A neverending urinary battle?

^Not to derail - but what the heck do we do if a cat with IBD/allergies/food intolerances gets crystals. I hope I never find out. I have one that can't have any chicken and another who vomits corn foods - he already sneaked some of Sherman's C/D before, it didn't stay down.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

^Not to derail - but what the heck do we do if a cat with IBD/allergies/food intolerances gets crystals. I hope I never find out. I have one that can't have any chicken and another who vomits corn foods - he already sneaked some of Sherman's C/D before, it didn't stay down.

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I don't know the answer. I worry about Mazy and when she gets older. What if she gets diabetes, or kidney disease?

C/d is high in carbs so not very good for a diabetic cat and c/d is not a food you want to feed a cat with CRF. What will I do then? Mazy is only 6, so I try not to borrow trouble, but I am a worrier, and I worry.

Originally Posted by xcourtney3

Aw, thanks

Everyone tells me my Simba is gorgeous.

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He truly is a cutiepie.

Again I read that Wellness is not good with urinary issues. Is there any more info on that anywhere? Also, I had not heard that NB Duck and Pea might be bad. This makes me wonder because 2 months before our first hit with UTI I had Teppo's brother on trial for Duck&Pea and of course Teppo got some of it too. Would something change, pH or something that fast? How do 'bad for the pee system' foods work?

My vet told me that they only need a tiny spoonful of pee. The thing is though that the older the sample is (the longer it takes it to get to lab), the harder it is to tell whether some crystals that are found were formed after the sample was taken. Do you know if Simba had a lot? In our case Teppo had very few crystals and the vet was very vague about the need for future treatment. Actually the vet has been pretty dang useless for aftercare, and I am just hoping the same does not happen to us that just happened to you and all of a sudden we have a second round

I am so conflicted about going on the Hill's c/d because I hear stories abourt weight gain. Teppo is in need of a diet and I am struggling to find a food I could change him to - especially if Wellness grainless is supposedly bad for him. Does anyone know if the Royal Canin Urinary formula is any better for a tubby cat? Our vet is not eager about it but I am already thinking of getting second opinion anyway. Also, how much help would it be just to change part of the diet to urinary formula, ie just feed dinner (wet) as Rx but otherwise keep regular diet? Could it be enough? Any way to know?

The prescription diets are formulated to work as the sole diet. Mixing with other foods defeats the purpose of the special food.

Once a cat has been stabilized, with several years of good annual urinalysis, adding occasional other foods might be okay. But in the beginning the prescription food should be the only food.

Royal canin is higher in fat than the Hills c/d so the weight gain issue is the same, or more so. Yes, when Mazy first went on the c/d I did have to make adjustments to her daily quantities.

She now eats just under 1/2 cup of c/d kibble a day (5 tablespoons). That amount is spread out over many small servings throughout the day. Mazy is a very active cat, part of that is on her own and part is my diligence in seeing she gets enough exercise.

If I am ill, or very busy with work, and as I result I slack off on the interactive Game time for a while, Mazy does gain weight.

Weight, by the way, is also an important factor in FLUTD. Kitties carrying too much weight can be prone to urinary tract problems. I forgot to mention that before.

Originally Posted by otto

I don't know the answer. I worry about Mazy and when she gets older. What if she gets diabetes, or kidney disease?

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There's lots of terrible what if's. My worst fear at the moment is "what if my kittens actually do have chronic bronchitis?", it's progressive. In the meantime I do my best to get wet into all the cats and hope it keeps urinary issues away (didn't work with Sherman). Diabetes is at least preventable in part that you can watch Mazy's weight closely.

piikki: The problem with the C/D is that it's carby. Fat isn't as big of an issue as the carbs are. If you have to switch to a urinary formula you simply have to put more effort into getting Teppo's weight down. Better yet if you can start working on that soon. While you shouldn't play with food on your own, you can at least work on an exercise schedule.
If you're not happy with your current vet you may want to use this time to look for one that follows up with you better. A good test would be talking to a vet concerning Teppo's weight as that would require a vet to work on a plan with you.

What's the consensus on OTC urinary foods?

Originally Posted by xcourtney3

What's the consensus on OTC urinary foods?

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talk with your vet ... many OTC no longer state this claim as too many used them instead of Rx foods

It's just better to go with the script foods on this. They may not be cheap, but they're still cheaper than vet bills.

I'll chime in that my Muddy didn't like either the SD or the Royal Canin urinary foods, but absolutely loves the Purina UR. I think it's more like junk food and he just took to it immediately. He's on prescription urinary food the rest of his life - he has idiopathic cystitis and can flip between crystals and UTI's if I don't stay on top of it.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

It's just better to go with the script foods on this. They may not be cheap, but they're still cheaper than vet bills.

