Crystals and food

I have a problem that even the vet can't figure out, and I DO trust this vet. I have one cat who had a severe blockage about a year ago. He had crystals and bladder stones, and after surgery, 2 weeks hospitalized (he also had a torn urethra), several months of antibiotics, and a diet change, he's been perfectly fine. One huge reason why I trust this vet is that they went above and beyond to help this cat out. When they first opened him up for surgery, they said it was the worst case of stones and an infection that they had ever seen. He also had urine in his abdomen, which indicated the urethra tear. They gave him less than a 1% chance of survival, and asked if I wanted him to be euthanized while he was already under anesthesia. I said no because I wanted to talk to my husband first, and in the 2 hours that it took to get in touch with my husband, the vet had called back telling me she had called a specialist and had looked up several case studies, and he now had about a 20% chance of survival. From there - the good news just increased. So basically, I know this vet will go out of her way to do whatever it takes to save an animal, and based on that, I'm completely confident that she knows what she is doing, and will admit when she doesn't (she admitted that there was nothing she could personally do for my cat when she had him in surgery and figured out how bad everything was).

Anyway, ever since he got so sick, he's been eating Royal Canin Urinary SO food. He'e been doing just fine. I have 9 other cats, and they all eat the SO food because of him, and because most of mine are males, and since its healthy for all of them, we thought it would also be a good preventative measure for something like this happening again.

So last week I took 2 of my cats in for a checkup and vaccines. They ran a full blood and urine panel on both of them and had the samples sent off to a lab. When they got the lab results back, Sheena's were perfect, but Oreo's indicated that he had crystals in his urine. He's not having any urinary problems that I can tell, but the vet said that its likely that it can become a problem.

But now, we're both confused. Technically since Oreo has been eating the SO food, he shouldnt have crystals. She told me that we can switch him to Hill's Prescription Diet for crystals and see if that helps, but I don't want to switch my other cat because he is doing wonderfully on the Royal Canin food.At the moment Oreo doesn't appear to be in any kind of trouble with the crystals, though the reason my other cat got so sick is because he was acting fine. Absolutely fine, until the day he almost died, so clearly cats are good at hiding even life threatening problems.

So I guess my question is - has anyone had a cat eating a prescription food meant to prevent crystals and still had their cat end up with crystals? The vet and I are talking through this, and I'm trying to do some of my own research before she special orders the other food (they sell Royal Canin at this office and nothing else, but they special order other foods when needed). I guess i can ultimately feed them 2 different foods, which will be difficult with the amount of cats that I have, but I can make it work. I'm just confused as to why Oreo is eating food meant to dissolve crystals, yet he still has crystals. So...has anyone dealt with this before?

Yup. My Muddy has chronic bladder issues, is on a prescription diet, and still got crystals from time to time.

Muddy has idiopathic cystitis, which basically means cystitis of unknown origin. When he is under stress (and in a large cat household, there is always some level of stress), his bladder gets inflamed, his PH gets off balance, and he either gets a UTI or crystals.

It took us a long time to diagnose his condition. First an x-ray, then ultrasound, then a surgical biopsy. He's blocked a couple times, and each time was when something stressful happened in the household.

Muddy has stabilized since we put him on an anti-inflamatory (prednisone) permanently. He's been on them for about 2 years now with no adverse affect from the medication and he hasn't blocked since he started to take them.

Muddy gets prescription dry food (Science Diet C/D), and a can of prescription wet (Purina UR) each day. He eats a little bit of regular canned food each day and that doesn't seem to bother him, as long as I stay 100% clear of anything with fish in it.

Diet alone doesn't help all bladder based illnesses. You may need to start running more extensive tests on your boy to find the root cause of his issue.

Good luck!

Thanks. That's all really interesting, because Oreo is definitely my most stressed cat. I agree that in a multi-cat household, there will always be some stress, but he is the one that is bullied and picked on the most. Its nothing constant, but for some reason, if one of the other cats is looking for a fight they'll find Oreo. So while I can't read his mind obviously, I would assume that could lead to some stress for him!

I haven't mentioned his stress level to the vet because it never occurred to me that it might be connected, but now I'll definitely bring it up to her. The only thing that wouldn't make sense is that you mentioned that your cat's PH gets off balance, but Oreo's PH was completely normal when she ran all of this lab work on him. But still, I'll mention this to her and see if we can figure out NOW what's going on with him, instead of switching foods around, and trying random different things first. When my other cat had his bladder stones and blockage, he was so close to dying, even after he was unblocked that even the idea of crystals and blockages scare me now! So for that reason, I think I might just tell the vet to run any tests on him - basically just go all out to figure out whats wrong.

