doll face persian

Originally posted by Imagyne
About munchkins... as I breed them, please feel free to ask questions about what they are suppose to be, sam, I'd like to know what they're doing to them there in NZ.

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Hello Ken- We have two cat fancies in New Zealand - The New Zealand Cat Fancy and Catz Inc. - NZ cat fancy has been the only cat fancy in NZ for many many years until about just under a year ago a bunch of people who couldn't get their own way with the NZCF started their own "club". We had one breeder in the NZCF who imported the first Munchkins 5..6 years ago??? She has brung in most of the exotic breeds here- she couldn't get her way with the NZCF so went over to Catz. and is breeding her Munckins with them - she has helped a few more breeders to start breeding Munchkins and I think there are 3 Munchkin breeders here - probably under 50 Munchkins in the country - not a very popular breed and although they attract people at shows the comments said about them are not very nice - I'm a cat lover tho - so they appeal to me.

Sam

Originally posted by Maggpie
Upon great research, I have discovered
that the term "doll-faced" is used to describe a persian cat with a face that actually protrudes from the skull. Alot of cat associations register these cats because they are purebred persians, however they are not considerd "show" cats. The flat faced persians (extreme-faced) are considered the standard for persian cats and show quality cats. You will never be able to show a "doll-faced" persian in these associations. Actually, early persians did not look at all like show persians today - they had longer faces. It has been through selective breeding over the years which has produced the flat smacked up against the wall look, which is what alot of cat associations prefer as the "standard". However, there are associations that prefer the "traditional" persian just as well. Hope this gives you a little more insight into the breed

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Hello Magpie-
Doll faced persians as I have said is more a term for a persian with a longer nose and a "babier"(as described) face.

Exactly - Selective breeding has formed a modern persian and cat fancies have adapted the standard to the persian breed.

Persians CAN be shown if they are.. so called "Doll Faced" but they will NOT get any where in shows because they do not conform to the persian standard created by the fancy the shows rules are under.

I'm happy to answer anything asked.

Sam, We faced the same problem here a few years back. There was an uneducated article in one of the cat mags here that basically ripped them apart. Then there were breeders who would tell people that they couldn't jump on counters because of their short legs and all sorts of crazy things. Then of course there is/was that creepy lady who was breeding "twisty cats" and somehow munchkin got associated with them and the bad rep was there again. Here in the U.S. there has been a loooong road to educate people about them.

I hear people do the same with persians... "oh how can they breath" etc... it is right pain in the bum.

I think my very first question was misunderstood. I didnt mean was he a doll face I just meant persian period, because I wasnt very famliar with the Long nosed persians. I just wasnt sure if I couldve been scammed. I dont care about shows...My babies are for my enjoyment only. I wouldve preferred a standard persian but I got my TC now so I dont care! But thanks for all the useful information....Thanks for the compliment on the pictures I am very fond of both my babies!!!!!!

Yes bbmom he would be considered a doll-faced persian.

Originally posted by Imagyne
Sam, We faced the same problem here a few years back. There was an uneducated article in one of the cat mags here that basically ripped them apart. Then there were breeders who would tell people that they couldn't jump on counters because of their short legs and all sorts of crazy things. Then of course there is/was that creepy lady who was breeding "twisty cats" and somehow munchkin got associated with them and the bad rep was there again. Here in the U.S. there has been a loooong road to educate people about them.

I hear people do the same with persians... "oh how can they breath" etc... it is right pain in the bum.

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Thanks Ken- It sure is!!!!! I agree!!

I think they are cuties but they look like grumpy old men

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Actually the Persian standard calls for a sweet, open look. So the cats who look grumpy really arent top show either. A good Persian wont have problems with tearing and breathing.

I am facing the same problem. I had Ginger from a pet store as we fell in her love from the first look. We did not see her nose but it is flat. I do not breed for comercial or shows, but I like the nature. So when she wanted to marry, I looked for a persian male for her, and I did not know about that nose issue, so the 3 babies came with long noses. I keep one of them, Sherry, she is adorable. The problem is some of the people do not like to get a baby cat with a nose. I faced that when one of the three kitten stayed for 4 months till I found her a loving home. So if you are not caring about having babies, never mind about the nose.

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If you are going to breed cats responsibly you need to breed to the standard. The standard isnt just there for showing, it says that this is what breeders should be doing, then breeders take there cats to the shows to show what they are doing. Animals from a pet store are sickly, they are exposed to many diseases and genetically they are a train wreck. You should not be breeding Ginger. If you like "nature" then rescue pregnant cats who need homes, raise her and her babies, then find them homes, dont breed genetically unsound pets. Im also not very happy that 4 months seems like an old kitten to you. Kittens should stay with their mom and littermates till at least 12 weeks but they should really be at least 16 weeks before going to a new home. The kittens are healthier and better socialized at that point. If you are going to breed cats responsibly you NEED to worry about the nose. You need to worry about the cat conforming to the standard, because breeding cats that do not conform to the standard is nothing more than a backyard breeder.

