My cat is in early stages of CRF

Hi,

Sad, but not unexpected news from the vet today. My cat, Jasmine, is almost 15 and is hyperthyroid. Her BUN level is 38 and creatinine is 3. Is this really high or borderline? It is suggested that I start her on fluids and also a prescription diet.

How long do cats generally live once this treatment is started? I'm going to start reading up on this since I know there is alot posted both here and elsewhere.

I know the ranges of the BUN and creatinine levels, but I don't know where the numbers go as CRF progresses.

Is it easy to administer the sub-Q fluids at home? At first thought I'm sort of leery that I'd be able to do it right.

Thanks for any advice.

Keith

Sub-q fluids are easy. You may be leery to begin with, I was absolutely terrified, but it became a regular daily routine and it became much easier within a couple weeks. My Boo even got so comfortable that he didn't need a cat muzzle anymore. Just make sure when it comes down to giving Sub-q's that your vet shows your how to appropriately do it. There is also sites showing you how to do it (From the link below at Tanya's CRF site) if you start getting weirded out at home. I think everyone goes through the leery/freaked out part of the sub-q's, but everyone here told me I could do it and I totally did.

The experience I've personally had with Boo, his BUN numbers went from 36 and when he "Crashed" (when it was "discovered" he had CRF) it was off the scale at 130 and the machine couldn't read higher than that. We got it down to 77, it bounced up and down for a bit but did not have hyperthyroid, and in his final decline, the new vet had to dilute his blood or something to get a proper reading and it was 199-200 and some.
I don't know much about Creatinine.
A BUN level of 38 is "elevated' I believe but every vet is different and considers the numbers differently I believe.

A prescription diet is a good idea if your cat will eat one. I had my Boo on Hi Tor Neo (canned food) which had low phosphorus and low protein. I learned a lot of helpful things from Tanya's CRF Site: http://www.felinecrf.org/

Your vet can probably best guide you towards a good food otherwise.

I have read of cats living upwards of 10 years with CRF.

Do not fret but read your info and do research and learn all you can. Good luck with your baby and other posters will be able to give lots more info, I've only had experience with my one cat and CRF.

Originally Posted by three4rd

Hi,

Sad, but not unexpected news from the vet today. My cat, Jasmine, is almost 15 and is hyperthyroid. Her BUN level is 38 and creatinine is 3. Is this really high or borderline? It is suggested that I start her on fluids and also a prescription diet.

How long do cats generally live once this treatment is started? I'm going to start reading up on this since I know there is alot posted both here and elsewhere.

I know the ranges of the BUN and creatinine levels, but I don't know where the numbers go as CRF progresses.

Is it easy to administer the sub-Q fluids at home? At first thought I'm sort of leery that I'd be able to do it right.

Thanks for any advice.

Keith

Click to expand...

Bun of 38 with most test s is stage 2 crf which is insufficiency
creatine of 3 can be 2 or 3 depending on the test used

Sub qs are not hard but it depends on the cat....

Diet for both issues your dealing with is of great importance

Hi,

I really appreciate the replies. The vet would like to do an initial sub-Q on Monday and uses the dry Prescription Diet food for kidney issues. My cat has only ever eaten dry food. Like any food change, I'll mix it in gradually.

I am encouraged by reading some of the stories here about how people have managed (not only by doing the fluids themselves) but also that their pets can continue to live on for some time yet with this condition.

I did come across Tanya's site...this seems to be the gold standard internet source when it comes to info on CRF! I will indeed read and learn as much as I can and study sub-Q procedures. I guess I'm intimidated largely by the thought that I'll be hurting my cat during the process. The vet was very nice and said that I could surely bring her in weekly to have it done. So, one day at a time I suppose.....

Thanks again so much. I'll undoubtedly be posting back early part of next week. I've never had a cat that lived this long before and so this is all new to me. I've been treating Jasmine for hyperthyroid with methimazole (syringes) for a year now. They want to keep tabs on the T4 level as well, probably monthly.

Regards,
Keith

I have a 14 year old who's also in early CRF, but she's been there for a couple of years. Off the top of my head (& I'm at work) I don't have her latest numbers, but the fluids question is one my husband & I have discussed. Cats can live for several years on sub-q fluids, but DH and I have already decided that we're going to consider quality of life vs. the stress of the injections and have decided that we're most likely not going to do fluids. It's a personal decision that you will have to make based on your cat's health and all that. There's a CRF Yahoo group that's amazing. When I get home, I'll post the link.

Hi,

I just got your reply. Thanks. The one thing I'm not finding on the net is info regarding how many actual stages are there - if indeed the condition can even be classified in such a manner. I have no doubt that every cat responds differently.

