A neverending urinary battle? - Page 2

Right now, if Teppo is very overweight that's already a risk. I'm not concerned with this for my cat on C/D because I have adjusted the calories going in and do play with him. He gained a small amount of weight (maybe .2-.3lbs) at first but never gained anymore. You simply have to be diligent and look for this or have a scale handy.

I hope you can find a better vet you can trust.

My boy had crystals. He's on Hills CD dry with a small amount of wet Hills CD (he doesn't care for wet food in general). Re weight, it's calories used has to equal or surpass calories ingested - my vet helped me with portion sizes, and I do try to get him to exercise as much as possible. He's good now - he could lose a few ounces, but no UTIs or other box issues since he's been on Hills and we figured out how much wet he can tolerate at a meal.

I'd get another opinion and interview vets til you find one you like, but for me the prescription foods are there for a reason, and if you get good results, I wouldn't overly worry about the ingredients. Sure, Hills, to a layman, may look iffy - but it's my cat's health and the lab results that I care about. I'd actually worry about a vet who didn't suggest prescription foods, at least as a trial.

And, as far as I can tell, none of the OTC foods are equivalent to the prescription foods.

I have been to quite a few vets over the years, as I have moved around a lot with my cats. Not a single one has EVER been against prescription diets. I can understand if the vet just felt that your cat didn't need a prescription diet, but from what I understand, prescription diets often help keep cats (and dogs) from having to take some medications. I try to think of it in the same light as humans: if my doctor tells me to avoid certain foods to help me keep my cholesterol down, that means I won't have to take a cholesterol-lowering pill unless I have a genetic problem, too. (Or that is the hope, in any case!) But cholesterol-containing foods also have other things that may be necessary for my diet (omega-3, protein, etc), so there is a chance that by avoiding cholesterol, I will cause other problems. I think it is basically a balancing act. You put your cat on the prescription diet if he/she will eat it, and you and your vet work on balancing how much the cat should eat and exercise to keep down the weight.
IMO, I would find another vet for a second opinion before doing anything.
As for everyone worrying about your babies developing problems as they age - to me that just shows that I am in the right place! When my husband leaves the toilet seat up, I have a picture of one of my babies drowning... if dental floss drops out of the trash onto the floor, I imagine a nightmare stomach operation ensuing... My cats are like my children (or what I imagine my children would be like if I had any!) and it is only natural for moms and dads to worry about their kids, right?!

I hope you don't feel like I am hi-jacking your thread Courtney! Hopefully there's some info that will help Simba too.

Thanks folks. So the consensus is that cat would need to be on all urinary diet? This is news for me as I particularly asked my vet would it be enough to only add c/d wet and keep the kibble part as is. He seemed to think it was perfectly enough.

On the other hand, our vet was totally not promoting the urinary diet. He was like 'you could but I dunno if it really is needed'. He actually FIRST mentioned the pill. I thought that was preferred but as I was kind of put off by the idea of meds and asked if it was necessary and would he need to take it for the rest of his life, he backed off and said it really kinda isn't in Teppo's case. He left me totally unsure. The pill as I understood was Cosequin.

All in all my impression was the vet thought that Teppo's UTI/crystals were stress related and we should see if they return and hope for the best??? Is this common approach with first incident you think? (Well, maybe with first incident if lab findings aren't drastically bad and there is no blockage etc).

Anyway, I got one referral for another vet from a person who I think knows a bit more about how to judge a vet. She is involved with rescue, not into nutrition too much, but at least I would think she can judge vets a bit more than layperson. Wish me luck. Teppo's brother is up for annual, so I think I take him for a test visit first and if that goes well, Teppo for a second opinion.

Cosequin for cats is very beneficial for FLUTD kitties. My Mazy takes it every day. It's not a prescription drug, it's a supplement, made by NutraMax. (not the same as Nutro fooods) It comes in capsule form and you simply sprinkle the contents of the capsule over the cat's food once a day. Most cats like the taste.

Cosequin for cats is an arthritis supplement but has been found in some studies to benefit FLUTD cats by keeping the bladder walls smooth and supple, so things (such as crystals) do not stick and linger, rather they get flushed as fast as they form. (my unscientific understanding)

Cosequin is made up of the same stuff that is in the human arthritis supplement, glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM. I highly recommend it for kitties prone to crystal formation, along with prescription diet or not.