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I, personally, am not too concerned about the cost. I would willingly pay extra and put all of my boys on the script food if I got some sort of unanimous vote of confidence that it was good food. However, my vet seems to be of no use at this point (total bail out) and I have very little to go on with previous Rx food experience.
We have only been exposed to Hill's dental diet and with that vet said "This is NOT good food in general, so do only feed it as snacks, not as a main diet". I read the package only later and found several crappy ingredients and was horrified I had given it as a snack to Teppo (who most needed it for oral health and least for the crappy ingredients from our cats).

Let's just say I am not so strong in my trust with vets and Rx diets at the moment. What's the point of treating one problem and possibly creating another or more than one in exchange? I realize UTI:s/blocks are incredibly serious issues but so is eg diabetes.

Needless to say I am again looking for another vet for a second opinion. It just seems a lot of vets are not too into nutrition here.

Originally Posted by piikki

What's the point of treating one problem and possibly creating another or more than one in exchange? I realize UTI:s/blocks are incredibly serious issues but so is eg diabetes.

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Right now, if Teppo is very overweight that's already a risk. I'm not concerned with this for my cat on C/D because I have adjusted the calories going in and do play with him. He gained a small amount of weight (maybe .2-.3lbs) at first but never gained anymore. You simply have to be diligent and look for this or have a scale handy.

I hope you can find a better vet you can trust.

My boy had crystals. He's on Hills CD dry with a small amount of wet Hills CD (he doesn't care for wet food in general). Re weight, it's calories used has to equal or surpass calories ingested - my vet helped me with portion sizes, and I do try to get him to exercise as much as possible. He's good now - he could lose a few ounces, but no UTIs or other box issues since he's been on Hills and we figured out how much wet he can tolerate at a meal.

I'd get another opinion and interview vets til you find one you like, but for me the prescription foods are there for a reason, and if you get good results, I wouldn't overly worry about the ingredients. Sure, Hills, to a layman, may look iffy - but it's my cat's health and the lab results that I care about. I'd actually worry about a vet who didn't suggest prescription foods, at least as a trial.

And, as far as I can tell, none of the OTC foods are equivalent to the prescription foods.

I have been to quite a few vets over the years, as I have moved around a lot with my cats. Not a single one has EVER been against prescription diets. I can understand if the vet just felt that your cat didn't need a prescription diet, but from what I understand, prescription diets often help keep cats (and dogs) from having to take some medications. I try to think of it in the same light as humans: if my doctor tells me to avoid certain foods to help me keep my cholesterol down, that means I won't have to take a cholesterol-lowering pill unless I have a genetic problem, too. (Or that is the hope, in any case!) But cholesterol-containing foods also have other things that may be necessary for my diet (omega-3, protein, etc), so there is a chance that by avoiding cholesterol, I will cause other problems. I think it is basically a balancing act. You put your cat on the prescription diet if he/she will eat it, and you and your vet work on balancing how much the cat should eat and exercise to keep down the weight.
IMO, I would find another vet for a second opinion before doing anything.
As for everyone worrying about your babies developing problems as they age - to me that just shows that I am in the right place! When my husband leaves the toilet seat up, I have a picture of one of my babies drowning... if dental floss drops out of the trash onto the floor, I imagine a nightmare stomach operation ensuing... My cats are like my children (or what I imagine my children would be like if I had any!) and it is only natural for moms and dads to worry about their kids, right?!

I hope you don't feel like I am hi-jacking your thread Courtney! Hopefully there's some info that will help Simba too.

Thanks folks. So the consensus is that cat would need to be on all urinary diet? This is news for me as I particularly asked my vet would it be enough to only add c/d wet and keep the kibble part as is. He seemed to think it was perfectly enough.

On the other hand, our vet was totally not promoting the urinary diet. He was like 'you could but I dunno if it really is needed'. He actually FIRST mentioned the pill. I thought that was preferred but as I was kind of put off by the idea of meds and asked if it was necessary and would he need to take it for the rest of his life, he backed off and said it really kinda isn't in Teppo's case. He left me totally unsure. The pill as I understood was Cosequin.

All in all my impression was the vet thought that Teppo's UTI/crystals were stress related and we should see if they return and hope for the best??? Is this common approach with first incident you think? (Well, maybe with first incident if lab findings aren't drastically bad and there is no blockage etc).

Anyway, I got one referral for another vet from a person who I think knows a bit more about how to judge a vet. She is involved with rescue, not into nutrition too much, but at least I would think she can judge vets a bit more than layperson. Wish me luck. Teppo's brother is up for annual, so I think I take him for a test visit first and if that goes well, Teppo for a second opinion.

No, I definitely don't mind. I have a feeling I'm going to be in your position when I go for the follow up, because I have a feeling the vet won't recommend a RX diet. When I was talking to them, they seemed to disregard diet as source of his problem. If this is the case, should I get a second opinion? I'm thinking about just going ahead and taking him to a different vet for his follow up testing.

