Church plans Quran-burning event - Page 2

This has been getting Worldwide attention, and in a bad way. I just saw it on the Brazilian News, announced as one of the breaking news, the following: "Pastor confirms he will not give up on the intention of burning the Koran in America". This does not sound good at all...

He has received pleas and warnings from Petraus, the White House, The Vatican, Iran, European Union and UN.

IMHO this is where freedom of speech should have its line drawn. IMO this is not only ugly, but downright dangerous.

No it wasn't, but did occur, which is why I stand by my statement that limited statistics are relatively worthless to downright misleading.

All true. But you notice that there just aren't all that many politicians wanting to slam this church as a campaign issue.

And should Salman Rushdie not have written his books? Should he be killed for them?

The very essence of the freedom of speech is the freedom to distasteful speech. Do you remember Tennessee's law that made it a misdemeanor, punishable by a $5 fine, for punching a flag burner?

Since when can radical Muslims in another country dictate what we can say or do in this country? Would it be right for Americans to attack a mosque here every time some cleric in Iran calls for the destruction of the U.S?

Freedom of speech is something apparently even our leaders seem to be having a problem recognizing.

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
-H. L. Mencken

What??? Where did you get this from? That is some odd twisting of what I was saying here.
I am talking about the burning of the Koran, making that the "National Burn the Koran Day", which is what this "Pastor" intends to do. The Koran applies to a population in between one and two BILLION people around the World. Do these people matter to you at all, or you think that they are all radicals?
We are talking about common Sense here, NOT about radicals. If there is one radical on this story, IMHO it is this Pastor.

How about ever since Newt Gingrich expressed the opinion that the US should not allow any more religious freedom than Saudi Arabia?

Oh, I agree he's a fruitcake. "National Burn the Koran Day?" His church has 50 members. All this is being stirred up by all the reporters he's calling, I'd guess.

The Bible applies to as many people as the Koran, and I wouldn't oppose burning it, either, if someone wanted to do that publicly. Which people do, on a regular basis, in the Muslim countries. And in the U.S., for that matter.

This man is an American. He has the right to burn whatever books he owns. I just laughed when churches were burning the Harry Potter books. This guy has no more influence in the world than what people give him. And again, what Muslims here or anywhere else think about it is up to them, but they don't control our rights here.

What part of "freedom of speech" are you not getting here?

And just to be clear, Newt Gingrich is a fruitcake, too. But he has a good point. Saudis take advantage of our laws while being unwilling to grant the same freedoms to Christians in Saudi Arabia. I don't think Newt wants less freedom here. He seems to be saying there should be more freedom in Muslim countries.

And while I haven't heard Newt speak on this particular subject (I googled to know what little I do about his statements), I suspect Newt would also say that the Muslim Cultural Center is completely legal, and the federal government would have no business interfering with it. Nor should the Saudi government have anything to do with prohibiting Christian churches, in an ideal world.

Ah....

See, I was quoting statistics for the most recent year. I believe you were just picking one incident since 2001. Very different proposition.

And, because the most recent year didn't include a religious violence fatality, it doesn't count?

Reading the news of the explosion of anti-Islamic violence just since this story began, what possible use are 2008 statistics? Why not the last 10 years? Why not the last 100? Just this story alone has changed all the numbers from one month to the next. Statistics 2 years behind the game are useless, and using them to cloak prior year's statistics is misleading.

Not really addressing anyone in particular, just needing to vent...

I think freedom is great. I'm all for it. I'd like to think most of us are all for it. Freedom of speech? Again, awesome. Freedom, freedom, freedom. Let it ring.

But where I think freedom works best, is as an endless supply of rope, by which people are allowed to hang themselves with their actions. Happens every day, by people "in high regard". This pastor is doing it. Worst part is, he's got a mindless congregation and whomever else is participating/supporting in this event, waiting with him on the gallows.

I'll say it again, what these sorts don't seem to get, is the irony in that they've proven that the terrorists have won. They are now dictating standards of behavior on American soil that at one time, one would have found reprehensible. I would have thought the nice thing about "turning the other cheek" (Matthew 5:39, if I remember coorectly. Yeah, okay, I googled it) is that it allowed you to refocus and spin a negative into a positive, and show the antagonist that their efforts are bearing them no reward.

