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The other side of the tolerance coin...

post #1 of 24
7/28/10 at 4:55pm
Thread Starter 
Court Upholds Expulsion of Counceling Student Who Opposes Homosexuality

Just to get this out there to begin with:
  1. I support Gay Marriage.
  2. I'm not Christian.
But this whole story is so WRONG! This is a PUBLIC University. Two of them, actually. There was a story about the Augusta State University case yesterday in addition to Eastern Michigan State University which has already been to court, and the court sided with them.

I am usually one of the first to jump on anyone who claims "Christians are persecuted." For the most part, I don't see it at all. Y'all have the majority. Just because Hollywood glamorizes things like sex outside of marriage doesn't mean persecution at all. Try being one of the minority in the religious world, being told you're going to hell by probably 70-85% of the world.

However, this is a public university which means that they have to abide by the Constitution. They take government (taxpayers) money, so they have to! This isn't a private college that doesn't allow a gay glee club (sorry, first thing that came to mind). They must allow Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion.

I don't care what they say. To expel a student from the counceling program, let alone from the school, because of her religious belief about homosexuals violates Freedom of Religion. Then for a judge to uphold it...leaves me speechless.

In the real world councelors specialize. I would bet that many of the students in that program wouldn't take Christians who believe that their child is making a choice to be homosexual and disapprove. That's a real world situation. I would imagine most of the people who graduate from that program would show those people the door.

There are many people who actively look for councelors who hold religious beliefs similar to their own. 99% of what she would see in the real world would have nothing to do with homosexuality. This would be a non-issue!

To try to reprogram her way of thinking because it doesn't go with their belief system is just as misguided as trying to reprogram anyone else to go along with a religion's belief system. It's not right, and it's certainly not the right of a public entity.
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post #2 of 24
7/28/10 at 4:59pm
You are so very right on the whole issue. I couldn't agree more, but I would if I could.
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post #3 of 24
7/28/10 at 5:57pm
Those that believe in the Bible know that in Revelation that the bad will become "good" and the good will become "bad".

Because the Bible is clear what is sin, and in today's world its getting more and more "acceptable" for a person to do anything they want and it should be accepted by all you are seeing these types of things.

Jesus warned about being persecuted for your beliefs because the world doesn't want to hear right from wrong.

I oppose gay marriage and I oppose the act of homosexuality.
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post #4 of 24
7/28/10 at 6:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Those that believe in the Bible know that in Revelation that the bad will become "good" and the good will become "bad".

Because the Bible is clear what is sin, and in today's world its getting more and more "acceptable" for a person to do anything they want and it should be accepted by all you are seeing these types of things.

Jesus warned about being persecuted for your beliefs because the world doesn't want to hear right from wrong.

I oppose gay marriage and I oppose the act of homosexuality.
So the bible is "becoming bad"? Interesting.

It's hardly clear about anything. If it was clear, those that believe it could explain it without falling back on mythical excerpts or insisting that it must be believed to be understood. It's sort of like the ghost hunters saying that you must believe in ghosts before you'll see one.
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post #5 of 24
7/28/10 at 7:33pm
She was expelled from the counseling program because she chose to decide who she would and would not counsel based on her religious beliefs. I'm sorry but if you want to be part of the program, you have to check your prejudices at the door. She does not have any legal "right" to be part of the counseling program, and if a precedent is set by which individual counselors decide who they feel like counseling and who they feel like leaving out in the cold, what is the program worth? What if they had expelled someone for refusing to counsel someone whose skin color or religion they didn't like? Would FOX News have been so "morally" outraged?
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post #6 of 24
7/28/10 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
So the bible is "becoming bad"? Interesting.

It's hardly clear about anything. If it was clear, those that believe it could explain it without falling back on mythical excerpts or insisting that it must be believed to be understood. It's sort of like the ghost hunters saying that you must believe in ghosts before you'll see one.
Golden Kitty didn't say the Bible is becoming bad. She was referring to what the Bible says in Isaiah chapter 5 where it says the day will come when people will call good evil and evil good. Also the Bible says in Romans 1:25 that the day will come when people will exchange the truth for lie. I think we are living in that day.
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post #7 of 24
7/28/10 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
Golden Kitty didn't say the Bible is becoming bad. She was referring to what the Bible says in Isaiah chapter 5 where it says the day will come when people will call good evil and evil good. Also the Bible says in Romans 1:25 that the day will come when people will exchange the truth for lie. I think we are living in that day.
Ah, so the bible is an exception to the "good becoming bad" rule. And if a rule has exceptions, then it's NOT absolute, and someone has to decide what it applies to, and what it doesn't. So, who makes that decision, and based on what authority?
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post #8 of 24
7/28/10 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Ah, so the bible is an exception to the "good becoming bad" rule. And if a rule has exceptions, then it's NOT absolute, and someone has to decide what it applies to, and what it doesn't. So, who makes that decision, and based on what authority?
Isaiah 5:
20. Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21. Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

