Vet advising against raw meat diet supplement, fears E. Coli

bahger

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Would anyone care to comment? Our energetic young Ocicats are doing well with a regular diet supplement of raw stew beef, but the vet says E. Coli is a genuine hazard to both cats and humans (including two children) when pet-owners do this.

Can anyone speak from experience regarding the likelihood of E. Coli or other dangerous bacteria in raw meat bought from a high-end supermarket?

If I were a cynic, I'd think the vet was trying to push an alternative, i.e. a type of high-quality kibble they sell from his office. What do you think?
 

kai bengals

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I think your Vet has his head lodged squarely up his rectum.

What does he think wild cats eat? I wonder what he thinks feral cats eat???

Commerical canned foods and kibble are merely for convenient long term storage and ease of use by humans. They aren't safer than human grade grocery store bought raw meats.

I'm so tired of Vets using the old E. Coli lie, if it's not that they claim toxoplasmosis.

Nonsense!

Time to find a new Vet in my opinion.
 

sharky

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I would suggest calling around and finding a like minded vet... Yes you need to take basic precautions but like Kai Bengals said it is a common line from one who has not researched
 

2dogmom

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I have been up one side and down the other on this debate when it comes to dogs ever since the Delta Society banned pets who even get so much as one bone from the butcher from being part of their program. Basically I think it is a very very muddy subject. As far as the literature goes which focuses on dogs (some of which includes feline diets) each and every one that I have seen is flawed in some way. For example, they measure bacteria levels on stool samples of pets fed a raw commercial diet. Come on, commercial raw diets are always ground meat and there is going to be a high bacteria load because of the increase in surface available by grinding.

But if you want to hit your vet with a counterargument, try this:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Health/...1344300&page=1

According to the Institute of Pediatrics, dry pet food is so utterly nasty that little kids got sick not just from trying out a piece of kibble, but even touching a surface that the kibble had touched.
 

strange_wings

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^2006-2008. Yes, it's true that pet food can be contaminated with salmonella. That's why they test and recall for it - they're not worried about the animals getting sick, but people. (silly question, but did anyone else eat pet food as a toddler/young child and survive perfectly fine?
)

I think the case here is simply that your vet is not studied in this area and definitely doesn't feel comfortable overseeing this diet. You can't blame a person for this. As sharky suggested, shop around for a vet who is experienced in this area, you'll need them.


As for meat and e-coli. It is a risk. The USDA has been having serious problems with it over the last few years, so much so that a lot of grocery store meat is likely contaminated with it. You vet isn't wrong about that.
If you want to go all raw, see if you can source a good high quality butcher. You'll be giving your money to a business that big chain supermarkets are running out of business, too.
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by strange_wings

^2006-2008. Yes, it's true that pet food can be contaminated with salmonella. That's why they test and recall for it - they're not worried about the animals getting sick, but people. (silly question, but did anyone else eat pet food as a toddler/young child and survive perfectly fine?
)

I think the case here is simply that your vet is not studied in this area and definitely doesn't feel comfortable overseeing this diet. You can't blame a person for this. As sharky suggested, shop around for a vet who is experienced in this area, you'll need them.


As for meat and e-coli. It is a risk. The USDA has been having serious problems with it over the last few years, so much so that a lot of grocery store meat is likely contaminated with it. You vet isn't wrong about that.
If you want to go all raw, see if you can source a good high quality butcher. You'll be giving your money to a business that big chain supermarkets are running out of business, too.
Ah you always write so well
... I did eat dog food and biscuits as a toddler and am here
 
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bahger

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Originally Posted by strange_wings

As for meat and e-coli. It is a risk. The USDA has been having serious problems with it over the last few years, so much so that a lot of grocery store meat is likely contaminated with it. You vet isn't wrong about that.
If you want to go all raw, see if you can source a good high quality butcher. You'll be giving your money to a business that big chain supermarkets are running out of business, too.
This is discomforting. I cannot justify spending more on the cats' meat diet than on the childrens'! However, both cats and children enjoy high-quality beef from a high-end supermarket. The only difference is that we serve it to the children cooked! Hmmm, unsure what to do now, the arguments here are fairly evenly balanced. I certainly appreciate the expert advice, which I have been getting here ever since our cats arrived.
 