Every vet approaches things differently. You could try talking with the vet and see if s/he can explain to you why s/he does not think a prescription diet is necessary.

However the foods ARE made to be the SOLE diet, to work properly, and for cats with severe issues or risk of blockage (males) I would not feed anything else.

Otto thanks for your explanation on the Cosequin. Again that was not the idea I got from the vet! I read some stuff on it and got confused exactly because of the arthritis stuff! The way you put it, it actually makes me feel better that the vet brought it up. I think his thinking was that he does not quite yet think that Teppo is 'prone'.

Now I wonder if anyone has some good links to Cosequin and/or any possible negatives to using it? I am sure I can find plenty and get confused again! I could read up on it and maybe I should consider something like generally better diet for Teppo with that kind of supplement considering that weight is more of a health issue with him right now. I could discuss these options with new vet and be better informed. If he then needs a full urinary diet, then so be it but I so worry about the weight issue with what I read about c/d.

Cosequin would not harm a healthy cat. It's just that you want to make sure Simba is getting it, since he's the one needing it.

Cosequin is a safe supplement with no side effects. I think the websit mentions a possible tummy upset that goes away after a few days, but I've never had any trouble, even with my tiny Ootay who took it for many years. I don't even think it's possible to od on it.

It comes in blister capsule form, in blister packs of 20, four packs to a box, a box contains 80 capsules, usually between $12-$15 a box depending on where you buy it. I generally purchase it from entirelypets.com which is where I usually find the best price.

Here is the Website for NutraMax: Cosequin for cats

I am def going to ask about this Cosequin now.
I hope it does not have any rebound effect. You know, if you give it and then don't, something nasty happens. I am mainly thinking that pet sitter would fail to give it - not that I am planning to get lousy pet sitter like that but that's always something that I fear with special things that need to be given...

I just had to chime in here as well since my boy is having similar problems: Ugh! I just can't take vets who don't take diet into account seriously. Unbelievable. Hill's, Royal Canin, etc., etc., are crap. The end. It's terrible food. Conventional vets typically know little to nothing about animal nutrition. It hasn't been mentioned here but Wysong makes an OTC "prescription" food for urinary problems (see: "Wysong Uretic Feline Diet") and you will find nothing but great things said about it all over the web, as that's where my referrals came from. I've only had my cats eating it for a few days so far so I can't speak for its UT effects personally yet, but they absolutely LOVE it (I first gave it to them as a "treat," so now they seem to think all they eat are treats) and, surprisingly, no digestive problems have resulted from the switch. I know you are supposed to transition slowly, but I went a little faster and it was just fine. One of the cats, Bo, gets diarrhea as soon as a morsel of different food enters his system. Not so with the Wysong. So, I'd highly recommend anyone debating over prescription urinary foods to consider this stuff.

My original plan was to put them on a wet-only diet to combat FLUTD (only one of them has issues), but I wasn't aware of how addicted they were to kibble. The problematic cat will eat a little bit of canned per day. He tends to prefer Weruva brand. I started them on the Wysong dry food when I realized they were not taking to canned food. How does including wet food counteract the effects of a specialized kibble, as I've read here? Not letting the prescription food work to its full potential because other foods are interrupting? Is moisture not as much of a concern since the precription food is designed to take care of the harm that comes with a dry-only diet?

I, too, have read of the beneficial effects of joint-oriented supplements such as glucosamine, MSM, chondroiton sulfate, etc. for FLUTD. Right now I've been giving them supplement treats from Pet Naturals ("Hip + Joint" which has all three of those as well as Omega-3s and I also give them the "UT Support" kind with cranberry and additional glucosamine).

Wysong has been mentioned here in this forum fairly often, in fact I think there are some members who feed it to their FLUTD cats, thanks for bringing it up.

These prescriptions foods are made the way they are for a reason. They are not "crap".

Sure, I would love for my Mazy cat to be able to eat what my other cats eat. However when she does, her crystals come back. On the Hills Prescription her urine is clear and crystal free, pH is nice and healthy at 6.2.

She has a ton of energy, in fact she plays all day long, the most active adult cat in the house, and she is over 6 years old. Her eyes are bright, her coat is thick, she's just as healthy as she can be.

Sometimes you have to go with the lesser of two evils. The Hills c/d keeps Mazy healthy and away from the vet (except for her six month check ups) and that is the whole point.