It does not say that evil is becoming good or good becoming evil. It says people are calling it that, which causes them to be wise in their own eyes.
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post #9 of 24
7/28/10 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
Isaiah 5:
20. Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21. Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

It does not say that evil is becoming good or good becoming evil. It says people are calling it that, which causes them to be wise in their own eyes.
So you're saying that GoldenKitty was wrong?
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post #10 of 24
7/28/10 at 8:03pm
God. Because He says so.
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post #11 of 24
7/28/10 at 8:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
So you're saying that GoldenKitty was wrong?
No she was not wrong. I am sure she knows the same scriptures just as well as I do. She just was paraphrasing what it says.
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post #12 of 24
7/28/10 at 8:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by threecatowner View Post
God. Because He says so.
So what does God say about BP's CEO?
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post #13 of 24
7/28/10 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
No she was not wrong. I am sure she knows the same scriptures just as well as I do. She just was paraphrasing what it says.
So, good is becoming bad but not becoming bad, just being perceived as becoming bad but not really. Ok, I've got it. Now, seeing as all this determination is being made by people, purely through their own bias and interpretation...what difference does it make?
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post #14 of 24
7/28/10 at 8:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
So what does God say about BP's CEO?
:
Oh. Wait. Skippy, you were making a joke weren't you?

:
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post #15 of 24
7/28/10 at 8:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by threecatowner View Post
:
Oh. Wait. Skippy, you were making a joke weren't you?

:
No, I wasn't. It seems I hear "God says" and "Jesus says" quite regularly. So, what do they say about what is happening in the world right now. Do they condemn BP as a company, or just the CEO, or are they just writing it off as an unfortunate accident and it'll all be better someday?
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post #16 of 24
7/28/10 at 10:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
She was expelled from the counseling program because she chose to decide who she would and would not counsel based on her religious beliefs. I'm sorry but if you want to be part of the program, you have to check your prejudices at the door. She does not have any legal "right" to be part of the counseling program, and if a precedent is set by which individual counselors decide who they feel like counseling and who they feel like leaving out in the cold, what is the program worth? What if they had expelled someone for refusing to counsel someone whose skin color or religion they didn't like? Would FOX News have been so "morally" outraged?
IMO, if she paid her tuition and makes the grades then she certainly does have a "right" to be part of the counseling program in a PUBLIC university. If it were a private school it would be a different matter entirely. Part of their operating funds come from taxpayer dollars so they have to abide by the Constitution of the United States and the laws of the state in which they are located.

In the decision the judge said, “In the case of Ms. Ward, the university determined that she would never change her behavior and would consistently refuse to counsel clients on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs – including homosexual relationships.†(My emphasis.)

They expect her to put her school or even her career before her God?

The 10 Commandments are adhered to by Jews and Christians. Muslims have a very similar set of rules/commandments in the Q'uran. All three of the world's major religions have this (in various texts) as the #1, First and Foremost Rule from God:

Quote:
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
Many Christian denominations interpret that as God comes before all else. Period. If Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son for God; and since God Himself did sacrifice His Only Son for all mankind then it is only fitting that His believers put God and their religion before all else in their lives. Before family, and most certainly before career.

It also said that she would not counsel "on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs." It doesn't say that she wouldn't counsel anyone who disagrees with her or doesn't hold with her beliefs.

You can certainly disagree with me in my interpretation, but I see it as infringing on her Freedom of Religion.

In the other story, which is completely one sided as they only spoke with her lawyer and went off of the lawsuit as filed, she didn't refuse to counsel anyone. She spoke about her beliefs in class and wrote about them as well. And yet she's being told she must change her core beliefs that are based on her religion or be expelled from a PUBLIC university program.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
So what does God say about BP's CEO?
I think God says that he's a doof and needs to stop talking in public. Or maybe that's just common sense saying that.
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post #17 of 24
7/29/10 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
IMO, if she paid her tuition and makes the grades then she certainly does have a "right" to be part of the counseling program in a PUBLIC university. If it were a private school it would be a different matter entirely. Part of their operating funds come from taxpayer dollars so they have to abide by the Constitution of the United States and the laws of the state in which they are located.