ruthyb

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Originally Posted by sharky

Ah you always write so well
... I did eat dog food and biscuits as a toddler and am here
Me too, lol. I wonder if they cook the meat for large cats in the zoo?
x
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by Ruthyb

Me too, lol. I wonder if they cook the meat for large cats in the zoo?
x
They feed raw with MEGA doses of vitamins and minerals added to make a 'complete" diet
 

strange_wings

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Originally Posted by Bahger

This is discomforting. I cannot justify spending more on the cats' meat diet than on the childrens'! However, both cats and children enjoy high-quality beef from a high-end supermarket. The only difference is that we serve it to the children cooked! Hmmm, unsure what to do now, the arguments here are fairly evenly balanced. I certainly appreciate the expert advice, which I have been getting here ever since our cats arrived.
Well, if you can find a good butcher, simply get all of your meats there. You could have it fresh ground for you or get a grinder for at home. You maybe be able to get more than the standard pork, beef, and chicken this way - so the whole family can benefit.

No need to short the human family members. Plus, don't forget if you freeze meat for cat use that freezing does degrade some vitamins (Bs).

Basically just shop around.
I don't have the butcher option around here because of chain stores and it being a poorer rural area, but if you have one do price them. I really wish I did as I'd feel confidant adding raw into my cats diet then, but I won't do it on low quality grocery or wal-mart meats.
 

taryn

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Bobby had a thing for pet food when he was a toddler. I remember catching him eating cat food and asked to see the bag. I needed to make sure it didn't have beef in it because he was moderately to severely allergic to beef, or any form of dairy because he was severely- very severely to all dairy(carrying an EpiPen Jr with you everywhere is no fun, having to try and explain that your diaper bag can't be within any small person's reach and why but even without the EpiPen I carried Benedryl so either way it had to be out of reach, thankfully never had to use one and hope I never do but he doesn't need an EpiPen now and he outgrew beef but dairy, although his allergy is not as severe as it was, still hangs on), other than that I tried to keep him away from the food but since I knew it didn't have beef or dairy in it I wasn't too worried about him eating it if he got a few pieces before I could get him away from the food. He never got sick from it.

It's mainly for human protection when it comes to e-coli or salmonella, Abby
, my Old English Sheepdog, got a pig's ear every night and all over the packaging it had warning to wash your hands well after handling them or you might get salmonella and that isn't good. Abby was old, blind, and had severe arthritis and was on heavy meds for said arthritis(no other choice, her arthritis was bad, not yet PTS bad but heavily medicated bad) and she never got sick from them, but a human could. Abby died(at 11 1/2 so she was OLD by sheepdog standards) from a burst liver or spleen which could have been caused by the arthritis meds(she had checked out fine at her senior appointment less than 6 months prior and they had taken her off Rimadyl to something less hepatoxic for her liver's sake even though it was perfectly fine.) It also simply could have been she was old. Anyways my old decrepit dog ate stuff that could have been(and prolly was) infected with salmonella and she was fine. Animals don't get sick from this stuff like we do.

However there are exceptions, mine can never be fed raw due to feline leukemia(even raw advocates agree that FeLV+ or FIV+ never be fed raw) due to their compromised immune systems, so they could pick up something that could kill them. I will say my outside ones that also have FeLV do occasionally catch something and eat it and they've never been sick, but they are outside and it's impossible to keep them from occasionally catching something and eating it.

If your cat(s) are healthy then feed them raw if you want to, I'm assuming you know how to do it right to make sure they are getting all the necessary nutrients. Just go to a high quality butcher to get meat from and obviously wash your hands after preparing it and keep your kids out of the cats bowls(which I'm assuming isn't an issue.) In other words, just follow general food safety guidelines for humans and you'll be fine.

