Vet advising against raw meat diet supplement, fears E. Coli

I think your Vet has his head lodged squarely up his rectum.

What does he think wild cats eat? I wonder what he thinks feral cats eat???

Commerical canned foods and kibble are merely for convenient long term storage and ease of use by humans. They aren't safer than human grade grocery store bought raw meats.

I'm so tired of Vets using the old E. Coli lie, if it's not that they claim toxoplasmosis.

Nonsense!

Time to find a new Vet in my opinion.

I would suggest calling around and finding a like minded vet... Yes you need to take basic precautions but like Kai Bengals said it is a common line from one who has not researched

I have been up one side and down the other on this debate when it comes to dogs ever since the Delta Society banned pets who even get so much as one bone from the butcher from being part of their program. Basically I think it is a very very muddy subject. As far as the literature goes which focuses on dogs (some of which includes feline diets) each and every one that I have seen is flawed in some way. For example, they measure bacteria levels on stool samples of pets fed a raw commercial diet. Come on, commercial raw diets are always ground meat and there is going to be a high bacteria load because of the increase in surface available by grinding.

But if you want to hit your vet with a counterargument, try this:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Health/...1344300&page=1

According to the Institute of Pediatrics, dry pet food is so utterly nasty that little kids got sick not just from trying out a piece of kibble, but even touching a surface that the kibble had touched.

^2006-2008. Yes, it's true that pet food can be contaminated with salmonella. That's why they test and recall for it - they're not worried about the animals getting sick, but people. (silly question, but did anyone else eat pet food as a toddler/young child and survive perfectly fine? )

I think the case here is simply that your vet is not studied in this area and definitely doesn't feel comfortable overseeing this diet. You can't blame a person for this. As sharky suggested, shop around for a vet who is experienced in this area, you'll need them.

As for meat and e-coli. It is a risk. The USDA has been having serious problems with it over the last few years, so much so that a lot of grocery store meat is likely contaminated with it. You vet isn't wrong about that.
If you want to go all raw, see if you can source a good high quality butcher. You'll be giving your money to a business that big chain supermarkets are running out of business, too.

Ah you always write so well ... I did eat dog food and biscuits as a toddler and am here

Me too, lol. I wonder if they cook the meat for large cats in the zoo? x

They feed raw with MEGA doses of vitamins and minerals added to make a 'complete" diet

Well, if you can find a good butcher, simply get all of your meats there. You could have it fresh ground for you or get a grinder for at home. You maybe be able to get more than the standard pork, beef, and chicken this way - so the whole family can benefit.

No need to short the human family members. Plus, don't forget if you freeze meat for cat use that freezing does degrade some vitamins (Bs).

Basically just shop around. I don't have the butcher option around here because of chain stores and it being a poorer rural area, but if you have one do price them. I really wish I did as I'd feel confidant adding raw into my cats diet then, but I won't do it on low quality grocery or wal-mart meats.

Bobby had a thing for pet food when he was a toddler. I remember catching him eating cat food and asked to see the bag. I needed to make sure it didn't have beef in it because he was moderately to severely allergic to beef, or any form of dairy because he was severely- very severely to all dairy(carrying an EpiPen Jr with you everywhere is no fun, having to try and explain that your diaper bag can't be within any small person's reach and why but even without the EpiPen I carried Benedryl so either way it had to be out of reach, thankfully never had to use one and hope I never do but he doesn't need an EpiPen now and he outgrew beef but dairy, although his allergy is not as severe as it was, still hangs on), other than that I tried to keep him away from the food but since I knew it didn't have beef or dairy in it I wasn't too worried about him eating it if he got a few pieces before I could get him away from the food. He never got sick from it.