In the decision the judge said, “In the case of Ms. Ward, the university determined that she would never change her behavior and would consistently refuse to counsel clients on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs – including homosexual relationships.” (My emphasis.)

They expect her to put her school or even her career before her God?
...
It also said that she would not counsel "on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs." It doesn't say that she wouldn't counsel anyone who disagrees with her or doesn't hold with her beliefs.

You can certainly disagree with me in my interpretation, but I see it as infringing on her Freedom of Religion.

In the other story, which is completely one sided as they only spoke with her lawyer and went off of the lawsuit as filed, she didn't refuse to counsel anyone. She spoke about her beliefs in class and wrote about them as well. And yet she's being told she must change her core beliefs that are based on her religion or be expelled from a PUBLIC university program.
I see it exactly the other way around - if it were a private university they could do as they please, not be concerned about accreditation nor about making sure that no one is excluded from any benefits that are partially maid for out of taxpayer funds.
Quote:
Irene Ametrano, a professor of counseling at Eastern Michigan, said that she was pleased the judge had seen that the issue was not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.

"This isn't about the thought police," she said. "This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling." She noted that the university's policies were consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association and said that Eastern Michigan's counseling program couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.
I don't see this so much as anyone infringing on Ms Ward's religious freedom, as FOX would like so much to portray it. This is more about an individual who wants to pick and choose who she counsels based on her own private beliefs. It's not acceptable according to the ethics code of the American Counseling Association and Ms Ward knew going into the program that she would have to actually counsel people in order to get her degree. She did in fact refuse to counsel someone - she ditched a client two hours before the appointment because she didn't feel like counseling that individual and dumped that client on another student.
Quote:
Ametrano, the Eastern Michigan professor, who was on the review panel that expelled Ward, said that the requirements that counselors work with clients of a range of views and background are essential. She noted that counselors regularly work with clients who make decisions about such matters as birth control, sex, drug use, abortion and many other choices that a counselor may or may not support. And clients come from a variety of backgrounds and sexual orientations. A counselor can't be effective, she said, with litmus tests on who may be helped.

Further, she said that the ethics code is designed in part because Eastern Michigan is training counselors who will work in schools, colleges and social service agencies where referrals aren't possible. So the ability to help anyone, and to do so in a way that "is consistent with client values," is an important, relevant skill as determined by the profession.

"Are you going to refer away half of your clients because you can't reconcile your own issues with the client's value system? We want students to reconcile their biases" and their work, she said. "Being nonjudgmental is a central part of how we work."
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2.../28/counseling

This looks to me to be a case of someone wanting to re-write the job rules to suit themselves and then cry about not getting their way. And of course FOX news is right there selling the "poor poor Christians" angle.

And yes, if her God is more important than perhaps she can pursue a career in her church - not that that will help her avoid dealing with homosexuals.
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post #18 of 24
7/31/10 at 6:27pm
Quote:
No, I wasn't. It seems I hear "God says" and "Jesus says" quite regularly. So, what do they say about what is happening in the world right now. Do they condemn BP as a company, or just the CEO, or are they just writing it off as an unfortunate accident and it'll all be better someday?
God shakes his head and cries over the destruction of His creation. However, He has given humans the ability to think and reason and to build. He has given us the resources to overcome this situation and it will get better, but it will not be like it was prior to the leak.

Regarding the CEO, God could claim him as one of His own; we don't know. It's not like the CEO is directly responsible for causing the leak. It was a mechanical malfunction. However, we live in a fallen world that's full of imperfections and God has allowed Satan free reign on the earth until Jesus comes back. Then there we will all face judgement and those who do not proclaim Jesus as Lord and whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast away forever into the pit of hell.
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post #19 of 24
7/31/10 at 8:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanietx View Post
God shakes his head and cries over the destruction of His creation. However, He has given humans the ability to think and reason and to build. He has given us the resources to overcome this situation and it will get better, but it will not be like it was prior to the leak.