Find a new vet, one that has no issues with raw feeding.

BTW- no vet sells high quality kibble out of their office, they sell Science Diet which I wouldn't feed to any cats, it's too expensive for all the crap it contains, it's like Iams. I'm talking about regular Science Diet not Hill's prescription, those are medicine and are made the way they are for a reason. Mine knows I am happy with what I feed and I'm not going to change but they don't really recommend food anyways unless it's prescription.

Taryn
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by Bahger

Would anyone care to comment? Our energetic young Ocicats are doing well with a regular diet supplement of raw stew beef, but the vet says E. Coli is a genuine hazard to both cats and humans (including two children) when pet-owners do this.

Can anyone speak from experience regarding the likelihood of E. Coli or other dangerous bacteria in raw meat bought from a high-end supermarket?

If I were a cynic, I'd think the vet was trying to push an alternative, i.e. a type of high-quality kibble they sell from his office. What do you think?
Your vet does not know what he/she is talking about. With my wildcats, they get nothing but an all raw meat diet. I never had E. Coli and either have my cats. Of course, you should always wash your hands after handling any raw meat, but cats have the ability to eat raw meat without any effects. Wildcats will often eat, then cover their food and come back to eat more at a later time. These cats do not get sick, even after that meat has been sitting around in warm weather. There is a much higher risk of you getting sick, if you do not handle the meat properly. (not washing your hands or counter tops after handling raw meat) However, I don't know how many times, I will prepare my cats food and only rinse my hands under water or just wipe them with a paper towel and then eat something. I have not been sick yet, but I may be one of the lucky ones. Funny thing is, even my vet, who has a degree in zoology as well, gets weird about me feeding my wildcats an all raw meat diet. I tell her they are wildcats, they are meant to eat raw meat. You should see the look I get, when I tell her they are given whole mice and rats for treats
They will even catch their own live prey, that happens to stray into their enclosures. (opossum, mice, moles etc)
 

laceface

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I agree with the find a new vet idea. I feed raw to my dog, and sometimes her meat is stuff I wouldn't eat- but she just loves it more then and she has never gotten sick. I am lucky enough to have a vet that is happy as long as she is given an assortment of things, and the occasional veggie.
 

otto

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Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

I think your Vet has his head lodged squarely up his rectum.

What does he think wild cats eat? I wonder what he thinks feral cats eat???

Commerical canned foods and kibble are merely for convenient long term storage and ease of use by humans. They aren't safer than human grade grocery store bought raw meats.

I'm so tired of Vets using the old E. Coli lie, if it's not that they claim toxoplasmosis.

Nonsense!

Time to find a new Vet in my opinion.
Well they certainly don't eat cows!
Wild cats and feral cats really aren't a good comparison. The "raw meat" they eat are rodents and birds, not meat processed by humans.

Just because a vet is against raw feeding does not mean the vet is not a good vet.

Feeding raw is a risk if proper precautions aren't taken. Many people don't bother with proper hygiene or don't educate themselves. So vets are leery.

I'm no experts but I know a few people who have gotten sick, or their pets have gotten sick, from raw feeding, because they didn't do it right.
 

kai bengals

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Originally Posted by otto

Well they certainly don't eat cows!
Wild cats and feral cats really aren't a good comparison. The "raw meat" they eat are rodents and birds, not meat processed by humans.
Sorry, but wild cats do eat cows, as I was refering to the big cats. The digestive system is virtually the same as their smaller feline cousins. In addition, the meat isn't processed if you get it direct from a butcher or a hunter.
Feral cats eat what they can find, which includes dumpster diving, so just imagine how bacteria ridden some of the things they eat are, and still they do fine.
I'm sure meat processed by humans would be a big improvement for those cats.
 

aly317

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Until coming on this board, I never even heard of feeding them raw meat. But I have a question : tons of parasites can be found in raw meat. They can literally destroy their hosts, and if your pet intakes the parasite, there's even a chance of it passing to you. I don't see why anyone would take the risk? It just seems like a fine line to walk on. What are the cold hard factual backings for it? Not trying to offend, I just really want to know - does it really improve their quality and length of life? With absolute positive statistics backing it up? We've had plenty of 19-21 year old cats who live fine and happy and healthy lives on regular canned and dry food. I just wouldn't take the risk.

