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I hadn't been in favor of a pre-emptive war against Iran

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
But we have to stand up for what's right. At least they didn't call cats "unclean"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...inst-pets.html

Iran issues fatwa against pets

Iranian authorities have banned all advertisements for pets, pet food and other pet products....

....In June, Ayatollah Shirazi declared dogs unclean, saying that dog owners were “blindly imitating the West†and that their devotion to the animals would result in “evil outcomesâ€. “Many people in the West love their dogs more than their wives and children,†he said
post #2 of 25
Thread Starter 
Oh wait. I may become a Muslim.

Muhammad supposedly hated dogs, but loved cats.

According to one Islamic myth, the muezzin also inspired the name of the Prophet's cat, Muezza. In the story, the Prophet was seated writing at a desk when he heard the call to prayer. When he rose to respond, he realized that his cat was asleep on his sleeve, and rather than disturb the cat, he cut his sleeve off so that he could rise to face Mecca.
post #3 of 25
Totalitarian governments have a long history of viewing pets as an evil waste of resources. Pets were illegal in China for quite a while, weren't they? And I suppose it IS true that they absorb some resources.

To some extent, however, the pet food industry uses foods that are unfit for human consumption, and they were originally conceived to use up animal slaughter byproducts.

I guess a case could be made.

Does anyone know how Jews feel about cats? I know they're not mentioned in the Bible, but by all the definitions in Leviticus, they would have to be considered unclean animals, so touching a live cat would make a strict Jew unclean until sunset, right?
post #4 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
Totalitarian governments have a long history of viewing pets as an evil waste of resources. Pets were illegal in China for quite a while, weren't they? And I suppose it IS true that they absorb some resources.

To some extent, however, the pet food industry uses foods that are unfit for human consumption, and they were originally conceived to use up animal slaughter byproducts.

I guess a case could be made.

Does anyone know how Jews feel about cats? I know they're not mentioned in the Bible, but by all the definitions in Leviticus, they would have to be considered unclean animals, so touching a live cat would make a strict Jew unclean until sunset, right?
I don't know about Jews but I know Christians didn't like them in the Middle Ages. Result:Bubonic Plague


Read more at Suite101: Cats and the Black Plague: Persecution of Felines Increased the Death Toll for Humans http://cats.suite101.com/article.cfm...#ixzz0xqPCKsti

Pope Gregory IX told people that domestic cats were diabolical in 1232, fueling anti-cat sentiment, and this prejudice worsened over the years. Cats were not subservient and tended to be noisy at night, which caused them to be viewed with suspicion. Many superstitious people began to associate them with the devil.

Large numbers of cats and their owners were executed after being accused of witchcraft in the years leading up to the Black Plague, and for hundreds of years thereafter. Totals vary widely from one historian to the next for both “witches” and cats killed. However, it is safe to say that a large proportion of Europe’s domestic cats were slain, either on suspicion of being Satan’s familiars or as part of the mass animal killings that people undertook in a desperate attempt to control the Plague later on. Dogs were also slain in these mass killings, which removed another of the rat’s natural predators.


When I googled JEWS CATS this is what I got

"Judaism places great stress on proper treatment of animals. Unnecessary cruelty to animals is strictly forbidden, and in many cases, animals are accorded the same sensitivity as human beings. This concern for the welfare of animals is unusual in Western civilization"

"Under Jewish law, animals have some of the same rights as humans do. Animals rest on Shabbat, as humans do (Ex. 20:10). We are forbidden to muzzle an ox to prevent it from eating while it is working in the field "

"Jewish law does not prohibit keeping pets, and indeed many observant Jews have dogs, cats or other household pets, though Jewish law does raise some complications for pet owners.

As with all animals, we are required to feed our pets before ourselves, and make arrangements for feeding our pets before we obtain them. Also, like all animals, household pets are entitled to Sabbath rest, thus you cannot have your dog retrieve the paper for you on Shabbat, etc."


Oh, and this.




post #5 of 25
I think cats (and dogs) would be a problem for only orthodox (and perhaps only VERY orthodox) Jews. I've often wondered about the lack of mention of them in the Bible, but I'd be hard pressed to think of a positive mention of dogs in the Bible. It might be that their experiences in Egypt prejudiced them against cats, but who knows? No one wrote about it that I know of.