I KNOW what the standard calls for and that's just PrincessPurrs comment on cats , Thanks but my cats are currently winning nearly every show they are in, they are what the standard wants

Originally posted by MandoPlayer
If you are going to breed cats responsibly you need to breed to the standard. The standard isnt just there for showing, it says that this is what breeders should be doing, then breeders take there cats to the shows to show what they are doing.

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I would agree with that, but wich associations standards are you reffering to.... Unfortunatley they are slightly different standards in each association.

Because standards are developed BY the breeders in the association, they are the ones who decide what their cats should look like.
Just because a cat doesn't meet the standard doesn't mean that they come from backyard breeders.... Standards are subject to interpretation, there ARE gray areas, what "a sweet open expression" means to you, may not mean the same thing to me.

The problems often lies in the standard itself, they are often to vague, generalized, and leave alot open to interpretation.

They didnt originate with the faces that they have today. Breeders are the ones that determine the breed standard this is agreed by me-don't get me wrong I love the "smooshie" faces.
http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profile...color78yb.html

I breed for the CFA standard and like most breeders that actively show in CFA and are really truely trying to improve the breed I am against ALL breeders that breed "doll face" persians. We breeders that do produce "pets" alter them for just that reason, they are PETS! They do nothing to improve the breed and should not be allowed to breed and make more "pets."

By no means does this mean that they are no good. They are loving and adorable kittens and deserve to be put into homes where they will be spoiled. They are just holding back improving the breed by producing more pets.

If you ask any Persian Exhibitor in CFA about a "pet" breeder they will say that they are BYB's.

Dont mean to be rude, just my opinion.

Elizabeth

I have a smooshi faced Persian. My question is: Why does the doll faced Persian hamper the breed? I think they are beautiful. I always wonder about my little Persian, I wonder if he's comfortable with his smooshi face. I'm sure he doesn't know any different, but if he did, would he prefer a "normal" cat face like the doll faced Persians. Why did the breeders decide to change the original face in the first place?

I don't understand why breeding doll-faced persians or himalayans would be a dis-service to the breed. In the beginning, persians and himalayans were doll-faced. Now that people have been breeding persians and himalayans with flat faces, look at all the problems they are prone to have - which is not normal. The doll-face is a much healthier face - as confirmed by many veteranarians. I believe that the associations that prefer the flat face as their standard are wrong. IMO.

I don't understand why breeding doll-faced persians or himalayans would be a dis-service to the breed. In the beginning, persians and himalayans were doll-faced. Now that people have been breeding persians and himalayans with flat faces, look at all the problems they are prone to have - which is not normal. The doll-face is a much healthier face - as confirmed by many veteranarians. I believe that the associations that prefer the flat face as their standard are wrong. IMO.

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I completely agree. I have a newspaper article from 1872 which has a drawing of a Persian, it looks nothing like the Persians of today. Ok, so the breed standard has been changed, but there are still many people who prefer the longer nosed Persians. Same with Siamese. The Traditional Siamese is quite popular because not everybody likes the slender Siamese that are the norm.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the Persians & Siamese of today, but there is DEFINITELY nothing wrong with breeders who try & preserve the "original" look of these breeds, and many people like that.

Julia.

I think there should be room in the breeding world for both types of faces on cats. Personally, I think the doll faced Persians are very beautiful-my little boy is a smooshi faced guy, but I sure wouldn't find anything wrong with the more traditional looking face. I still would like to know why the breeders decided to radically change the shape of the cats face.

My Siamese, by the way are the more traditional looking Siamese. I think the Wedgey faces ones are cool also, but to me they look mean.

I would love to see 2 standards, one for the doll-faced and one for the smooshed face. Call one Persian, and the other Traditional Persian or something like that. Both are beautiful!

My Tillie looks like adoll faced Persian. As far as I know, she is just a domestic long hair...but she does have the doll faced look. My sweet little Tillinator!

Yes, that's my point. I think that there should be two "types" of Persian & Siamese.

Only problem is there are issues with the name Traditional Siamese, with a lady claiming the "copyright" on the name. It's a very long (& boring) story, but it hasn't exactly helped matters with a fair bit of bickering, which even made it's way over to Australia when I looked into breeding them.

Anyway, I think it's the CFA have two standards for the Burmese because the Burmese in America are different to the Burmese in Europe/Australia. So, I don't see why they can't do it with Siamese & Persians too.

Julia.

Persians are Persians are Persians are Persians.

Nearly all over the world now we are breding for a open cat with sweet expression, cobby body , small ears that fot well in with the head etc etc, why should we make two different breeds?

I live in NZ and I'm breeding for the CFA standard which is alot like our NZCF one.

I thought the person who originally started this post might be interested in seeing this link from our own catsite. It explains briefly, the traditional doll face and the modern flat faced persian. The picture of the traditional doll faced persian looks a lot like yours!

The Persian Cat

I think it would be a travisty to end the look of the Traditional looking Persian. They are so beautiful, and I think they have such sweet faces. Like I said, I have a Smooshi faced boy, but I think the Traditional faced Persian face is actually a lot prettier.

Here's my Stanley: