Vet advising against raw meat diet supplement, fears E. Coli

Originally Posted by otto

Thanks for your clarification. You didn't say big cats though, you said wild cats.

A feral cat is not going to take down a cow.

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Don't tell that to Storm then



And I for one will never take the risk of feeding dry "food" again. Its raw all the way here Achieving the 80/10/5/5 ratio isn't hard at all...and if you are worried about the correct balance stick with whole prey. I've only been feeding all raw for a year...but with the 24 cats I have eating a raw diet none of them have any health problems. In fact prior to them eating raw I had at least 5 of them get very sick in the winter...last winter one cat got a very mild cold!

Originally Posted by otto

Thanks for your clarification. You didn't say big cats though, you said wild cats.

However, I still disagree with the comparison. They may be built similar on the inside, but the fact remains that cats are cats and lions are lions. A feral cat is not going to take down a cow.

She's going to hunt a mouse.

I know that cats have short digestive tracts and bacteria is not necessarily a problem for them, though as I said before, I have seen cats and dogs become very very sick from improper raw feeding.

And I would imagine it would depend on what their systems are used to. I have a feeling if my Tolly, for instance, was forced to dumpster dive to survive, he would become very sick indeed.

I am not against raw diets, if it's done right. (often it is not) It was the vet bashing that rubbed me the wrong way. Just because a vet is not gung-ho about raw feeding does not make him/her a bad vet and I felt that was very poor advice.

Better to suggest to the OP that she have a long discussion with her vet about why she wants to supplement with raw, why the vet advises against it, and have an exchange of ideas and knowledge, so everyone wins.

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To the OP and others on the thread, I retract all my previous statements about Vets and the benefits of raw feedings.
Clearly, being inexperienced in the feline department, I don't know what I'm talking about.
I leave it to the experts here to ensure proper advice is given and semantics are correct.

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

To the OP and others on the thread, I retract all my previous statements about Vets and the benefits of raw feedings.
Clearly, being inexperienced in the feline department, I don't know what I'm talking about.
I leave it to the experts here to ensure proper advice is given and semantics are correct.

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Now you know why many don't bother talking about raw

I don't eat beef but I wouldn't trust beef from Wal-Mart and other places like that anyway for my family (2 legs and 4 legs). Not only for the nasty stuff in it, strange colors, and reported off taste but I don't agree with the ethics/policies that large companies have in place to increase profit off of the animals.
If you are interested in feeding raw, which is a fine decision IMO as long as you have researched and are prepared for what it takes, you might enjoy yahoo groups, there are several raw feeding groups for pets in yahoo.
Cats are carnivores and would benefit from this type of diet, be it prepared by you, or prepackaged raw diets such as Nature's Variety.
I don't feed it myself for personal reasons it doesn't work for me, but I know those who do and they are very happy with their decision and so are their pets. You can find a holistic vet here:
www.holisticvetlist.com

Originally Posted by cococat

I don't eat beef but I wouldn't trust beef from Wal-Mart and other places like that anyway for my family (2 legs and 4 legs). Not only for the nasty stuff in it, strange colors, and reported off taste but I don't agree with the ethics/policies that large companies have in place to increase profit off of the animals.
If you are interested in feeding raw, which is a fine decision IMO as long as you have researched and are prepared for what it takes, you might enjoy yahoo groups, there are several raw feeding groups for pets in yahoo.
Cats are carnivores and would benefit from this type of diet, be it prepared by you, or prepackaged raw diets such as Nature's Variety.
I don't feed it myself for personal reasons it doesn't work for me, but I know those who do and they are very happy with their decision and so are their pets. You can find a holistic vet here:
www.holisticvetlist.com

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Well put...
note the above link is far from all holistic vets, many choose older methods of getting the word out like word of mouth and print media

You have to exercise precautions in handling raw meat of any sort at any time whether your end consumer is human, feline or canine. I do occasionally feed my boys raw and they love it. I buy whole meat and freeze it (it is a treat, not part of the reg diet so B vit. loss isn't an issue.) I get it at a wonderful grocery store here (Hiller's), Whole Foods (organic and local) or from a local vendor at the farmer's market who raises grass fed cattle and processes locally. THAT beef is yummy and the cats are crrrrrrazy about it. (They get stew chunks chopped up.) It's pricey, but I eat it too - cooked of course. And my vet was also leery of raw. But as I said, it is a treat, not a large percent of their diet.

I was saying if her vet was giving her trouble about it to find one that supports it if she wants to continue feeding raw and not hearing the vet giving her a hard time. I never said her vet was a bad vet. I love my vets and they are great but they are against raw as well. If I fed raw and they were giving me a really hard time about it I would find a new vet, not because they are bad vets but because they were giving me a very hard time about what I was feeding.