But playing the role of provocateur, in a paint-an-entire-religion-with-the-same-brush act such as this? Well, congratulations, you've every right to do so. At the same time, every American should by downright p*ssed that they're going to be thrown under the bus as intolerant radical buffoons by everyone that's privy to this event, in a global sense. Great lesson for the kids, too.

If there's some sort of backlash against this guy or his church in the name of Islam, I suppose he'll be vindicated, won't he. "See, just as we all knew! The evildoers will never stop until they have conquered all of America!"

Those of you - including many politicians - that want to stand behind your political ideal, that's great. Take your rights out of your little box, display them proudly, and abuse the hell out of them. That's what we do best, isn't it.

This whole episode absolutely makes me vomit. I've never been so embarassed to be American.

The good news is that Gainesville is a college town, fairly liberal, and has a fair number of Muslim residents and students. In addition, I have heard there are already many counter-protests planned or operating.

If I lived there, I would be down there with a sign. I can't decide for sure what it would be. I have two nominees:

"Real Christians don't hate."

"Other sheep have I that are not of this flock. --Jesus, John 10:16"

What would you put on yours?

Or do you think it would be better just to stay away and ignore it?

There was a great discussion of this this morning on the Dianne Rehm show.

Here's the page. I believe you can download it or listen to it online. Ms. Rehm, by the way, is of Turkish and Egyptian descent, so she brings a very heart-felt meaning to the discussion.

Religious Intolerance, Diane Rehm show

A very good quote.

If it was always clear what was right, and if we were always pleased with what other did, and if they always did right, there would be no need for the Bill of Rights.

Really? You're embarrassed because a crackpot with a soapbox knows how to work the system and exercise his rights in America? As someone else said, our rights are only proven when they're put to the test.

I'm going to be very surprised, by the way, if his event actually comes off, and even more surprised if any significant number of his "members" are brave enough to show up to it.

ReallY? And just why is that? I am not going to be surprised at all... I will be surprised to see other "Churches" not joining in, quite (and sadly) frankly...

Yes, really. Largely because there are a number of political figures who refuse to denounce said action, even on pragmatic grounds. One would be appalling. A faction, well...that's just not something to be proud of, in my opinion.

Here in Portland, OR, there is a plan (although, with the current news, I don't know if it will go on), to hold an interfaith rally at the first Mosque to have been built in SW Portland. If it still happens, I will be there, respectfully with my head covered and dressed appropriately. I am a Christian, un-affiliated, internet ordained minister, and what this man has threatened to do is, as someone in the most recent NYT article comments, not as much free speech, but a hate crime.

But.....

It has been called off. He will be meeting with the Imam from NYC instead. Supposedly, they've struck a deal about not having the mosque so close to Ground Zero, in exchange for this moron to not burn the Koran... don't know the details.

Whether the local event will still happen as a show of interfaith acceptance Saturday, I don't know. If it does, I still want to go.

It's about time we start healing this country. For far too long, we have found some excuse to hate each other, fight and kill each other. I intend to rectify my own bit of inequality and buy a Koran and read it. We need to learn and work with each other, not kill and hate. Jesus only rose up in anger at the money changers in the temple. He taught peace, love and acceptance everywhere else. He taught LOVE, and any honest Christian should know that and listen more to His word and not the words of those who twist and pervert the Bible (or Koran, or any other text of faith) for their own views.

Once we heal the hatred in our own country, only then can we lead the way in Peace.

Amanda

I have heard all sorts of politicians and pundits condemning it, covering the spectrum from President Obama to Sarah Palin. In fact, I can't say I've heard anyone say they think it's a good idea. The most I've heard is that, as I said, it's undoubtedly protected speech by the Supreme Court's definition.

And it looks like I've been proven right about it not happening at all.

(And I have to say, I would also not be surprised if Mr. Jones turns around and suddenly does it after all. I'm not sure he's playing with a full deck, and jokers are wild.)

I am not embarrassed to be an American because of this. This man is only one person with a measley flock of I think I read earlier 50 people. What a minority. The media should have ignored him. They love to get blown things out of proportion.

I don't know how we can expect other countries to think kindly of us, if they hear about instances like this guy...
I'm curious how would an American Christian feel if a group in Saudi Arabia had a bible burning event that was all over the news?
I think there was some kind of flag burning outrage recently about another country burning US flags, although I don't remember too well. It's the same thing really...
I feel like after this disagreement over the mosque building, things have just gone down hill when it comes to how tolerant Americans have been of Islam.

