Republicans to use "NYC mosque" as an election issue - Page 2

I'm not one to get all sappy over history or historical documents, like the Constitution, but something I heard on television last night made me stand up and take notice...

I don't know who spoke the original quote, but someone said that placing a Mosque there - there being "anywhere", really - represents the very principles that America was founded upon. There was a day when it - America - was all about (fleeing) religious persecution. How terribly ironic is all of this, then?

Yes, times change...traumatic events throw a wrench in the greatest of plans...but it's becoming a bit of a sad commentary that - on the whole, the (only) 200+ year whole that is this country - we've come full circle and become what we despised and feared most.

EDIT: Katiemae, I apologize, as I see you wrote almost the same thing I did, just before me. I'd delete it, but since I billed the writing of my post to a client at work, I suppose it's only right that I let it stand.

not a problem! always nice to see someone thinking rationally and can't let the client's dollars go to waste

I understand that the Greek Orthodox church is trying to rebuild what was destroyed. Every effort to do this has been shot down so far. The Federal government has taken over private property to place national parks or monuments when they have desired. I would like to see this area designated someway to recognize what happened there to all Americans who were affected, no matter what their religion and a national monument would do that.

People are entitled to their opinions always. You don't have to agree with them and they don't have to agree with you. That is what this forum is titled, In My Opinion. NYC is a place where so many Americans of all faiths lost their lives, it is only natural that people all across this country would be expressing their concerns. It is still a very tender spot in the heart of Americans. God bless every family, no matter what their faith, of those who still hurt.

Where are you getting that information?
http://www.observer.com/2008/real-estate/church-deal


You may want to see a national monument there, but unless national monuments pay taxes, I doubt that that would be good for NYC. To say nothing of the fact that it would be of little use to the residents of Tribeca and people who work there daily. If the local board planning has come to the conclusion that a community center would best serve the interests of New Yorkers, I don't see how someone living far away and who might conceivably visit once or twice takes priority.

Aside from anything else, the community center in question building is to occupy the building where the Burlington Coat factory used to be. Why should that building be designated a national monument? Why not all the other buildings in the neighborhood that are now housing OTB and porn shops without anyone getting up in arms?

Take a look at the CNN Poll "proving" that a majority of Americans are opposed to NYC's decision. The way they worded the question, well how could anyone be for it?
"As you may know, a group of Muslims in the U.S. plan to build a mosque two blocks from the site in New York City where the World Trade Center used to stand. Do you favor or oppose this plan?"
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/im.../11/rel11a.pdf

It is a COMMUNITY CENTER for crying out loud. But since there are so many politicians who do NOT live and work in NYC poking their noses into local affairs and misrepresenting the facts (along with serial fact twisters like FOX and conservative bloggers), American citizens who don't check facts are being misled.

On another note I also have to say that I find the statements and actions of certain politicians on this issue despicable. It is none of their daggone business but they are easily able to whip up a frenzy over nothing in the hopes of getting elected. I guess if these people had been around in 1941 they would have been calling for anyone of Asian descent to be put into internment camps and kicking Dachshunds on the street.

I must say that it sickens me, as an American, that this has become political fodder for Republicans and conservatives. What are we, as a nation, becoming? Keith Olbermann had a brilliant commentary concerning this, and he says things much better than I can.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...31398#38731398

Maybe she will realize it is in one of the "57" states Mr. Obama said he visited before he got elected.

As for your statement that national monuments don't pay taxes so it would be of no benefit to New Yorkers to have one there, the last time I checked churches don't pay taxes either. Doesn't that include mosques.

There are over 500,000 muslims who live in the New York City area. Many of them work in lower Manhattan. Many own and operate businesses in lower Manhattan. Many live in lower Manhattan. Many shop in lower Manhattan.

These aren't people coming in from out of town or out of country to impose something upon a foreign land. These are residents building something for their community.

If these law abiding residents of New York and citizens and permanent residents of this great country conduct most of their lives in lower Manhattan, why should they not also be able to worship freely there as well?

Or should all the muslims just pack up and leave, because the very sight of a woman in hijab or a halal gyro cart is an offense to some people's sensibilities. Because that's really where it gets to. If our places of worship are an offense, it is only a short hop, step and a jump to our very existence being offensive.

There are more than half a million muslims in New York City. That's over 5,000 per mosque, at the very least. Most mosques can't hold more than a few hundred, on average, some more, some less.

I have not read, nor have I heard anyone say this. That is not what the opposition is about.

Why do you keep refering to the planned use of the building as a mosque? It is NOT a "mosque," it is a community center. The facts are there and have been there for everyone to see, including the people whipping up opposition.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-95658654.html

How many churches have swimming pools, basketball courts and restaurants?

And even if it were a mosque, we still have religious freedom in our country, despite the best efforts of arch-conservatives to declare the US a "Christian Nation." Thankfully we are no such thing, and our laws at least respect ALL religions, even if many of our citizens do not. There is no legal basis for discriminating on the basis of religion, and loudmouth politicians hopefully will be unsuccessful in changing that.