There ARE historians that say that the Little African Wildcat walking into Egyptian granaries is what made city life possible and pushed man's civilization along. And it's certainly true that the Catholic Church's prejudice against cats in the middle ages (associating them with evil and witches) led to enough of a reduction in cats to enable the Bubonic Plague to spread further and faster than it would have otherwise.
post #6 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
Ind it's certainly true that the Catholic Church's prejudice against cats in the middle ages (associating them with evil and witches) led to enough of a reduction in cats to enable the Bubonic Plague to spread further and faster than it would have otherwise.
I realize with greater numbers comes a greater chance of poor judgment and all, but when you think about it, it's amazing how much egregious and/or just plain senseless crap has been done in the name of the Church. THE Church, that has rooted itself in abstract moral ideology moreso than any other purpose-bound group in history.

It's pretty weird, when you think about it. And by weird, I mean ironic. And by ironic, I mean sad.
post #7 of 25
Well, the Catholic Church certainly was a (maybe "the") major force in Europe before the Renaissance and Reformations, but probably no more than the Muslim leaders in some countries (and, unfortunately, in increasingly more countries) in the world, and you could make an argument that Communism became the religion in Russia for at least 50 years (and probably killed more people than the Catholics or Muslims dreamed of).
post #8 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
you could make an argument that Communism became the religion in Russia for at least 50 years.

Sorry no. They don't have a Skygod. Not a religion.
post #9 of 25
Thread Starter 
Thank You. You're welcome.
post #10 of 25
Thread Starter 
Spinning out of control
post #11 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_PH View Post
Sorry no. They don't have a Skygod. Not a religion.
OK, let's call it a faith (in the state) or a belief system. I believe to most people the difference would be virtually indistinguishable.
post #12 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_PH View Post
But we have to stand up for what's right. At least they didn't call cats "unclean"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...inst-pets.html

Iran issues fatwa against pets

Iranian authorities have banned all advertisements for pets, pet food and other pet products....

....In June, Ayatollah Shirazi declared dogs unclean, saying that dog owners were “blindly imitating the West†and that their devotion to the animals would result in “evil outcomesâ€. “Many people in the West love their dogs more than their wives and children,†he said
As an Iranian-American maybe I can help you understand this. Iran is not America, it is not even close to what America is. Does this make Iran an evil state? Not really. They don't like us one bit, that's for sure. I'll draw a parallel for you.

Americans have a similar backlash to Iranians. When people are told we should have socialized medicine because it works so well in France, what is the response to that... hmm? This isn't any different then Iran not wanting to "imitate the west." We as Americans do not want to do things like the French or Europeans. We want to do things like Americans do.

With that said, I feel banning dogs and pets is ridiculous. I feel this way because I am American. As all Americans are I was taught that I have the ability to choose what I want all the time. That is the American way... not all countries are the same.
post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
OK, let's call it a faith (in the state) or a belief system. I believe to most people the difference would be virtually indistinguishable.
Capitalism. Same Same.
post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_PH View Post
Capitalism. Same Same.
But it doesn't depend on some philosophy that goes absolutely contrary to human nature.

"Capitalism is the worst economic system. Except for all the rest of the systems."
post #15 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
But it doesn't depend on some philosophy that goes absolutely contrary to human nature.
"
Contrary to human nature? What humans have you been hanging around? If early humans disn't share and work collectively we'd still be living in caves.
post #16 of 25
Communism requires that you believe that the whole will voluntarily do just as much work for the whole as they did when they worked for their own self interests.

Can you name a communist state that doesn't require the citizens to essentially accept the state as the ultimate control in their lives, taking on faith that that acceptence will lead to happiness for all? In fact, the tenets of communism sound an awful lot like an idealized version of Christianity (or other religions). Again, as I said, the ideals of communism sound great; they just don't work out, because they deny the basic nature of man.

And if you think the first human societies were based on some ideal of communism, rather than self-interest, you really don't understand people at all.
post #17 of 25
In all fairness, I think Marx envisioned the state existing only to initially spoon feed the "collectivism" concept to people, but that it would naturally whither away once people "got it" and could emulate it on their own.

I hate when Marxism/Communism gets a bad rap. It's a sound system. It's people that inevitably !@#$% it up.
post #18 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keycube View Post
I hate when Marxism/Communism gets a bad rap. It's a sound system. It's people that inevitably !@#$% it up.


*DING* *DING* *DING* Correct answer.