Prescription foods are made the way they are for a reason, and they have their place in the life and health of our beloved cats.

Be careful with adding cranberry. It can make the urine too acidic.

<edit> would like to caution anyone considering switching a cat on a prescription diet to Wysong, please discuss it with the attending vet who knows the cat's health history, first.

Ah. I just signed up yesterday so I just meant I hadn't seen it mentioned in this particular thread.

Fair enough. I still think it is an unfortunate status quo for prescription food. Make that all food. At least there are healthier options that have the same purpose even if they don't come out of the mouth of my almighty vet. If it works for your cat, great, but hopefully no problems will come of it down the road.

Thanks for the tip about cranberry. Hadn't considered that.

If problems come down the road I will deal with them. There are no guarantees in life.

I haven't tried Wysong Uretic for Mazy because it has some weird ingredients and I don't believe cats should have garlic, (or black pepper for that matter.) and I don't like them to have wheat, either.

I've tried switching her to an all canned (non prescription) high quality diet twice, one was grain free, one was not, and both times her urinary tract problems came back, worse than ever.

My vet and I do not always see eye to eye, and I sometimes go against what she thinks is best. She usually turns out to be right, in the end.

PS Welcome to TCS!

Ok, I'm tired and cranky, but my boy is on Hill's CD (kibble and wet) and his stone issue is resolved , at least as of today - no one can guarantee tomorrow. While the internet is just lovely, I'd rather have medicines developed, tested, and implemented by certified feline nutritionists and medical professionals and prescribed by a trained professional who has actually examined my cat, over recommendations on the net which may or may not be based in science or medicine. Certainly prescription food which has help millions of animals is not 'crap'.

Sometimes ingredients that look iffy to a lay person may have therapeutic effects. What's important to me is how my cat does on a food - and, if nothing else, it's often difficult to check a source's credentials on the net.

Also, for me, re supplements it's just like with a human - make sure your health care provider is apprised of all additions and that it's entered into the medical record.

Good luck in finding a food, and a vet, that works for your cat.

IMO, if someone has a UTI prone cat, any dietary change should be discussed thoroughly with the attending vet - even if suggestions are found on the internet. Most vets are happy to discuss diet plans - I've brought in proposed food specifications into the vet for discussion (emailed before the appointment).

But, I cannot stress too strongly that if a cat is prone to UTIs or any other chronic health issues, always keep your vet in the loop and apprised of any diet changes before the change is made. IMO, better to be safe and sorry.

I would be interested in more insight re: grain/free food in relation to urinary health too. I talked to the wet about our cats being on Wellness grainfree. He had no comments on that, and whether it would be good to pull it or keep it if Teppo was not going on urinary diet per se.

I am also planning to make some changes in general. Especially since Innova most likely will change now that the company changed - and it has been our main dry. Vet did not think his input was needed in 'general changes' unless Teppo has another issue. Doh.

I would however prefer not to start another multi-change try-out... I will consult another vet but like you say it would be nice and less time-consuming to have some suggestions to go with to the appointment... I need to keep some dry in the diet too. 100% wet will not work.

Wellness is NOT urinary tract friendly. I tried (against my vets advice) switching Mazy from her c/d kibble to Wellness grain free canned based on their claims that their food is urinary tract friendly.

In 6 weeks I brought Mazy in for a UA. Her pH was up to 7.5 and her urine was full of struvite crystals and phosphorous.

Tolly was also on a Wellness grain free diet, the pouches. He had a check up too, and since he had a full bladder I had the vet go ahead and do a UA, simply because I like to be thorough. Tolly has never had any urinary tract problems. HIS pH was also up to 7.5.

So no Wellness for Mazy or Tolly. Jennie is on the canned grain free Wellness only because it is the only food I have found that controls her constipation.

Queen Eva also eats some canned grain free wellness but also eats the variety of Tolly's canned chunks in gravy style chicken foods (Petite Cuisine, Blue, and I am also about to try the Weruva brand, Tolly needs variety)

I'd do away with Wellness altogether if I could find something else Jennie could eat that would not constipate her.

So..the whole point of this long monologue is that I do not recommend Wellness for cats with FLUTD or other urinary tract problems. Their claims are lies.

I'm sorry, I really don't know about grains and their affect on pH of the urine in the bladder.