And I am not talking about income taxes, I am talking about property taxes, which as far as I know, no one gets exempted from except national parks and monuments. Here is someone in a western state playing the game from trying to sell a few acres OUT of Grand Teton National Park in order to increase revenues.
But here is some more detail on why declaring the old Burlington Coat Factory a "National Monument" (not that it qualifies anyway, unless we need a monument to bargain hunting) would mean raising taxes for everyone else in NYC.
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article...ering/C41/L41/

So why should the government of NYC be penalized on top of having all these out-of-towners telling them what they should and shouldn't be doing?

Churches are tax exempt and they do not pay property tax in the state of NC. I can't speak for NY, but it might be the same there. I call it a mosque because of the title of this thread when it was opened. That person says what they want to build is a community center/mosque. I wouldn't think there would be much worshipping going on in just a community center.

Regardless of party, politicians are idiots and that will never change. However, they aren't alone in stirring the pot over this issue. The media, another group of idiots, are doing more than their fair share to stir the pot. Who needs facts when there is hype? Uh, yeah...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot...cribing-mosque

Actually, this entire subject would seem to put the "Christian Nation" subject to bed. One of the major principles in the founding of the United States was religious freedom. And, judging from what is happening to Islam in NYC, true religious freedom is a "no way" as far as most Christians are concerned...therefore, the national principles and Christian principles are in conflict.

This isn't about religious freedom. We can all agree that they have a right to build a mosque on any land they own as long as it is in compliance with local laws and ordinances.

This is about decency and sensitivity. Those insisting that this mosque is built on this particular parcel are insensitive to the victims' families and loved ones of the 9/11 terrorist plot in which the terrorist murderers cried "Praise Allah" as they were carrying out their deadly missions.

I'm sure there would be a similar cry if there was a Buddhist/Japanese Cultural Center adjacent to Pearl Harbor.

My understanding is that we don't know where the money to build this mosque is coming from, but the imam is busy raising money from unknown sources. He has repeatedly and without discussion turned down offers of other sites. And it's not like NYC is without its share of mosques, since there are 100 or more within the 5 boroughs of New York City.

This is ONLY about religious freedom, or the oppression thereof. Muslims from over 50 different nations died on 9-11, over 100 from the US. It is deeply insensitive to tell those Americans that their losses don't count. And it is nothing less that insulting for Fox News to continue with their "Americans vs. Muslims" mantra, and their apparent refusal to acknowlege that a great many Americans ARE Muslims.

90 countries lost citizens of numerous different faiths, to include Hindi and Buddhism. Well over 300 of the "3000 American Lives" Hannity is so found of erroneously referencing were non-Americans from other countries. Over 8000 (nearly 3 times as many) Muslims were slaughtered by Christians in Srebrenica, yet none of those refugees living in the US feel there is any need to keep Christian churches out of their neighborhoods. In fact, that Greek Orthodox Church that people are wanting to point out isn't being built at ground zero...how do we know that Church wouldn't become a rallying point for the Orthodox Greek Volunteer Guard, one of the units that participated in that very massacre?

But that is where it is going.

If people are saying that the existence of a place where I go to worship (and swim and watch plays and socialize with friends), an integral part of my being and personality, is insensitive, then where exactly do we draw the line?

Why is a cultural center/mosque offensive, but not a muslim working on wall street? Or a woman who wears hijab who's walking through lower manhattan? Or the gyro cart guy? Or a muslim owned souvenir shop?

They all have exactly the same link to the 9/11 hijackers as the people who want to open the cultural center - they had nothing to do with it, but just happen to be muslim. They didn't plan the 9/11 attacks. They didn't finance it. And more likely than not, they didn't support it and cried on that fateful day. I know I did.

If it's insensitive to fully want to put down roots in an area and live there (which will include having a place of worship and a place to hang out), then we might as well just declare a 1 mile no muslim zone around the hallowed ground zero.



Or maybe 1 mile isn't enough. 5? 10? 100?

Once again, they are not building a mosque, it is a community center.

I'm still not seeing what is so special about this 'particular parcel.' It's where the Burlington Coat Factory used to be. And it is not adjacent to Ground Zero. Two blocks may not seem like much to some people but in downtown Manhattan it might as well be on the other side of the island.

And this brings us back to the question of how far away the objectors considered "suitable" for building a community center. How about Teaneck NJ? Or is Bergen County too close too? Oops they have a Muslim mayor - that could make it hard for the Republicans out in the midwest and west to make a case against a mosque there, couldn't it?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/08/nyregion/08towns.html

I really recommend watching that video from Keith Olbermann that nanner posted. He hit the nail absolutely on the head as to what this is really about. This is about conservatives putting their bigotry ahead of the law and the constitution to foment hatred and intolerance and all in the name of cheap vote-getting (or book-selling).

Towards the end of the Olbermann video you get to see the neighborhood where the community center is going to be located. It has been renamed to "Park51" to accomodate those how have misinterpreted the use of the name "Cordoba House." If you are not familiar with Manhattan that is reason enough to watch it. This is not a thriving part of the NYC financial district, nor is it the "shadow" of the former twin towers, it is just one ugly boarded up storefront after another in a seedy retail district that has seen better days and is badly in need of being revitalized.