When I had Mama inside when she was recovering from her prolapse I had to make sure no garbage cans were around or she would go right for them and see if there was anything to eat. When she was in the bathroom alone she tore up the can in there seeing if there was anything edible. None of the 3 we had ever touched garbage cans. Maude was on the streets long enough that I think she was semi-feral and she wouldn't touch the garbage cans. Keep in mind Mama had food but she still went through the trash. Like I said I know all the outside ones have ate bird, squirrel and I know they have caught moles(not sure if they ate any, they left 2 as a 'present' for us on the porch.) I know Mama had been a dumpster diver at one point and they have never been sick from any of it and they are immuno-comprised cats with FeLV so they are a lot more prone to getting sick from raw stuff and trash and bacteria and other nasties.

Like I said as long as you know how to do it RIGHT there is nothing wrong with it. If you have no idea what the hack you are doing either find out how to do it right or stick to kibble or wet food or some other commercial diet. Dogs can live on a vegetarian diet but it would kill a cat so you have to know what you are doing. They also have different requirements for a good diet so feeding a dog raw is different from feeding a cat raw.

Like I said it's the humans that are at risk, not the cats so follow proper food handling practices and make sure no one except animals get into their bowls. As I said I'm assuming your children don't get into the animals bowls(prolly old enough to know better.) I haven't had a problem with Bobby and food bowls since he was 2 so they get over the pick through the bowls and take a bite stage quickly. Cats will pretty much eat whatever they can so they won't get sick from raw meat and with all the testing of food now there is a lesser chance of food borne illnesses than there was in the past. Also, American meat doesn't contain parasites.

Taryn

Originally Posted by Willowy

Commercially raised American meat does not have parasites

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Originally Posted by Taryn

Also, American meat doesn't contain parasites.

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Would you two like to tell me where you are reading this information? It's not from the CDC, apparently.
Why are pregnant women cautioned to be careful when handling raw meat and to make sure it's fully cooked?
Probably because toxoplasmosis is the third leading cause of foodborne illness in the US. Typically from pork.
Beef and chicken are less effected.

She was talking worms not toxoplasmosis. We(or at least I) was saying there weren't worms in raw meat. I wasn't talking about other parasites. I know toxo, and listeria are alive and well here, there have been plenty of listeria recalls and toxo is about everywhere. There is a reason I didn't eat cold cuts for my entire pregnancy, didn't do soft cheese(not that I have been into soft cheese), refused to change the litter box(for Spaz, even got in a huge fight with my husband over it because he thought I was full of you know what) and tried to avoid handling raw meat at all.

Sorry should have been more specific.

Taryn

Originally Posted by Taryn

We(or at least I) was saying there weren't worms in raw meat.

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Try reading the links I posted. It does mention roundworms and tapeworms - though again pork is the main problem (and lamb).

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

To the OP and others on the thread, I retract all my previous statements about Vets and the benefits of raw feedings.
Clearly, being inexperienced in the feline department, I don't know what I'm talking about.
I leave it to the experts here to ensure proper advice is given and semantics are correct.

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Originally Posted by missymotus

Now you know why many don't bother talking about raw

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But if those of us who are experienced and knowledgeable don't talk about it, those who are truly interested and trying to learn will have a harder time getting the info, and those who don't even know it's an option will never hear it at all. That would truly be a loss!

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." ~ Margaret Mead

Just look at this forum as an example.... two years ago, standard knowledge stated kibble was a good choice for cats; now, it's commonly accepted that canned is the far better option. Who knows, maybe in another two years, the discussion won't be "oh, my gosh, how can you risk feeding raw?" but "hey, anyone want to split a hundred pound order of chicken necks with me?"

To Bahger - Your vet, as so many have said, is simply uninformed. There are many sites dedicated to raw-feeding, including a sub-forum here on our beloved TCS. :-) People all over the world have been feeding raw with wonderful results for decades. If it's something you're truly interested in, I say study up on it - and then go for it. :-)

Has anybody stated the factual evidence that raw is beneficial? Other than saying "they eat raw outside anyway" - I mean information brought about through studies. Not personal opinion. Because the parasites, etc. that can appear within commercially raised meat here, and furthermore, bacteria - are more than likely brought about by the forced packed conditions the animals are in. Which, say, mice would not be.

And if anybody thinks 'commercially produced' meat doesn't have harmful things within it... especially in america... wow. This is america - i.e. consumerism, the more we can produce, the better (i don't agree with this idea, but it is what it is). Obviously with recalls left and right, there's a growing downfall in the quality of production here.