And places like Finland and Sweden are doing a heck of a good job with Socialism.
post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keycube View Post
In all fairness, I think Marx envisioned the state existing only to initially spoon feed the "collectivism" concept to people, but that it would naturally whither away once people "got it" and could emulate it on their own.

I hate when Marxism/Communism gets a bad rap. It's a sound system. It's people that inevitably !@#$% it up.
Well, it hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried, so I would say that while it sounds great in the abstract, it does, as I said, go completely against human nature.

It has been said that one definition of insanity is trying the same experiment time after time, hoping for a different outcome. Dave would apply that to religion. I would apply it to communism.
post #20 of 25
Thread Starter 
Surrender Mike. We've got you surrounded. A billion plus Chi-coms and millions of Socialist Europeans and Eliteist Libs.

Grab your kitties and run.
post #21 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
Well, it hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried, so I would say that while it sounds great in the abstract, it does, as I said, go completely against human nature.

It has been said that one definition of insanity is trying the same experiment time after time, hoping for a different outcome. Dave would apply that to religion. I would apply it to communism.
I think human nature is pretty much impossible to define, because it isn't only based on biological factors, society influences it as well- you can't say human nature now is the same as before the industrial revolution for instance..
So, I just think human nature as we know it- driven by self interest, only exists in our capitalist society, if we look at other societies then it becomes different as we can see from anthropological studies of African tribes that are completely altruistic.
I dunno, IMO it's pointless to make further attempts to see if communism works but I'm with Dave, I like Sweden and Finland's governments.

Oh and to add to the original topic, I know plenty of Muslims who hate pets and see them as useless. Jake's biological mom's owner was Muslim and he ended up taking her to the shelter to get rid of her because she gave birth too many times...Makes me sick!
And the thing is, these people have been taught that way because they've lived in countries like Iran which put such negative connotations to pet ownership...I guess if you grow up like this you can't change how you see animals. So, I agree, these laws are terrible
post #22 of 25
I'm not sure I'd blame that woman's opinion on her religion, because I don't think that is universal at all among Muslims. We have had some Muslim girls volunteering at the shelter, and they seemed to love the animals just like the rest of us.

On the other hand, human nature has been studied enough to know what motivates people. Communism hasn't worked because it goes against the natural motivators. And it hasn't helped that most communist countries have also gone to great lengths to try to wipe out religion.

I like the Swedish and Finnish models, too. It just doesn't work here, for many reasons, not the least of which is a significant culture of indolence and dependence. Not to mention the size of the country.

But anyone who says the U.S. is not socialist really doesn't understand socialism; our socialist programs (Social Security and Medicare chief among them) are the largest single expense of our government, I believe.
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_PH View Post
Surrender Mike. We've got you surrounded. A billion plus Chi-coms and millions of Socialist Europeans and Eliteist Libs.

Grab your kitties and run.
Sorry, no. The Chinese and Soviets have recognized that their systems were unsound and unsustainable. Without the impetus of private property, the economic system just does not run.

Socialism is not communism.
post #24 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
I'm not sure I'd blame that woman's opinion on her religion, because I don't think that is universal at all among Muslims. We have had some Muslim girls volunteering at the shelter, and they seemed to love the animals just like the rest of us.
you're right, I should say it was because she was from afghanistan rather than saying that it's because she's muslim. Although a lot of muslim countries have similar laws. Even turkish people I know consider pets kind of like a nuisance, they may not dislike them but they wouldn't put their life on the line for a pet like most of us would (I know many members have been broke and bought pet food before their own food)
I dunno, maybe it also has to do with the fact that the countries are poor and they don't have enough resources for people, let alone animals, so they learn to be kind of tough and accept the fact that somebody has to suffer. Come to think of it if it came to a life and death situation a lot of people would turn cannibalistic, so it's not all that surprising that they wouldn't care about keeping pets.

As for American Muslims this probably doesn't hold true at all.
post #25 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
But anyone who says the U.S. is not socialist really doesn't understand socialism; our socialist programs (Social Security and Medicare chief among them) are the largest single expense of our government, I believe.
Sshh. Don't say that too loud around here you might get shot. Actually more likely to be punched or knifed. It is cheaper after all.

Right now we seem to be having an identity crisis on what kind of country we are. We have socialist programs like the ones you listed. We preach all people are equal but we discriminate if it is politically correct at the time. Maybe I'm just too young to realize that this country always has an identity crisis...?
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