and also the low cost shot clinics for both the dogs and cats. I will admit that my dogs are not neutered, mainly because after a lot of research I feel that its best health wise for them to wait till they are two years old which is coming up shortly so they will both be getting fixed this coming spring.

While our house is small and with having a big dog in here it can feel a little tight however aside from the space issues everything works right now and even just adding some goldfish would be too much and Im glad that even though Im a softee when it comes to strays I can recognize the fact that Im at my limit and not willing to risk the health of my current pets.

I do agree that hoarding is a mental illness but I wish there were more resources or ability of shelters and animal services to do more to catch these people who do this. The low cost spay and neuter clinic I go to actually started to help the elderly who fed the strays and ferals that were reproducing and they give those services to those people for free or at extremely low cost. Im happy to drive that hour down there to support them because the first time I went I witnessed first hand what they did. One lady had 18 cats and kittens there that she was feeding plus more pregnant females and the man who runs the clinic went out himself and trapped all the males and females that werent too far along and brought them in and got them all fixed for the lady. When the time comes to get the dogs fixed I will probably contact that man again to get all the information about their dog s/n program and probably take the boys down there.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

I don't know that some do know the difference. People keep saying it's a fine line. How the heck is having a mental illness or not a fine line? You either have it, are genetically predisposed for it, or you don't. There's no half way about it.

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I think there is a very grey area between being 'normal', 'eccentric' and obsessed or otherwise mentally ill. There is even a great difference and a wide spectrum between what we call normal people. We would probably not call someone mentally ill if they collected coins or porcelain to the extent that it used up all their resources, but if they do it with animals it goes over the line.

Animal hoarding is a compulsive problem where the person continually wants more animals. No number is enough. <------ I found this quote funny. Sorry, but because I always want more animals. I have two cats, and I've always wanted to have three at one time.

On a more serious note, the difference between me and the hoarders I guess, in that context, is that I know I can't financially afford that third cat right now and so I WILL NOT bring another home until I know we're set. If both of my cats were to have debilitating diseases I may not be able to afford the care, so I'm looking into pet insurance. Does this mean I'm a hoarder even though I only have two cats?

Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker

Animal hoarding is a compulsive problem where the person continually wants more animals. No number is enough. <------

I found this quote funny. Sorry, but because I always want more animals.

I have two cats, and I've always wanted to have three at one time.

On a more serious note, the difference between me and the hoarders I guess, in that context, is that I know I can't financially afford that third cat right now and so I WILL NOT bring another home until I know we're set. If both of my cats were to have debilitating diseases I may not be able to afford the care, so I'm looking into pet insurance. Does this mean I'm a hoarder even though I only have two cats?

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No, because you understand your limitations and don't go beyond them. It's the ones who continue to search out and take on more pets that I find disturbing.

Or the ones who take them in, dump them, then take more in. Wrecking these innocent soul's lives, one life at a time.

For me, four cats is a good number. When Ootay left me I had the urge many times to take in this or that cat. Someone was always asking me if I wanted another cat.

But I said no, not just when I was still recovering financially from Ootay (hundreds a month) but even after I was stablilized, because as long as that fourth space was open, I could take in the one should I be Chosen.

And lo and behold, along came Queen Eva. If I had taken in any one of those other cats offered to me over the last 18 months, I would not have been able to take Queen Eva. But she CHOSE me, she was SENT to me, we were meant to be.

If I hadn't been able to rescue her I would have fretted about her fate for the rest of my life, my heart would have had a hole that would never heal, we bonded that deeply in an instant, when she was only 4 weeks old.

Now I am at my comfort level for cats again, and no more will come in, until one leaves me for the Bridge, when I, again, will wait to be Chosen.

Originally Posted by jennyranson

. We would probably not call someone mentally ill if they collected coins or porcelain to the extent that it used up all their resources, but if they do it with animals it goes over the line.

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You would if they filled up nearly every inch of their house with it to the point that their home was nearly unlivable. And I'm not just talking about animals here, hoarders rarely hoard just animals. Typically it's things and those things have little to no value (unlike coins or porcelain).

Mental illness & hoarding aside, since I think that's actually a different type of problem, I agree with everyone how said that enough is when you can no longer provided a high quality of life/food/care to your animals. I think it's a bit of a societal problem - the cute factor has been played up so much that some people are no longer able to look at a kitten and be honest about whether they can keep it. They just see "it's cute and I want it" and then the problem begins.