Originally Posted by Aly317

Obviously with recalls left and right, there's a growing downfall in the quality of production here.

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It's not necessarily that quality is so much worse lately as it is that more stuff is actually looked for - better testing that provides quicker results are available now.
In fact, parasite infection and the load in animals is better controlled in the US now. The former through education and more health inspections/regulation enforcement.

As for non-bias studies, sharky may have some bookmarked somewhere. She's one of the most logical people on here to discuss pet foods with.

And even though people may think otherwise, I'm not against raw feeding at all. Just that most people hate effort and balancing a complex diet for any animal from healthy sources takes a lot of effort. Lots of people can get ahead of themselves because it's human nature to jump in before one is ready (the human brain is actually hardwired for irrational behavior, it's quite interesting).

Originally Posted by strange_wings

It's not necessarily that quality is so much worse lately as it is that more stuff is actually looked for - better testing that provides quicker results are available now.
In fact, parasite infection and the load in animals is better controlled in the US now. The former through education and more health inspections/regulation enforcement.
.

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I believe all this is false and this is coming from someone who is in a family where cattle is raised for beef. I think you would like the movie Food Inc. strangewings. This book is worth a read too: http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile.../dp/1594200823

Originally Posted by cococat

I believe all this is false and this is coming from someone who is in a family where cattle is raised for beef.

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I was referring to parasites. Were the quick result tests available now around 100 years ago? Had they even identified all of them? Did they know what prion diseases were 30-40 years ago?

Bacteria wise, handling is better than it was if all regulations are followed and testing is frequent. (has anyone here even read The Jungle? Was that better?!)

Quality, nutrient wise, food isn't better. But what does one expect when humans simply won't stop mass breeding? The food industry has to keep up with a population that just keeps getting larger and larger and so does the demand.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

I was referring to parasites. Were the quick result tests available now around 100 years ago? Had they even identified all of them? Did they know what prion diseases were 30-40 years ago?

Bacteria wise, handling is better than it was if all regulations are followed and testing is frequent. (has anyone here even read The Jungle? Was that better?!)

Quality, nutrient wise, food isn't better. But what does one expect when humans simply won't stop mass breeding? The food industry has to keep up with a population that just keeps getting larger and larger and so does the demand.

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I did read the jungle and well one really would hope and think we are doing better than at that pt

Originally Posted by Aly317

And if anybody thinks 'commercially produced' meat doesn't have harmful things within it... especially in america... wow.

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Oh, I certainly think there are harmful things in the meat. Just not parasites . And the harmful stuff (hormones, antibiotic residue, etc.) that remains is the same whether it's fresh meat or used in kibble.

I have enver met a raw-fed cat so I can't comment on the benefits, but I have known some raw-fed dogs and the improvement can be dramatic. Especially for dogs with food intolerances. Home-preparing meals is really the only way to know 100% what's in your pet's food.

Originally Posted by Willowy

Home-preparing meals is really the only way to know 100% what's in your pet's food.

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Agreed.

Should anyone be interested in knowing what may be in many commercial kibbles, take the time to watch this video:


Fair warning, it is graphic and disturbing.

Also worth a read is this book:
Foods Pet Die For
http://www.amazon.com/Food-Pets-Die-.../dp/0939165317

When your vet says something like this it's because they don't know what the heck they are talking about. Vets don't get trained in the area of nutrition very well. What little training they do get is mostly from representatives from companies such as Iam's and Purina.
I will NEVER, and I mean NEVER, take a vet seriously who tells me anything of the sort like that.
Yeah, humans can't eat raw meat and can't handle things like E. Coli and bacteria because they weren't designed to eat it raw (and some might argue whether we were designed to eat meat at all). Cats' stomach acids are very strong, much stronger than humans and can easily kill bacteria and such and it is perfectly safe for them to eat raw. Anyone who argues otherwise doesn't know what THEY are talking about either. Everyone is so worried about getting the right balance etc. when they don't need to be so obsessed and paranoid over it! So many pets today have so many health problems vets weren't seeing before commercial junk came about. I hate commercial food. Even the so called "better" kibbles and canned foods. They aren't better because they are still processed, you still can't be 100% sure what is in them and they are not the diet a cat or dog should be eating. Period. I wish commercial pet food would go away and never come back. It's for human convenience and because people have been so brain-washed by the advertising that anything else is not nutritionally complete.

Bottom line is that raw is best, always will be best, is relatively simple to feed and is often cheaper then feeding the "better" commercial foods.

*steps off of soap box*