How does one determine if your cat has "crashed" during the various stages of CRF? I've seen this referred to several times already, along with talk about getting the cat 'over the hump' following the crash - followed by, I believe, a greater period of stabilization??

Thanks again,
Keith

Hi,

Interesting and more food for thought....I did not even consider witholding the start of fluids. My vet seems to be conveying to me that this is simply the thing to do to at least manage the condition. I didn't realize that the cats can continue on for so long - as you describe - without the additional fluids. Without fluid therapy, isn't there a much more rapid decline in kidney function, i.e. BUN and creatinine levels continue to get worse faster? I'm new at all this but the feel I'm getting from my vet is that two things should be started soon - sub-Q and a prescription diet food.

Thanks,
Keith

My Sven had a BUN of 57 at his last check-up (but creatinin with normal levels) , and has not started on sub-q's yet as he doesn't appear to be dehydrated when you do the skin testing (pull up on his skin and if it doesn't tent, then he's not dehydrated). We simply put him on K/D dry food and that's that (for now). Like StephanieTX, we probably won't do the Sub-Q's on him, because we know our cat, and just don't think he will want them.* We had another cat we did Sub-q's on, and he purred while he was getting them! Really, it kind of depends on your cat and how much she enjoys life, etc, as to how much you want to put them through, although I'm not sure that giving them Sub-q's is actually painful...I don't think it is.

* we also give him medication for arthritis and constipation via mouth twice a day through a syringe, and now he kind of moans each time we pick him up to give it to him, that's why I don't think he would want anything further, poor guy

Thanks,

Maybe the recommendation to use sub-Q's is partly due to the fact that my cat is continuing to lose weight regularly over the past few months.

After reading some of these posts, now I am beginning to have second thoughts about starting fluids....not sure what is best.

if your Vet recommends it, then I would at least get the first one...can't hurt. Our Vet did not recommend it for our Sven...just said to keep it on the back burner for when he started showing signs of dehydration. My hubby was a nurse, so he knows the signs. BTW, our Sven is skin and bones, that was one of the signs of his kidney failure. He eats only dry too, and it's like pulling teeth to get him to eat anything, let alone the k/d. We cheat alot and feed him Temptations, not good, I know, but at least he sometimes will eat a handfull or so, and as I said, for us, it's quality vs quantity.

There are 4 stages of CRF ... stage 4 is where it is really not easy to manage...

Originally Posted by stephanietx

I have a 14 year old who's also in early CRF, but she's been there for a couple of years. Off the top of my head (& I'm at work) I don't have her latest numbers, but the fluids question is one my husband & I have discussed. Cats can live for several years on sub-q fluids, but DH and I have already decided that we're going to consider quality of life vs. the stress of the injections and have decided that we're most likely not going to do fluids. It's a personal decision that you will have to make based on your cat's health and all that. There's a CRF Yahoo group that's amazing. When I get home, I'll post the link.

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My Rb Kandie was dealt with this way and through diet and some basic supplements she made it around 4.5 yrs ( she was near 15 at a stage 2 diagnosis

Or..the same question for anyone else here....what do you do? My cat certainly has not been eating as much for some time now. The hyperthyroid condition is really a two-edged sword. Too little medication and the body metabolism speeds up to the point where, even if they eat alot (for several years my cat really seemed overly hungry every day - this was undoubtedly already a sign of hyperthyroidism) the body just eats up the calories faster than they can ingest them. And, too much meds and it just dulls the appetite. Either way, it seems like weight loss is inevitable.

Does anyone maybe, from time to time, throw in some moist food, etc. just to get some additional food into the cat??

Here's the link for the Feline CRF Support group: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/F...guid=353539644

We have managed Callie's condition for the past 4 years with diet. It's so important to keep them drinking, so we have water bowls and coffee mugs throughout the house. We have a water fountain as well, but we're not currently using it. She does receive Cosequin for arthritis and pumpkin for constipation/hard stools. Constipation is extremely common for CRF kitties and there are several good ways of treating it.

For any kitty, wet food is far better for them than dry. Dry food actually depletes the body of water, which contributes to constipation and a host of other issues, CRF included. Callie is a dry food junkie, but she gets 2 small servings of wet food daily. My 5 yo cat, Hannah, gets 2 wet servings a day, plus 1/8 C dry food (grain-free) daily. My newest kitty, Tumble is only 15 wks old, but he gets 4 wet food servings a day and access to dry whenever he wants it. As he gets older, we'll gradually wean him off of the dry and go straight wet with a little bit of dry.