It wouldn't bother me at all. It may happen on a regular basis, for all I know (although most Muslims seem to be reluctant to burn the Bible, at least partially because the Koran shares a good deal of the early part of the Bible).

I have never supported a flag-burning amendment to the Constitution. Ridiculous idea.

And if we're going to go after people who may endanger our troops in the field, the New York Times would probably be number one on the list. But we have this little thing about Freedom of the Press...in that same, awkward, inconvenient document that contains our rights about freedom of speech.

Let me heartily recommend listening to that hour of the Diane Rehm show I posted above. Very informative, fascinating historical perspective.

It is so weird, the pastor's story about cancelling the burning because of a deal to move the mosque. The Iman says there never was a deal. What in the world is going on.

The guy is a crack pot with delusions of grandeur IMO. Apparently in his mind, he had singlehandedly forced the Islamic cultural center out of the Burlington Coat factory. Imam Rauf was supposedly willing to talk with him (which I thought was very decent, considering the stature of the Imam compared to the crackpot) but stated clearly that the cultural center is not about to move.

So crackpot is going to stay in the public eye by playing "do we or don't we" up until the last minute.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/09/0...and-quran.html

By the way here is more on the crackpot. The Germans tossed him out. What a shame we can't!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...rning-preacher

Just out of curiosity, how would you feel if you woke up and heard that Quran-burning bashes had spread across the country; hundreds of them. Would it still be a matter of upholding the glory of the constitution? For some reason, it seems to matter to many that this is an "isolated" incident. At what point would rampant disregard for humanity make a difference?

It looks good on the surface, but it seems what he's really saying is that we shouldn't have to hold ourselves to a higher standard than other countries. I thought that was the whole point of America, was that we had this intangible "something" that elevated us above everyone else. That's what the politicians usually say. People can't have it both ways.

The fact that this is an isolated event still does not make it the right thing to do. I don't understand the reasoning behind such an action. I certainly would not be a participant at any church who would carry out such a stunt.
I am still hoping it will never happen.

I'm guessing you don't remember the 60's, when it seemed like protesters were everywhere, burning flags, draft cards, bras, effigies, and who knows what else. The Supreme Court has consistently ruled that those things are protected by the first amendment, and burning the Bible or the Koran would be, too, I'm certain.

Do I like people being purposely provocative? If you've read my posts here, you know that I detest it; it's what so many people think is clever, passes for intelligent debate, and is the stock in trade of political activists and the too-lame-brained-to-think-an-original-thought dittoheads on the right and move-on-ers on the left.

However, I respect the Constitution, and I know that restricting freedoms is a slippery slope. In addition to that, it always ends up biting its advocates in the end.

As far as the Florida pastor is concerned, I now think he's going to go to New York, talk to Imam Rauf, and then come back to Florida accusing Rauf of perfidy and holding his book burning after all. As I said before, the man is detestable and a publicity hound.

As for Gingrich, his only claim to fame as I see it is that he was in charge of the House during the years that the Republican legislature worked with Bill Clinton to accomplish some very important things. Since then, his personal life can only be described as "messy," and his political work also has a good deal of the publicity hound in it. It's important to point out the hypocrisy of the Arab world in decrying the U.S. but practicing worse at home, but you never justify bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior. Gingrich, contrary to rumors, will NOT run for President; and if he did, he would lose in a landslide. I know I could never vote for him, just because of the person he's proven himself to be by the way he's treated the women in his life (which I personally think is one of the most reliable indicators of a man's character, and was one of the reasons I couldn't vote for Bill Clinton).

Have I made myself clear? If not, let me say it again: The pastor's plan to burn the Koran is undoubtedly legal, but ill-conceived, ill-advised, and likely to have the opposite effect he thinks it will.

Desecrated Qurans spur security patrols

Ah, the power of suggestion on the simple minded. The preacher obtained his desired effect, even while, in his own mind, reserving the right of denial. He will no doubt claim that he "didn't do anything".

I'm having trouble picking a side over this one. I've tried researching to see if any other overly-provocative groups were billed for security at their activities (like KKK rallies) and can't find anything. I will agree with the city on this, IF it applies to any group that seeks to provoke violent responses and isn't just a one-time "we'll show you!" stunt.

City Plans To Bill Pastor For Security Around Planned Quran Burning