It's mainly for human protection when it comes to e-coli or salmonella, Abby, my Old English Sheepdog, got a pig's ear every night and all over the packaging it had warning to wash your hands well after handling them or you might get salmonella and that isn't good. Abby was old, blind, and had severe arthritis and was on heavy meds for said arthritis(no other choice, her arthritis was bad, not yet PTS bad but heavily medicated bad) and she never got sick from them, but a human could. Abby died(at 11 1/2 so she was OLD by sheepdog standards) from a burst liver or spleen which could have been caused by the arthritis meds(she had checked out fine at her senior appointment less than 6 months prior and they had taken her off Rimadyl to something less hepatoxic for her liver's sake even though it was perfectly fine.) It also simply could have been she was old. Anyways my old decrepit dog ate stuff that could have been(and prolly was) infected with salmonella and she was fine. Animals don't get sick from this stuff like we do.

However there are exceptions, mine can never be fed raw due to feline leukemia(even raw advocates agree that FeLV+ or FIV+ never be fed raw) due to their compromised immune systems, so they could pick up something that could kill them. I will say my outside ones that also have FeLV do occasionally catch something and eat it and they've never been sick, but they are outside and it's impossible to keep them from occasionally catching something and eating it.

If your cat(s) are healthy then feed them raw if you want to, I'm assuming you know how to do it right to make sure they are getting all the necessary nutrients. Just go to a high quality butcher to get meat from and obviously wash your hands after preparing it and keep your kids out of the cats bowls(which I'm assuming isn't an issue.) In other words, just follow general food safety guidelines for humans and you'll be fine.

Find a new vet, one that has no issues with raw feeding.

BTW- no vet sells high quality kibble out of their office, they sell Science Diet which I wouldn't feed to any cats, it's too expensive for all the crap it contains, it's like Iams. I'm talking about regular Science Diet not Hill's prescription, those are medicine and are made the way they are for a reason. Mine knows I am happy with what I feed and I'm not going to change but they don't really recommend food anyways unless it's prescription.

Taryn

Your vet does not know what he/she is talking about. With my wildcats, they get nothing but an all raw meat diet. I never had E. Coli and either have my cats. Of course, you should always wash your hands after handling any raw meat, but cats have the ability to eat raw meat without any effects. Wildcats will often eat, then cover their food and come back to eat more at a later time. These cats do not get sick, even after that meat has been sitting around in warm weather. There is a much higher risk of you getting sick, if you do not handle the meat properly. (not washing your hands or counter tops after handling raw meat) However, I don't know how many times, I will prepare my cats food and only rinse my hands under water or just wipe them with a paper towel and then eat something. I have not been sick yet, but I may be one of the lucky ones. Funny thing is, even my vet, who has a degree in zoology as well, gets weird about me feeding my wildcats an all raw meat diet. I tell her they are wildcats, they are meant to eat raw meat. You should see the look I get, when I tell her they are given whole mice and rats for treats They will even catch their own live prey, that happens to stray into their enclosures. (opossum, mice, moles etc)

I agree with the find a new vet idea. I feed raw to my dog, and sometimes her meat is stuff I wouldn't eat- but she just loves it more then and she has never gotten sick. I am lucky enough to have a vet that is happy as long as she is given an assortment of things, and the occasional veggie.

Well they certainly don't eat cows! Wild cats and feral cats really aren't a good comparison. The "raw meat" they eat are rodents and birds, not meat processed by humans.

Just because a vet is against raw feeding does not mean the vet is not a good vet.

Feeding raw is a risk if proper precautions aren't taken. Many people don't bother with proper hygiene or don't educate themselves. So vets are leery.

I'm no experts but I know a few people who have gotten sick, or their pets have gotten sick, from raw feeding, because they didn't do it right.

Sorry, but wild cats do eat cows, as I was refering to the big cats. The digestive system is virtually the same as their smaller feline cousins. In addition, the meat isn't processed if you get it direct from a butcher or a hunter.
Feral cats eat what they can find, which includes dumpster diving, so just imagine how bacteria ridden some of the things they eat are, and still they do fine.
I'm sure meat processed by humans would be a big improvement for those cats.