Regarding the CEO, God could claim him as one of His own; we don't know. It's not like the CEO is directly responsible for causing the leak. It was a mechanical malfunction. However, we live in a fallen world that's full of imperfections and God has allowed Satan free reign on the earth until Jesus comes back. Then there we will all face judgement and those who do not proclaim Jesus as Lord and whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast away forever into the pit of hell.
How do we know he's shaking his head and crying, but don't know what he thinks of current events?
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post #20 of 24
8/4/10 at 4:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
I see it exactly the other way around - if it were a private university they could do as they please, not be concerned about accreditation nor about making sure that no one is excluded from any benefits that are partially maid for out of taxpayer funds.

I don't see this so much as anyone infringing on Ms Ward's religious freedom, as FOX would like so much to portray it. This is more about an individual who wants to pick and choose who she counsels based on her own private beliefs. It's not acceptable according to the ethics code of the American Counseling Association and Ms Ward knew going into the program that she would have to actually counsel people in order to get her degree. She did in fact refuse to counsel someone - she ditched a client two hours before the appointment because she didn't feel like counseling that individual and dumped that client on another student.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2.../28/counseling

This looks to me to be a case of someone wanting to re-write the job rules to suit themselves and then cry about not getting their way. And of course FOX news is right there selling the "poor poor Christians" angle.

And yes, if her God is more important than perhaps she can pursue a career in her church - not that that will help her avoid dealing with homosexuals.

I love your post...This is what I was thinking but couldnt put into words. My counselor at Gaudenzia was the biggest blatent Christian there and we butted heads non stop thru 6 mths of sessions and no matter what she believed or I believed she had to counsel me regardless of my religious or non religious views and she has to do that will all her clients that she doesnt agree with. She had even told me, its part of her job to be able to put aside her beliefs and help the client who is there, if she put her beliefs first she would not be a good counselor then what would be the point of her being in that field of work. While I never agreed with her beliefs and she didnt agree with mine, she still worked her butt off to give me the tools and advice I needed to get clean and stay sober..Even if she did try and push me into believing in God.
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post #21 of 24
8/4/10 at 10:25am
The student needed to either pick a new major, or actually practice Christianity and show tolerance and not judge others. Can't have it both ways.

I agree with 3CatsN1Dog & 2dogmom.
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post #22 of 24
8/7/10 at 4:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampWitch View Post
The student needed to either pick a new major, or actually practice Christianity and show tolerance and not judge others. Can't have it both ways.

I agree with 3CatsN1Dog & 2dogmom.



It has been my experience that many would be "christians" want to pick and choose from the Bible, taking the parts they agree with and running with it. They tend to forget the "love one another" parts.

I was raised Methodist, but I do not consider myself Christian by any stretch of the imagination.
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post #23 of 24
8/7/10 at 5:32am
Was she REALLY expelled because of her beliefs???

yea right that's only the message FOX is trying to convey; there is SO much bias in this article. The simple fact is...
Quote:
The university contended she violated school policy and the American Counseling Association code of ethics.
There was nothing in the article to support any claims that the university had issues with her beliefs, and I am sure the university accepts her beliefs just fine, even if they do not agree with them. It's only when she violates their policy, and it could have been violated for another reason, not just her Christian beliefs- that they decided to expel her. Makes perfect sense to me.

If this is putting her career before her God, well then do you think they should also allow christian students to get degrees in biology without the required biology courses, because it goes against their beliefs; and they shouldn't put their school and their careers before God, but evolution is taught at every single public college biology class?
My views are, if your career and your religious beliefs don't mix well together, you should either choose another career, or go to a religious college which is always an option for Christians since so many of them are out there.
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post #24 of 24
8/9/10 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
Isaiah chapter 5 where it says the day will come when people will call good evil and evil good. Also the Bible says in Romans 1:25 that the day will come when people will exchange the truth for lie. I think we are living in that day.

Could the preaching of "Prosperity Theology" be that reversal of good and evil. See: camel, needle...eye of.

Could the mass murder torture of people in Iraq because George W Bush "Answers to a higher father" be a case of what's evil being seen as good?

Could the persecution of people because of their orientation be that reversal of good and evil?

What does taking the name of the father in vain mean? Is it saying "Oh Jesus" or is it using god to get elected to public office?

Who were the false phrophets in the bible? The ones who twisted the word of god to their own purposes? The Philistines? The Falwels? Could their preaching be what is evil that is being called good?

That evil as good thing is open to a lot of interpretation. Like Nostradamus.
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