We're fostering at the moment and we're also dealing with a health issue in one of our kitties. Since we took in the foster family, I've had dozens of people say "You'll end up keeping all of them" and you know what? We won't. Some of the happiest fostering moments we've had are when we've confirmed a forever home for one of them.

I think the difference between accumpulating cats that were intended as fosters and actualy fosters is the intent. Everyone goes in (presumably) with the intent to save a cat, but I don't think everyone is clear with themselves that the cat is not a permanent resident.

Hope that wasn't too rambling.

Originally Posted by otto

And lo and behold, along came Queen Eva. If I had taken in any one of those other cats offered to me over the last 18 months, I would not have been able to take Queen Eva. But she CHOSE me, she was SENT to me, we were meant to be.

If I hadn't been able to rescue her I would have fretted about her fate for the rest of my life, my heart would have had a hole that would never heal, we bonded that deeply in an instant, when she was only 4 weeks old.

Now I am at my comfort level for cats again, and no more will come in, until one leaves me for the Bridge, when I, again, will wait to be Chosen.

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It's funny you should put it like that....being Chosen.

After Banshee died, I waited several months. Then I began looking through PetFinder and other sites. Despite calling about two different kittens, for whatever reasons, they weren't meant to be. Our vet gave us an outstanding referral, our petsitter gave us an fantastic reference, etc. But it just didn't work out.

Then Mollipop came along and she chose me! She really did! That night when she sat there in my arms watching me, she just knew that I was the one. The other kittens were crawling around in my lap and meowing. Not her...she just sat there, staring into my eyes. The vet knew it, too. That girl chose me!

And I thank The Paw for Molli every night.

Originally Posted by Ms. Freya

Some of the happiest fostering moments we've had are when we've confirmed a forever home for one of them.

I think the difference between accumpulating cats that were intended as fosters and actualy fosters is the intent. Everyone goes in (presumably) with the intent to save a cat, but I don't think everyone is clear with themselves that the cat is not a permanent resident.

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I agree with this 100%! I have a foster going home today and her 2 kittens going home tomorrow and I am THRILLED! I also had a girl who adopted another of my fosters tag me in photos of him on Facebook, made my whole night! Above anything else, I want what is best for the cats, both my own AND the fosters. Dana laughs at me when I find a foster a home, because I literally get so excited that I'll jump up and down. As I've said before, I love every single one of my fosters, but I want to be able to continue to help as many kitties as I can. I would not be able to do so if I kept keeping them.

Have I adopted any of my own fosters? Absolutely! Both Teyah and Pria were fosters who I decided to adopt, simply because I knew that I could. I am happy and I know without a doubt that ALL of my kitties are happy AND healthy.

Originally Posted by otto

No, because you understand your limitations and don't go beyond them. It's the ones who continue to search out and take on more pets that I find disturbing.

Or the ones who take them in, dump them, then take more in. Wrecking these innocent soul's lives, one life at a time.

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Right now I know of a woman who keeps getting pets for her kids, then "getting rid of them" for one reason or another. Then she goes and gets more!

Originally Posted by otto

And lo and behold, along came Queen Eva. If I had taken in any one of those other cats offered to me over the last 18 months, I would not have been able to take Queen Eva. But she CHOSE me, she was SENT to me, we were meant to be.

If I hadn't been able to rescue her I would have fretted about her fate for the rest of my life, my heart would have had a hole that would never heal, we bonded that deeply in an instant, when she was only 4 weeks old.

Now I am at my comfort level for cats again, and no more will come in, until one leaves me for the Bridge, when I, again, will wait to be Chosen.

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!!!

We have 7 cats and that's more than enough. They are all indoor/outdoor cats. A little tiger kitten dropped into our backyard in the summer, but DH would not let me keep him and I was very very bitter. I cried myself blind, but I know he went to a good home through the humane society. Living in Hartford, CT would break anyone's heart. There are so many cats on the street, it's unbelievable. But I would go totally insane trying to help all the cats on the street. DH would never let me foster so that's out of the question. I would love a dog, but he would never go for that either. We just do the best we can. I also donate to the ASPCA every month.