Until coming on this board, I never even heard of feeding them raw meat. But I have a question : tons of parasites can be found in raw meat. They can literally destroy their hosts, and if your pet intakes the parasite, there's even a chance of it passing to you. I don't see why anyone would take the risk? It just seems like a fine line to walk on. What are the cold hard factual backings for it? Not trying to offend, I just really want to know - does it really improve their quality and length of life? With absolute positive statistics backing it up? We've had plenty of 19-21 year old cats who live fine and happy and healthy lives on regular canned and dry food. I just wouldn't take the risk.

What raw meat do you feed them? I sure hope not fish, as parasites are pretty common in fish if not frozen or cooked first.

Thanks for your clarification. You didn't say big cats though, you said wild cats.

However, I still disagree with the comparison. They may be built similar on the inside, but the fact remains that cats are cats and lions are lions. A feral cat is not going to take down a cow. She's going to hunt a mouse.

I know that cats have short digestive tracts and bacteria is not necessarily a problem for them, though as I said before, I have seen cats and dogs become very very sick from improper raw feeding.

And I would imagine it would depend on what their systems are used to. I have a feeling if my Tolly, for instance, was forced to dumpster dive to survive, he would become very sick indeed.

I am not against raw diets, if it's done right. (often it is not) It was the vet bashing that rubbed me the wrong way. Just because a vet is not gung-ho about raw feeding does not make him/her a bad vet and I felt that was very poor advice.

Better to suggest to the OP that she have a long discussion with her vet about why she wants to supplement with raw, why the vet advises against it, and have an exchange of ideas and knowledge, so everyone wins.

Maybe we can make this a different thread.... but I will say it likely will open a can of worms...

cats have much shorter GI tracts and much shorter digestion times than humans thus the bacteria normally do not have that much time to replicate

^The problem arises when grocery stores have had that meat for a while and the bacteria content is already high.

I'm not sure how many strays you've taken in that had to live off of garbage, but one thing is usually common among them. Digestive issues. I have one taken in as a stray that doesn't have food issues or didn't come to me with funky stools and gas. So they do not do fine, they just manage to survive because that's all they can do.

Oh, and a large part of a feral cats diet (in warm months) is insects.

Commercially raised American meat does not have parasites--can you imagine the recalls?!? They do recalls over eColi and salmonella, which are almost unavoidable under the circumstances, if there were parasites I can't imagine the uproar. Wild game does sometimes have parasites, but that's what wildcats and feral cats eat and they do OK. I don't think it's a huge concern for the cats--it's what they were meant to eat--but the humans do have to be more careful. I'm not sure about fish. . .if I recall correctly there's something about raw salmon. I don't feed raw on a regular basis, but I did look into it for my dogs so I have a basic understanding.

Don't tell that to Storm then



And I for one will never take the risk of feeding dry "food" again. Its raw all the way here Achieving the 80/10/5/5 ratio isn't hard at all...and if you are worried about the correct balance stick with whole prey. I've only been feeding all raw for a year...but with the 24 cats I have eating a raw diet none of them have any health problems. In fact prior to them eating raw I had at least 5 of them get very sick in the winter...last winter one cat got a very mild cold!

To the OP and others on the thread, I retract all my previous statements about Vets and the benefits of raw feedings.
Clearly, being inexperienced in the feline department, I don't know what I'm talking about.
I leave it to the experts here to ensure proper advice is given and semantics are correct.