I'm just hoping that this doesn't lead to a blockage right now. I've been stalking the poor thing to the litter box every time he goes near it because I want to make sure he's still urinating. He keeps giving me these sad looks that seem to say "Really? Are you really going to just stand there and watch me again?"

You want to ask your vet about putting him on cosequin for cats in addition to the SO. The cosequin will help keep the lining of the bladder smooth so things (like crystals) don't stick. (that is only my unscientific understanding of how it works)

In addition you will want to find a way to get more water into him. Either by adding the canned SO to his diet, or investing in a fountain to encourage more drinking, he needs more fluids to keep him flushed out.

I can't say anything bad about Hill's C/D wet and dry. Boo had the crystal blockage and was put on it and then had his P/U surgery too and both of those things seemed to put an end to the issue. Has your boy had a P/U surgery? (Perineal Urethrostomy?) It's probably the last route most would want to go but I was told if I decided not to do it, he'd just keep blocking and keep blocking :T

My little guy that has issues with crystals was on a few different prescription foods (Royal Canin as well as Hills) and none of them really worked that great for him- he still had issues. We experimented a little bit and found that the ProPlan Urinary is working for him. I'm not sure why the others didnt work but this one does but as long as it is working thats all I care!!!! I feed a mixture of the dry and wet and also mix in water so he's getting enough fluids. So far has worked like a charm.

Adding water to his diet as well as investing in a fountain (which he LOVES) have helped tremendously.

And yes.......I do think that stress plays a big role- he is my stressed kitty as well.
Perhaps if you put some of those phermone plug in things around the house it may help???

Originally Posted by Snickerdoodle

I can't say anything bad about Hill's C/D wet and dry. Boo had the crystal blockage and was put on it and then had his P/U surgery too and both of those things seemed to put an end to the issue. Has your boy had a P/U surgery? (Perineal Urethrostomy?) It's probably the last route most would want to go but I was told if I decided not to do it, he'd just keep blocking and keep blocking :T

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I prefer the Hills c/d to the Royal Canin SO, too. In all fairness I have not used the SO but did a lot of research and I like the numbers of the Hills Prescription better. I do have a friend with a kitty on Royal Canin because he won't eat the Hills, and he (had surgery to remove stones twice) is doing very well on it.

Originally Posted by cmedeiros17

My little guy that has issues with crystals was on a few different prescription foods (Royal Canin as well as Hills) and none of them really worked that great for him- he still had issues. We experimented a little bit and found that the ProPlan Urinary is working for him. I'm not sure why the others didnt work but this one does but as long as it is working thats all I care!!!! I feed a mixture of the dry and wet and also mix in water so he's getting enough fluids. So far has worked like a charm.

Adding water to his diet as well as investing in a fountain (which he LOVES) have helped tremendously.

And yes.......I do think that stress plays a big role- he is my stressed kitty as well.
Perhaps if you put some of those phermone plug in things around the house it may help???

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I'm glad you have a found a food that is working for your little guy. It's good there are as many choices as their are.

You make an excellent point about stress. I second the recommendation that feliway plug in diffusers be used to help reduce stress if that is part of kitty's problem.

PS I have just ordered a fountain for Mazy cat. It's a "raindrop" design, stainless steel. I hope once she gets used to it, it will help her drink more water, she does not drink nearly enough for my comfort.

Otto.. can you link the new bowl you got? A few of us have been looking for stainless fountains

Thanks everyone. Its good to hear everyone's experiences because when I go talk to the vet on Monday I have some things to ask her about specifically now.

To answer questions though (and I'm writing this fast so I hope I cover everything):

No none of my cats have had the P/U surgery. The cat that has crystals now has never had them before (that I know of) and has never had a blockage. For him, we're trying to combat the problem before it actually becomes a problem. My cat that was really sick about 7 months ago, also didn't have the surgery because he was soooo sick and not doing well at all. He had the bladder surgery, which cleared out the stones, but he also had a torn urethra, and that caused them to say they will wait on the surgery for him. He wasn't going to live if he had urine leaking into his abdomen, so their first concern was to get that tear to heal. He stayed in the hospital for about 2 weeks hooked up to a catheter, and then once that was better, he spent several months on anti-biotics because the bladder infection was just not going away. So basically, he had too much going on, and the vet was hopeful that with his new diet, and my awareness of the problem (I do pay attention to my cats, but I have 10 of them and I never realized that he wasn't using the litter box. He was playing and seemed fine until the day that he almost died, so now I am hyper aware that this could happen again so I spend a lot of time following him to the litter box), that we wouldn't need the surgery. But because of how bad he was, if it happens again, then he'll definitely be getting the P/U surgery.

I do already have a fountain for them - 2 fountains actually, and he seems to drink a lot of water but I think I'm going to add some canned food to their diets too. Everyone seemed to be doing fine on the dry SO, but I'm going to pick up some cans of it to see if that helps too.

