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I'm so sad...we have to return Vivian to the SPCA  

post #1 of 37
7/5/10 at 7:27pm
Thread Starter 
Hi everyone,

I am so sad about this I am typing through tears. Vivian, our newest cat we got almost 6 weeks ago, well she went way too far with her abuse to one of our other two cats. I was in the kitchen this afternoon and I heard a loud scream and ran upstairs and followed the blood trail to the bathtub. Vivian had scratched poor Brie right across the face next to her eye and sliced her ear. I had a major panic attack and it truly looked like a crime scene in my bathroom but I managed to grab the phone, call the vet and tell them I was coming in with a cat emergency, and get Brie in her carrier and get her to the vet. Thank God the bleeding stopped and she didn't need stitches but Vivian really scratched her hard to the point she sliced Brie's ear!! The vet gave Brie a shot of an antibiotic and a solution for me to put on her face and ear and Brie is resting comfortably now. I have Vivian in my office with me and Brie and Annie in our bedroom. I will not expose my two cats to Vivian's meanness and attacks again. They have been through the ringer and they are both nervous, depressed, and they look miserable.

We are taking Vivian back to the SPCA tomorrow as soon as they open. I am so stressed out and sad about this but it has been pure stress in this house since Vivian entered our lives. It is a shame as she is a loving, friendly cat to us, but she is very mean to our other two cats.

I separated Vivian but she kept getting out. She opened the bedroom door the first time (don't know how but she really did!), so we used two baby gates and she climbed up and got out of that set up so we just left her out and watched them but I would go downstairs to do something and not be able to watch constantly and Brie and Annie would come flying down to the kitchen scared. They hide from Vivian yet she will go where they are and swat them, try to bite them, pounce them, etc. She would do best in a home with no other cats and I really wish the rescue group would have been able to tell us this as now we are left with broken hearts as we truly don't want to take her back but I am NOT willing to putting my other two cats at risk anymore! I gave it my best shot, I am a nervous wreck over this and losing sleep and just stressed out.

Tomorrow will be hard...saying goodbye to someone you love be it human or animal is never easy. I really wish this would have worked out and I pray Vivian finds a good home with people that love her and that treat her well.

Thanks for all the help during this past 6 weeks...I appreciate it!
Vivvie
post #2 of 37
7/5/10 at 8:35pm
You do realize, taking her back to the SPCA will be a death sentence for her. I just want you to be fully aware of that, so that if there are any other options or routes you can go, please look into them.

I noticed in reading back in your threads, that you just put her with your other 2 girls when you got her. Most all cats will need a slow intro phase. I know your first 2 didn't, they are the exception and not the rule. Since there were negative responses from the very beginning of their meeting, the relationships needed to be repaired with positive reinforcement along with slow intros.

When cats fight, they always seem to be A LOT worse than they usually are, but they can be upsetting, just the same.

If you are willing to keep her, separate her, use positive reinforcement techniques to reintroduce them, just say so and you will get a list of things to do to help them get along.

If not, then you can go onto petfinder.org, put your zip code on the left side to get a list of local rescue groups that usually have resources who can foster. But it is a very hard time for many animals right now.

I understand how frustrated you would be seeing your other girl bleeding, but it is something, with work and patience that can be worked out.
I hate to see a kitty that has had such a hard life not given anymore opportunities.

I would weigh heavily taking her in tomorrow, seriously. Maybe some others can give you some advice on rehoming her without taking her back to the SPCA. If you can just give it one more day. Being in a room by herself is a lot better than what she will face there.
post #3 of 37
7/5/10 at 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pami View Post
You do realize, taking her back to the SPCA will be a death sentence for her. I just want you to be fully aware of that, so that if there are any other options or routes you can go, please look into them.

I noticed in reading back in your threads, that you just put her with your other 2 girls when you got her. Most all cats will need a slow intro phase. I know your first 2 didn't, they are the exception and not the rule. Since there were negative responses from the very beginning of their meeting, the relationships needed to be repaired with positive reinforcement along with slow intros.

When cats fight, they always seem to be A LOT worse than they usually are, but they can be upsetting, just the same.

If you are willing to keep her, separate her, use positive reinforcement techniques to reintroduce them, just say so and you will get a list of things to do to help them get along.

If not, then you can go onto petfinder.org, put your zip code on the left side to get a list of local rescue groups that usually have resources who can foster. But it is a very hard time for many animals right now.

I understand how frustrated you would be seeing your other girl bleeding, but it is something, with work and patience that can be worked out.
I hate to see a kitty that has had such a hard life not given anymore opportunities.

I would weigh heavily taking her in tomorrow, seriously. Maybe some others can give you some advice on rehoming her without taking her back to the SPCA. If you can just give it one more day. Being in a room by herself is a lot better than what she will face there.