Now you know why many don't bother talking about raw

I don't eat beef but I wouldn't trust beef from Wal-Mart and other places like that anyway for my family (2 legs and 4 legs). Not only for the nasty stuff in it, strange colors, and reported off taste but I don't agree with the ethics/policies that large companies have in place to increase profit off of the animals.
If you are interested in feeding raw, which is a fine decision IMO as long as you have researched and are prepared for what it takes, you might enjoy yahoo groups, there are several raw feeding groups for pets in yahoo.
Cats are carnivores and would benefit from this type of diet, be it prepared by you, or prepackaged raw diets such as Nature's Variety.
I don't feed it myself for personal reasons it doesn't work for me, but I know those who do and they are very happy with their decision and so are their pets. You can find a holistic vet here:
www.holisticvetlist.com

Well put...
note the above link is far from all holistic vets, many choose older methods of getting the word out like word of mouth and print media

You have to exercise precautions in handling raw meat of any sort at any time whether your end consumer is human, feline or canine. I do occasionally feed my boys raw and they love it. I buy whole meat and freeze it (it is a treat, not part of the reg diet so B vit. loss isn't an issue.) I get it at a wonderful grocery store here (Hiller's), Whole Foods (organic and local) or from a local vendor at the farmer's market who raises grass fed cattle and processes locally. THAT beef is yummy and the cats are crrrrrrazy about it. (They get stew chunks chopped up.) It's pricey, but I eat it too - cooked of course. And my vet was also leery of raw. But as I said, it is a treat, not a large percent of their diet.

I was saying if her vet was giving her trouble about it to find one that supports it if she wants to continue feeding raw and not hearing the vet giving her a hard time. I never said her vet was a bad vet. I love my vets and they are great but they are against raw as well. If I fed raw and they were giving me a really hard time about it I would find a new vet, not because they are bad vets but because they were giving me a very hard time about what I was feeding.

When I had Mama inside when she was recovering from her prolapse I had to make sure no garbage cans were around or she would go right for them and see if there was anything to eat. When she was in the bathroom alone she tore up the can in there seeing if there was anything edible. None of the 3 we had ever touched garbage cans. Maude was on the streets long enough that I think she was semi-feral and she wouldn't touch the garbage cans. Keep in mind Mama had food but she still went through the trash. Like I said I know all the outside ones have ate bird, squirrel and I know they have caught moles(not sure if they ate any, they left 2 as a 'present' for us on the porch.) I know Mama had been a dumpster diver at one point and they have never been sick from any of it and they are immuno-comprised cats with FeLV so they are a lot more prone to getting sick from raw stuff and trash and bacteria and other nasties.

Like I said as long as you know how to do it RIGHT there is nothing wrong with it. If you have no idea what the hack you are doing either find out how to do it right or stick to kibble or wet food or some other commercial diet. Dogs can live on a vegetarian diet but it would kill a cat so you have to know what you are doing. They also have different requirements for a good diet so feeding a dog raw is different from feeding a cat raw.

Like I said it's the humans that are at risk, not the cats so follow proper food handling practices and make sure no one except animals get into their bowls. As I said I'm assuming your children don't get into the animals bowls(prolly old enough to know better.) I haven't had a problem with Bobby and food bowls since he was 2 so they get over the pick through the bowls and take a bite stage quickly. Cats will pretty much eat whatever they can so they won't get sick from raw meat and with all the testing of food now there is a lesser chance of food borne illnesses than there was in the past. Also, American meat doesn't contain parasites.

Taryn

Would you two like to tell me where you are reading this information? It's not from the CDC, apparently.
Why are pregnant women cautioned to be careful when handling raw meat and to make sure it's fully cooked?
Probably because toxoplasmosis is the third leading cause of foodborne illness in the US. Typically from pork.
Beef and chicken are less effected.

She was talking worms not toxoplasmosis. We(or at least I) was saying there weren't worms in raw meat. I wasn't talking about other parasites. I know toxo, and listeria are alive and well here, there have been plenty of listeria recalls and toxo is about everywhere. There is a reason I didn't eat cold cuts for my entire pregnancy, didn't do soft cheese(not that I have been into soft cheese), refused to change the litter box(for Spaz, even got in a huge fight with my husband over it because he thought I was full of you know what) and tried to avoid handling raw meat at all.

Sorry should have been more specific.

Taryn

Try reading the links I posted. It does mention roundworms and tapeworms - though again pork is the main problem (and lamb).