What raw meat do you feed them? I sure hope not fish, as parasites are pretty common in fish if not frozen or cooked first.
 

otto

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Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

Sorry, but wild cats do eat cows, as I was refering to the big cats. The digestive system is virtually the same as their smaller feline cousins. In addition, the meat isn't processed if you get it direct from a butcher or a hunter.
Feral cats eat what they can find, which includes dumpster diving, so just imagine how bacteria ridden some of the things they eat are, and still they do fine.
I'm sure meat processed by humans would be a big improvement for those cats.
Thanks for your clarification. You didn't say big cats though, you said wild cats.


However, I still disagree with the comparison. They may be built similar on the inside, but the fact remains that cats are cats and lions are lions. A feral cat is not going to take down a cow.
She's going to hunt a mouse.

I know that cats have short digestive tracts and bacteria is not necessarily a problem for them, though as I said before, I have seen cats and dogs become very very sick from improper raw feeding.

And I would imagine it would depend on what their systems are used to. I have a feeling if my Tolly, for instance, was forced to dumpster dive to survive, he would become very sick indeed.

I am not against raw diets, if it's done right. (often it is not) It was the vet bashing that rubbed me the wrong way. Just because a vet is not gung-ho about raw feeding does not make him/her a bad vet and I felt that was very poor advice.

Better to suggest to the OP that she have a long discussion with her vet about why she wants to supplement with raw, why the vet advises against it, and have an exchange of ideas and knowledge, so everyone wins.
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by Aly317

Until coming on this board, I never even heard of feeding them raw meat. But I have a question : tons of parasites can be found in raw meat. They can literally destroy their hosts, and if your pet intakes the parasite, there's even a chance of it passing to you. I don't see why anyone would take the risk? It just seems like a fine line to walk on. What are the cold hard factual backings for it? Not trying to offend, I just really want to know - does it really improve their quality and length of life? With absolute positive statistics backing it up? We've had plenty of 19-21 year old cats who live fine and happy and healthy lives on regular canned and dry food. I just wouldn't take the risk.

What raw meat do you feed them? I sure hope not fish, as parasites are pretty common in fish if not frozen or cooked first.
Maybe we can make this a different thread.... but I will say it likely will open a can of worms...

cats have much shorter GI tracts and much shorter digestion times than humans thus the bacteria normally do not have that much time to replicate
 

strange_wings

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^The problem arises when grocery stores have had that meat for a while and the bacteria content is already high.


Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

Feral cats eat what they can find, which includes dumpster diving, so just imagine how bacteria ridden some of the things they eat are, and still they do fine.
I'm not sure how many strays you've taken in that had to live off of garbage, but one thing is usually common among them. Digestive issues. I have one taken in as a stray that doesn't have food issues or didn't come to me with funky stools and gas. So they do not do fine, they just manage to survive because that's all they can do.

Oh, and a large part of a feral cats diet (in warm months) is insects.
 

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Commercially raised American meat does not have parasites--can you imagine the recalls?!? They do recalls over eColi and salmonella, which are almost unavoidable under the circumstances, if there were parasites I can't imagine the uproar. Wild game does sometimes have parasites, but that's what wildcats and feral cats eat and they do OK. I don't think it's a huge concern for the cats--it's what they were meant to eat--but the humans do have to be more careful. I'm not sure about fish. . .if I recall correctly there's something about raw salmon. I don't feed raw on a regular basis, but I did look into it for my dogs so I have a basic understanding.
 
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