Sadly there is some real hatred and religious intolerance being practiced by those who call themselves "Christian." What is in Staten Island that is so sacred that people object to a mosque being built there? An abandoned Two Guys?

As usual I think John Stewart did the best work on this. The linked clip addresses the Mosque, The 'radical Imam' in his appearence on Fox news and two clips of the ever brilliantly self contadictory Glenn Beck saying exactly what the Imam has said.

http://ww.tvsquad.com/2010/08/17/jon...ound-zero-mos/

First, Beck attacked Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf -- the man who is trying to build the mosque. And then Beck presented this quote from Rauf:

"I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened [on 9/11], but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."

Glenn Beck acted righteously appalled by this statement. But then, Stewart cut to a clip of Beck from three months earlier. And in that clip, Mr. Beck also argued that U.S. policies helped lead to 9/11. ... Whoops. This means that Mr. Beck and Mr. Rauf pretty much said the same thing."

ANOTHER INSENSETIVITY

Breaking: Halal food carts spotted ON Ground Zero!

A reader writes in to sound the alarm about another sacrilege that we've all somehow overlooked:

One thing I haven't seen anyone write about is the presence of Muslim food carts MUCH closer to Ground Zero. There are at least two, depending on the time of day, along West Broadway between Vesey and Park Place. One is practically on top of the Ground Zero construction site, outside the Path station. Aren't they an "affront," a "provocation"? Muslims engaging in in-your-face commerce on sacred ground, with the word HALAL prominently displayed on their carts! Where's Palin when we need her??









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I don't think either of us will change our mind about this. The fact is that the perpetrators and terrorists who plotted and carried out this crime were radical muslims/Islamists. Therefore, IMHO building either a mosque or an Islamic cultural center so near the site where 3,000 +/- lost their lives at the hands of radical Islamic terrorists is insensitive to ALL the victims, of any and all faiths. Imagine continuing to wave a swastika flag over Auschwitz even now some 65 years after the Holocaust. Not only would Jews be offended, but I venture to guess that the majority of all members of the western world would take offense, yes-even Germans!

Except that the swastika is the flag of the Nazi party, who were directly responsible for the events of the Hashoah.

An islamic cultural center represents the people who want to build it, and the people who want to partake in it's amenities, none of whom had anything to do with 9/11.

I'll post these without comment other than I see analogies.

http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/index.html

http://world.globaltimes.cn/asia-pac...08/560634.html

I believe it is a fair analogy. The terrorist killers were Islamists. Same thing.

So let them build it somewhere else. No one is against them building it somewhere - just not there.

Except that neo-nazies hold the same ideology as the nazis.

The people who are building the cultural center do not hold the same ideology as the terrorists.


And as for building it somewhere else, I defer to Mr. Stewart.

Sure, build it somewhere else, but not on Staten Island, or in Tennessee, Wisconsin or California.



Why is this all troubling to me as an american muslim? Because it's the rearing of the ugly head that's been bubbling under the surface for years. People are no longer content with spewing hatred online. Now they're protesting in front of mosques and vilifying us all.

I think they should tear down all the Catholic churches around the Oklahoma City Federal building that was bombed. Timothy McVeigh was catholic after all. Using the logic of the republicans, that would make all catholic's guilty of those murders.

I have Muslim's in my family, as well as Jews, Catholics, and many flavors of Protestants. Putting all people from any faith into the same camp as the extremists who claim to be part of that faith is just plain ludicrous. Therefore the republicans who support this are ludicrous.

You took the words right out of my mouth. The McVeigh comparison came to my mind, too, and I usually describe my family as "including everybody but Hindus, but that won't take long".

As to ludicrous supporters, I'd go a step farther and say that they're so disrespectful of the U.S. constitution and the history of our country that they're the ones who could be labeled "un-American", not those "horrible liberals" who dared oppose the invasion of Iraq.

What I think is a crime is that the word "Muslim" is always placed in front of the word terrorist these days. McVeigh was a Catholic terrorist. Not sure what Hitler was, but say he was a Protestant - that would make him a Protestant terrorist. The KKK could be classified as Southern Baptist terrorists. Shall I go on with examples? Would you like to see your religion classified as a terrorist group simply because some nut-case that claims to follow your doctrine commits a terrorist act? No, that would be stupid.

When are people going to stop racially profiling all Muslims? Because that is all that is happening here. I dare everyone who is opposed to this mosque to befriend a Muslim for a while to discover for yourself that they are faith abiding people just like yourself.

Yes, this issue really hacks me off.

Yes, they were radicals. Do you know what that word means? Oh, and by the way, a swastika flag is a national party emblem, not a worldwide religion. If you want to put it on that level, I'll be on the bandwagon with you to keep from flying a Saudi flag over ground zero.

Your comparison makes perfect sense if ALL Germans were Nazi's. Is that where this is going?

Some Baptists celebrate the death of every American soldier, sailor and marine, and hold gaudy protests at their funerals. I think we should tear down every Baptist Church in every town that has lost a serviceman.