I'm definitely not a frequent poster. I only discovered this site a few months ago, but I definitely think that every person has their own limit as to what they can handle. Right now I have 11 cats and a rabbit. When I tell people this, they usually look at me like I'm insane. I understand that to a point, but its also very frustrating because all of my animals are healthy (with the exception of occasional herpes outbreaks and medical conditions that have absolutely nothing to do with the number of cats in the house - just genetics or bad luck), they are fed prescription food, have clean fresh water, litter thats scooped twice a day, their fur looks good, my house is clean, I have lots of vertical living space for them, and they all get daily attention. Usually the same people who treat me like I'm crazy are surprised when they come over and realize that my house doesn't smell (unless they get unlucky and a cat has just come out of a litter box), and that its not really a zoo. In fact, most people come in and say "you have 11 cats? really?" because its not noticeable.

I do have to admit that keeping up on the fur is a little overwhelming sometimes because I occasionally feel like its ridiculous that I have to vacuum every day when "normal" people can get by with once a week, but the bottom line, my cats are healthy. My husband and I are healthy. Our house is clean and my cats get excellent vet care. In fact I feel like I'm at the vet at least once a week most of the time taking care of them.

I am definitely at my limit now though, and in the future, I may not always have this many. But right now we're can handle it. My husband has a good steady job, so we have steady income. And while we could definitely find other ways to spend that money, we don't mind putting it towards the animals.

For us though, we try to do things as inexpensively as possible without hindering their care in anyway. I try to buy stuff online from reputable pharmacies (I'm actually about to post a question in the health section about that), because to me it just makes sense to want to save as much money as possible. I've also gotten to a point when some things I can take care of at home, though most of the time I end up at the vet anyway. However, trying to save as much money as possible doesn't seem like a problem to me. It doesn't mean we can't afford to care for them. It means we are trying to save wherever its possible and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Some people are in way over their heads with 2 animals. One of the receptionists at my vet has 17 cats and 2 dogs and she's not in over her head. So I definitely think that its all individual. I don't think that anyone can call me a hoarder, and be correct about that, whereas I think someone with less animals than me does have the ability to be a hoarder. In my opinion once the quality of care goes down, thats when you have a problem. As long as you can keep your pets healthy, your family healthy and your house clean, I don't think I could say that there's a problem.

Originally Posted by LDG

Do you have the ferals spayed and neutered?

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Yep. We have a vet friend do them. Cheaper that way!

Originally Posted by Brooklet425

Some people are in way over their heads with 2 animals. One of the receptionists at my vet has 17 cats and 2 dogs and she's not in over her head. So I definitely think that its all individual. I don't think that anyone can call me a hoarder, and be correct about that, whereas I think someone with less animals than me does have the ability to be a hoarder. In my opinion once the quality of care goes down, thats when you have a problem. As long as you can keep your pets healthy, your family healthy and your house clean, I don't think I could say that there's a problem.

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Hate to be an anal-yst about this, but I am an analyst by trade and happen to be rather anal about things. One of those things is semantics, and a "hoarder" is not just someone who cannot properly care for their animals. That is someone in over their heads. Hoarding is a disease with a definition, it is not something subjective.

Some people can be in over their heads with one animal. Other people can properly care for 20.

There are people with good judgment and know their limits.

Having taken in Chumley rather than having him euthanized has stretched us. I like to think of us as people with good judgment that have stretched our limits. But we are able to care for ourselves, our home, and our cats. We know our income is lumpy, and we don't always have money when our cats need care. Because we know this, we've worked out arrangements with the vets we work with. When we need to, we can pay for services over time. When we're able, we carry credit balances (sometimes quite large, as every time we get paid, we give money to the vet).

There are people for whom their fortunes change, and were completely capable of caring for 2 or 5 or 10 animals, but now have to scrimp on themselves and the care of their animals.

There are people who have trouble saying no, and wind up with more animals than they can properly care for - but this does not mean they are hoarders. It means they have bad judgment and the animals suffer for it.

Hoarders are people who do not care about the animals and never have enough.

Originally Posted by trimph1

Yep. We have a vet friend do them. Cheaper that way!

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I agree that animal hoarders often feel that they are acting in an adopted parental role with respect to their animals and see themselves in a positive role as rescuers of the suffering and forgotten. They are psychologically attached to their pets to the point of denying and distorting any possibility of mistreatment. Giving them up would be like surrendering real children, no one else would or could "know" and take care of them in the same way or the animals may be euthanized if they were surrendered. People who are simply in over their heads with work and responsibility, on the other hand, usually realize it at some point.