We also have 5 feliways plugged into various rooms in the house, and they DO work and they DO keep the stress level down. I am always tempted to say that they don't work, because there is always some tension in the house, but when they run out, I can tell. I basically get a house of psycho cats, and every time that happens I say "Has the Feliway run out?" and every time, it has.

So its looking like a possible diet change and the cosequin is what I am going to talk to the vet about on Monday. My biggest concern is switching my other cat who is doing great on the SO food. It was working out so well with everyone eating the exact same food, but I knew that had to be too good to last.

Originally Posted by sharky

Otto.. can you link the new bowl you got? A few of us have been looking for stainless fountains

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I started a new thread so more will see:

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...97#post2905897

Originally Posted by Brooklet425

Thanks everyone. Its good to hear everyone's experiences because when I go talk to the vet on Monday I have some things to ask her about specifically now.

To answer questions though (and I'm writing this fast so I hope I cover everything):

No none of my cats have had the P/U surgery. The cat that has crystals now has never had them before (that I know of) and has never had a blockage. For him, we're trying to combat the problem before it actually becomes a problem. My cat that was really sick about 7 months ago, also didn't have the surgery because he was soooo sick and not doing well at all. He had the bladder surgery, which cleared out the stones, but he also had a torn urethra, and that caused them to say they will wait on the surgery for him. He wasn't going to live if he had urine leaking into his abdomen, so their first concern was to get that tear to heal. He stayed in the hospital for about 2 weeks hooked up to a catheter, and then once that was better, he spent several months on anti-biotics because the bladder infection was just not going away. So basically, he had too much going on, and the vet was hopeful that with his new diet, and my awareness of the problem (I do pay attention to my cats, but I have 10 of them and I never realized that he wasn't using the litter box. He was playing and seemed fine until the day that he almost died, so now I am hyper aware that this could happen again so I spend a lot of time following him to the litter box), that we wouldn't need the surgery. But because of how bad he was, if it happens again, then he'll definitely be getting the P/U surgery.

I do already have a fountain for them - 2 fountains actually, and he seems to drink a lot of water but I think I'm going to add some canned food to their diets too. Everyone seemed to be doing fine on the dry SO, but I'm going to pick up some cans of it to see if that helps too.

We also have 5 feliways plugged into various rooms in the house, and they DO work and they DO keep the stress level down. I am always tempted to say that they don't work, because there is always some tension in the house, but when they run out, I can tell. I basically get a house of psycho cats, and every time that happens I say "Has the Feliway run out?" and every time, it has.

So its looking like a possible diet change and the cosequin is what I am going to talk to the vet about on Monday. My biggest concern is switching my other cat who is doing great on the SO food. It was working out so well with everyone eating the exact same food, but I knew that had to be too good to last.

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Adding some canned food to his diet may help.

I am confused as to what you mean about everyone eating the same food being too good to last. Aren't you continuing to keep them all on the SO? But just adding some canned to their diet? If you are wanting to add the canned food to only the one cat, that is certainly doable. You just feed the canned food to him separately. Sneak him into a bathroom with the canned food and shut the door until he finishes.

Cosequin can just be sprinkled over his canned food, or mixed into it. Mazy gets cosequin every day, sprinkled over her c/d kibble. I just put a couple drops of water in the dish and swish it all around so the cosequin sticks to the kibble. She won't eat her kibble with more than a couple of drops of water added. I've never worried so much about a cat getting enough water as I do with Mazy, she's a very poor drinker and won't eat the canned c/d. I do hope the fountain helps.

Originally Posted by otto

I am confused as to what you mean about everyone eating the same food being too good to last. Aren't you continuing to keep them all on the SO? But just adding some canned to their diet? If you are wanting to add the canned food to only the one cat, that is certainly doable. You just feed the canned food to him separately. Sneak him into a bathroom with the canned food and shut the door until he finishes.

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Sorry for being confusing. Yes, as of right now, everyone is staying on the SO, and I'll add some wet food into their diet. I was just referring to switching the one cat to the C/D if that's what ends up being recommended to me by the vet. I'm hoping that they can all ultimately stay on the SO because I don't want to take the one cat off of it, because he's doing so well on it. But I've tried to separate the cats before to eat, and I'm amazed at how stubborn they can be. I've had to lock a cat in the bathroom before to eat certain food (usually food that had medicine mixed in with it, or a kitten eating kitten food that the adults shouldn't be eating) and I've actually had no luck with ANY cat doing this. They just cry and howl at the bathroom door until I let them out, and they refuse to eat what I put in there for them. I've even sat in the bathroom with them, and they still refuse to eat. But as soon as I let them out, you can bet they'll be running straight to the food they aren't supposed to eat! I've never had to separate Oreo for anything before though, so maybe he'll be different. So that's what I was referring to. I kind of dread trying to make one cat eat by himself, just based on prior experience. But who knows...maybe he can continue to eat the SO, and if he can't, maybe he won't care that he's locked in a bathroom.