Crashing, as I can understand it in my head, was, for example, when Boo lost weight suddenly, started drinking loads of water and peeing loads of water and just generally did not act himself. He was literal skin and bones, dropping from 12 pounds down to 7, and that is when we found out he had CRF and had "crashed" because his numbers were off the charts. We brought him back from that successfully though. I don't know how long he was in crash mode, because I was not the observant Momma I should've been. Sub-q's, IMO are very important as they help the body flush out toxins that the kidneys just aren't doing as well and they really are a must have in the later stages of CRF. That's just my two cents. Dehydration is a very real possibility with CRF and my Boo was severely dehydrated when he crashed. I learned about skin "turgor" (Pulling up on the skin at the back of the neck, like on the back of your hand) And if it stays standing up it indicates severe dehydration.

Boo's skin stuck up like a potato chip. It was so horrible. But it got better with Sub-q's.

I did my best to give Boo only the wet food as it had more moisture in it, and I didn't want him getting constipated, but he also got small helpings of Royal Canin Indoor Mature 27 and Iams Renal Formula (That was recalled a short time ago and I have tossed it in the garbage)

Good luck

IF you can get her to eat wet food, I agree with everyone else, that's the way to go. Sven will occasionally just lick the gravy off of wet food, but even that is rare. He won't even drink up tuna juice, although before his kidney disease, he used to do that. We had bought can after can of every brand and type (pate, shredded, chunks) and flavor of canned food, and tried to tempt Sven, to no avail. At one time, just to try to get some meat on his bones, I went back to dry Meow Mix, which was the only food he had ever eaten when we adopted him at 8 years old. He ate a little of that for a few days and that was that. We tried Wellness Core (before he was diagnose, but he was already losing weight, and that was a no go (probably a blessing in disquise).

Now he will occationally eat his k/d if I put it on the floor in front of him like it's a treat, but usually not. What I can usually get him to eat are Temptations treats (which say they are 100% nutritionally complete, and the Naturals have added vitamins and minerals), so right now every hour or so I give him a handfull of those, and he will usually eat them, as long as I sit right there with him and praise him and if he walks away, I pick them up and put them in front of him again. I try to trick up because I've put his k/d into a Temptations pouce and switch the handfuls between the actual Temptations and k/d, and sometimes mix the 2 together. Sometimes he'll eat the k/d, sometimes he won't. I guess he's on to me !

I think StephanieTX is doing something right, 'cause her Callie is in unbelieve shape for a CRf cat . When I saw pictures of her I could not believe she was CRF, she's not thin at all (at least not in the pictures). Heer's the link where she describes when and what she feeds her:

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...=219899&page=2

Just scroll thru to find her posts within this thread that is actually how to help one of my others cats LOSE weight!!

Originally Posted by three4rd

Or..the same question for anyone else here....what do you do? My cat certainly has not been eating as much for some time now. The hyperthyroid condition is really a two-edged sword. Too little medication and the body metabolism speeds up to the point where, even if they eat alot (for several years my cat really seemed overly hungry every day - this was undoubtedly already a sign of hyperthyroidism) the body just eats up the calories faster than they can ingest them. And, too much meds and it just dulls the appetite. Either way, it seems like weight loss is inevitable.

Does anyone maybe, from time to time, throw in some moist food, etc. just to get some additional food into the cat??

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My cats are on a wet only diet. I have two CRFers, Cleo and Maggie. Lola has chronic UTIs and crystals in her urine.

All three girls eat Royal Canin Low Protein, and Hills k/d canned foods. I have a bag of Hills k/d dry, which is given as treats (approx. 1 tablespoon each) a couple of times a week.....believe me...the bag lasts forever!

Maggie's CRF is totally diet controlled. Cleo gets subQ fluids 2 or 3 times a week. She also gets Calcitriol, 24ng, every other day, to prevent secondary hyperparathyroidism.

If you'd like, I'd be happy to send you a can of each of the kidney foods to try. Just PM your address, and I will get them out to you.

I'd like to give you a bit of hope, even with the CRF diagnosis.

Cleo was diagnosed with CRF when my vet did pre-op blood work for her spay surgery. She was 6 months old. Cleo celebrated her 10th birthday on May 27. Maggie was diagnosed with early stage renal insufficiency when she was about 4 years old. Maggie turned 9 years old on May 2. Cleo started subQ's whe she was about 3 1/2, so she's been getting them for almost 7 years now.

Wow...this is such a great place with such caring cat owners! Thanks so much to everyone for the great information. I take Jasmine to the vet tomorrow night for her very first Sub-Q, and I have quite a laundry list of questions - one of which will certainly be the issue of dry vs. wet food. I also want to ask about the possibility of additional supplements. The food that was recommended is the Prescription Diet k/d (Hill's, I presume). Jasmine has only ever eaten dry food and so I'm just not sure about switching over to wet. I don't know how much this would upset her system - would probably be better for her due to the CRF.

Best,
Keith