Originally Posted by piikki

I hope you don't feel like I am hi-jacking your thread Courtney! Hopefully there's some info that will help Simba too.

Thanks folks. So the consensus is that cat would need to be on all urinary diet? This is news for me as I particularly asked my vet would it be enough to only add c/d wet and keep the kibble part as is. He seemed to think it was perfectly enough.

On the other hand, our vet was totally not promoting the urinary diet. He was like 'you could but I dunno if it really is needed'. He actually FIRST mentioned the pill. I thought that was preferred but as I was kind of put off by the idea of meds and asked if it was necessary and would he need to take it for the rest of his life, he backed off and said it really kinda isn't in Teppo's case. He left me totally unsure. The pill as I understood was Cosequin.

All in all my impression was the vet thought that Teppo's UTI/crystals were stress related and we should see if they return and hope for the best??? Is this common approach with first incident you think? (Well, maybe with first incident if lab findings aren't drastically bad and there is no blockage etc).

Anyway, I got one referral for another vet from a person who I think knows a bit more about how to judge a vet. She is involved with rescue, not into nutrition too much, but at least I would think she can judge vets a bit more than layperson. Wish me luck. Teppo's brother is up for annual, so I think I take him for a test visit first and if that goes well, Teppo for a second opinion.

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Cosequin for cats is very beneficial for FLUTD kitties. My Mazy takes it every day. It's not a prescription drug, it's a supplement, made by NutraMax. (not the same as Nutro fooods) It comes in capsule form and you simply sprinkle the contents of the capsule over the cat's food once a day. Most cats like the taste.

Cosequin for cats is an arthritis supplement but has been found in some studies to benefit FLUTD cats by keeping the bladder walls smooth and supple, so things (such as crystals) do not stick and linger, rather they get flushed as fast as they form. (my unscientific understanding)

Cosequin is made up of the same stuff that is in the human arthritis supplement, glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM. I highly recommend it for kitties prone to crystal formation, along with prescription diet or not.

Every vet approaches things differently. You could try talking with the vet and see if s/he can explain to you why s/he does not think a prescription diet is necessary.

However the foods ARE made to be the SOLE diet, to work properly, and for cats with severe issues or risk of blockage (males) I would not feed anything else.

Would Cosequin negatively affect a healthy cat? Just wondering if I would need to make sure Simba ate it separately or if it would be ok if Pumpkin (his healthy sister) ate some of the food with the Cosequin?

Otto thanks for your explanation on the Cosequin. Again that was not the idea I got from the vet! I read some stuff on it and got confused exactly because of the arthritis stuff! The way you put it, it actually makes me feel better that the vet brought it up. I think his thinking was that he does not quite yet think that Teppo is 'prone'.

Now I wonder if anyone has some good links to Cosequin and/or any possible negatives to using it? I am sure I can find plenty and get confused again! I could read up on it and maybe I should consider something like generally better diet for Teppo with that kind of supplement considering that weight is more of a health issue with him right now. I could discuss these options with new vet and be better informed. If he then needs a full urinary diet, then so be it but I so worry about the weight issue with what I read about c/d.

Originally Posted by xcourtney3

Would Cosequin negatively affect a healthy cat? Just wondering if I would need to make sure Simba ate it separately or if it would be ok if Pumpkin (his healthy sister) ate some of the food with the Cosequin?

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Cosequin would not harm a healthy cat. It's just that you want to make sure Simba is getting it, since he's the one needing it.

Originally Posted by piikki

Otto thanks for your explanation on the Cosequin. Again that was not the idea I got from the vet! I read some stuff on it and got confused exactly because of the arthritis stuff! The way you put it, it actually makes me feel better that the vet brought it up. I think his thinking was that he does not quite yet think that Teppo is 'prone'.

Now I wonder if anyone has some good links to Cosequin and/or any possible negatives to using it? I am sure I can find plenty and get confused again! I could read up on it and maybe I should consider something like generally better diet for Teppo with that kind of supplement considering that weight is more of a health issue with him right now. I could discuss these options with new vet and be better informed. If he then needs a full urinary diet, then so be it but I so worry about the weight issue with what I read about c/d.

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Cosequin is a safe supplement with no side effects. I think the websit mentions a possible tummy upset that goes away after a few days, but I've never had any trouble, even with my tiny Ootay who took it for many years. I don't even think it's possible to od on it.

It comes in blister capsule form, in blister packs of 20, four packs to a box, a box contains 80 capsules, usually between $12-$15 a box depending on where you buy it. I generally purchase it from entirelypets.com which is where I usually find the best price.

Here is the Website for NutraMax: Cosequin for cats

I am def going to ask about this Cosequin now.
I hope it does not have any rebound effect. You know, if you give it and then don't, something nasty happens. I am mainly thinking that pet sitter would fail to give it - not that I am planning to get lousy pet sitter like that but that's always something that I fear with special things that need to be given...