Oh I see now. Thanks for explaining. I was thinking afterward that a cat not used to being shut up to eat might be bothered by it at first, but could get used to it, if it was only for the one special meal a day. Or you could just sit by him and be the dreaded Cat Food Police during his canned meal.

Or of course put them all on some canned every day (or pouches, I think RC has chunks in gravy pouches too), if it is feasible to your budget.

Or...if worse comes to worst, put them all on c/d instead. some headache, eh?

Originally Posted by otto

You want to ask your vet about putting him on cosequin for cats in addition to the SO. The cosequin will help keep the lining of the bladder smooth so things (like crystals) don't stick. (that is only my unscientific understanding of how it works)

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I took Muddy to a cat specialist at one point in time and she told me that cosequin actually doesn't help bladder issues at all. The original study for cosequin was not a controlled test. People that put their cats on cosequin also changed their food to prescription at the same time, and therefore the occurance of issues decreased for those cats. In a more recent study, they put in the additional control of not switching foods, and proved that cosequin did absolutely nothing to help this condition.

Cosequin has its uses, but not for bladder health. Most vets haven't read the latest study and still push cosequin on their patients. It's a waste of money, and only adds stress to a cat that doesn't like to be medicated.

I tried to find the recent study online so that I could link to it and can't find it. The cat specialist that told me this was one that was fairly fresh out of med school so had more recent education on the topic. I hesitated when I heard her say this, but then heard it confirmed by the senior vets at this clinic, so I do take it for the truth.

I've heard that before, and do not agree.

I've also read that cosequin doesn't do anything for cats suffering from arthritis, however I disagree with that too, having seen first hand what cosequin for cats can do for cats suffering mild to moderate arthritis.

I don't think keeping Mazy on cosequin for cats is a waste of money. She is worth the $14 every 2 1/2 months, nor does it cause her any stress, it is sprinkled on her food. Since it works for us I will continue to advise people to talk to their vets about adding cosequin for cats to a FLUTD cat's daily regimen.

Nothing works for every single cat. But cosequin for cats is worth a try Especially is severe cases, and especially in males where the risk of fatality from blockage is great.

Brooklet, we went through issues with crystals with our original three boys, all of whom blocked, two of whom had to be catheterized twice, and one of which required surgery to remove crystals embedded in his bladder wall. Two had struvite crystals, one had calcium oxalate crystals.

We switched everyone to Hill's CD. They ate dry food almost exclusively, because they really didn't like wet food much. We had (at the time) five cats, and we just switched them all to CD so we could continue to free feed. We went through various wet foods to find what they liked, and worked in one wet meal a day, though it was more of a snack.

It was on a discussion here at TCS somewhere when I read a question by someone wondering if it was true that the "worst" wet food is better than "the best" dry food for a cat. While there's differing opinions on this, the point is that when it comes to bladder and urinary tract health, the more dilute you keep the urine, the less likely it is there will be problems.

We now feed the cats three meals of wet food a day. We use the Hills CD wet. We mix a little bit of water into it, and then top it with one pouch of Friskies as a "topper" - the one pouch is split between seven bowls of food, so really it adds taste more than anything.

We also put water dishes out EVERYWHERE, and we found room for a fountain (even though we live in an RV). For the health of their teeth, we add Food Grade Hydrogen Peroxide (1 1/2 teaspoons to one gallon of water) to their water - it gives it a fresh taste, and we noticed that they drank more water when we began this practice.

We have to clean the boxes more often because they pee more often LOL.

We just recently rescued another kitty. While separated from our crew, when we began caring for him, we started him on five wet meals a day, each one with water added. We let him free feed on dry - but because we were giving him so much wet food, he didn't eat much dry. He pees at least four times a day, and pretty big pees.

Our pariah kitty (the one everyone picks on and that is easily stressed - Spooky (her name says it all LOL)) has developed idiopathic cystitis. It doesn't flare often, but when it does we use Bach's Rescue Remedy on her, we give her lots of extra attention, and she usually has a round of antibiotics (sorry, don't remember the name), but they act as an anti-inflammatory to soothe her bladder wall. It usually resolves within a week to 10 days.

Because we now have 8 living in an RV, we use Feliway. We've found it to be most effective two weeks on and one week off.

I share this with you to help you decide what to do going forward. But whenever there are issues with crystals, the best thing you can do is focusing on getting that urine as dilute as possible.

and good luck!