However, I would like to address one thing in particular that I've seen only mentioned once in this thread.

With cats prone to bladder infections, urinary tract infections, or crystals in their urine, the BEST THING you can do for them is INCREASE their water intake.

In cases like this, the thinking by most is that even the worst wet food is better than a dry food diet. The goal is to keep the urine as dilute as posssible.

We have three boys that had problems until we put them on the prescription diet. We went with Hill's Science Diet c/d. The current version of c/d is formulated to create a pH neutral urine. The OTC "urinary tract health" foods are formulated to create a more acidic urine pH.

There are two types of crystals. One is struvite, one is calcium oxalate. In the past, there were MANY more cases (owned cat population taken in whole) of struvite crystals than calcium oxalate. Thus the move by cat food manufacturers to create a food that would lower the urine pH. THIS, however, appears to have caused an increase in the incidence of cats with problems with calcium oxalate crystals!

So if you have a kitty with a crystal or bladder or urinary tract infection problem, the first thing to do is focus on water intake. We let our kitties free feed on the dry c/d, and we feed them numerous meals of wet c/d daily, and we mix a little water in with the wet food. We also have a water fountain, and put out LOTS of water dishes, and keep the water clean and fresh. We're doing a lot more scooping than we used to, but we haven't had a problem with crystals for six years now.

If the problem is infections, then focus on a diet that will lower the pH of the urine (more acidic). If the problem is crystals, focus on a diet that will make the pH neutral - and this is best done via the prescription foods available.

One last comment - Cosequin is basically glucosamine, the same thing you see in drug stores for people with arthritis. The thinking is that it helps build the lining of the bladder wall. Prior research on it for helping with FLUTD has been disproven. That said, some people definitely see it help their cats. Some don't. Spooky has problems with cystitis sometimes, and Cosequin did/does not help her. I know Otto is having good success with it. Its use should be discussed with a vet in the overall approach to treating the kitty's problem(s) - but just bear in mind there have been mixed results. It certainly cannot harm your cat, and may help prevent arthritis.

The only thing is that you should keep an eye on ash and magnesium content in those wets. Sherman got crystals when he was only getting 1/4c of NB duck and pea - the rest was all wet, including some friskies varieties (fishy ones, too) that had ash content up around 3.0% or higher. My mistake for not being more careful there.

In a crystal prone kitty it would pay off to at least watch that.

A ash of 3% in a wet = roughly 9-12 % dry matter... Most UTI friendly foods are in the 6-7.5range

Grain free foods ave 9% ash .... the ash in most UTI formulated foods is 6.3-6.8

Due to the heavy use of meals in dry food the grains namely wheat, oats and rice help balance the higher % of minerals of the " meat name" meals ... This works mostly for poultry as red meat bones are less likely to make up a high % of the meal( by high I mean over 10% total wt)


Cosequin is a idea.. but realize to date the data for it and UTI health is inconclusive... IMHO trying a basic human supplement of glucosimine chondrotin and msm would be worth discussing as it is far cheaper and you have more control over inactive ingredients...

Just joined and must chime in. Cats are obligate carnivores. That means their bodies are designed to process MEAT only. They really need to avoid grains, although that's a cheap way to make money for PetFood companies.

A good nutritional information resource is catinfo.org.

The most important thing for urinary tract health is dilute urine!

Hope this helps.

m

One caution - after you do research on the web, PLEASE work with your own vet regarding diet, especially for cats with medical conditions. Neither Dr. Pierson nor anyone else on the internet has examined your cat.

But the key is to work with your vet to keep your particular cat healthy - feline nutrition is a recent, and evolving, field, so it never hurts to bring research to your vet, or to a certified feline nutritionist, for evaluation - but please please please consult your vet before making food changes.

Re urinary health - if my vet suggested one of the prescription lines, I go with it, at least for a trial. I speak from experience, as mentioned - my male had struvite crystals. Thank God for Hill's CD, in our case. And if kitty just hates wet food (and some do) - thank God there is a dry formula. The proof is in the pudding - my two go for semi-annual senior panels now, just in case something does happen and we need to modify the diet.

Your opinion is valid but incorrect in this situation by the vast majority of science in this area ... Ie wet is better than dry true but if the cat wont eat it one has to feed the cat ... Thus why many are thankful for RX drys.. Also did you bother to see that this is a 3-4 month old thread?

well put