Please please do not take her back... she will be put down, that will be a death sentence for her...
I hope you can try a slow intro again... if she is a sweet cat, I am sure things can be worked out with her... If you can't please try to find a home for her on you own... do not take her back...
post #4 of 37
7/6/10 at 5:12pm
What did you decide?
post #5 of 37
7/7/10 at 1:21am
Thread Starter 
Thank you so much Pami and Carolina for your replies, I appreciate it!

I could not take her back...I didn't sleep that night as I was broken hearted so my husband and I decided to keep her and she is now in our office and we are in here a lot so she isn't lonely. I do not like confining her...it makes me nuts having to lock her in this room but I have to as I cannot risk her hurting one of the other girls again.

Now the SPCA we got Vivvie from says they are a 'no kill' place...do you think they are not being honest about that? I assumed they kept the animals until they found homes for them. They have both dogs and cats there. They are our local SPCA. I would have never considered taking her back had I thought they would put her down. We got our first two cats from a local cat rescue group and if I ever adopt a cat again in the future (I would love to have more cats but have no plans to adopt more in the near future as we have a lot to work out here with Vivvie)...but if I do adopt again I would not go back to the SPCA. They keep the animals in cages and they don't socialize them and the cat rescue group has their cats living in foster homes, in their facility out of cages, and they tell you if the particular cat gets along with other cats. But then again...the poor animals at the SPCA need a home too so I don't know what I would do really.

We are planning on moving Vivian into our guest bedroom which is across the hall from our office as we are in and out of this office so much it is hard to keep trying to enter or exit as Vivvie tries to run out and the other girls are wandering around outside the office and I am afraid of any interaction with them all at this time. I feel terrible having to confine her...I am NOT a believer in confining animals so this will be hard BUT it sure is better for her here than it would be back at the SPCA in a cage.

WOW we have been through a rough ride and my emotions are all over the place but we are keeping Vivvie forever...my heart could not take her back. I love her and my husband and daughter do too.

So what should I do about this situation with Vivvie? How do I reintroduce them? I tried this once and it didn't work but I realize I didn't give it nearly enough time but Vivvie escaped the room so now my husband is going to put a lock on the door so she cannot open it again.

I am going to attach a pic of Vivian.

Thank you for being here!!
Vivvie

post #6 of 37
7/7/10 at 2:22am
Whenever I introduced a new cat (I currently have 10 cats), I have found that there are usually several hissing and spitting matches, occasionally the fur flies until "pack order" is established. With some cats it takes longer, others settle very quickly.

One thing you could try is to get something your other two girls have slept on and put it with Vivien, something she has slept on and put it with your girls. That way, they pick up the scent of the other cat and it makes introductions easier.

I have also found, the less human interference the better.

Don't forget animals pick up how we feel very quickly, so if we are nervous they will pick up on that and it will make them nervous too.

It could also be that Vivien is the one who is frightened and is attacking out of fear. It's fight or flight syndrome.

I'm so glad you have decided to keep her. You could also try a Feliway plug-in diffuser. These are very good and they work extremely well in calming cats down.

I really hope everything works out for you.
post #7 of 37
7/7/10 at 3:07am
I am so glad to see you have changed your mind.

What I have done in the past is put up one of those inexpensive wood screen doors on our extra bedroom. So easy to put up...just some screws and a driver. You can paint them any color you want, and I even painted little black paw prints on the wood part. This way, it is not unsightly.

Then the cats can acclimate to eachother safely. Leave a bit of room on the bottom for paws to play back and forth. I tied a length of twine with spools on either end. Put that under the door and they would tug of war back and forth.

It may take months, but your kitty will not be shut off, yet she will be prevented from hurting any of her house mates.

Use feliway diffusers, exchange sleeping materials, feed on both sides of the door at the same time.

I hope some of these things work for you. Make sure screen is secure. We would always replace the screening that comes with the door with clawproof.

You have such good hearts.....
post #8 of 37
7/7/10 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivvie View Post
Now the SPCA we got Vivvie from says they are a 'no kill' place...do you think they are not being honest about that? I assumed they kept the animals until they found homes for them.
Many people don't realize how a "no-kill" shelter works. Basically, "no-kill" as a term is quite meaningless. There are "no-kill" shelters out there who have much higher kill rates than other shelters that do not consider themselves to be "no-kill". At least they're honest about it. The term only means that the shelter won't kill animals for space reasons. If an animal is for any reason "unadoptable" (and sometimes this is for reasons such as color or size, not actual behavioral problems), then it will be killed. Even the best "no-kill" shelter will have around a 50%-75% kill rate with cats. Dogs usually fare better. But a cat returned for not getting along with other cats WILL be killed, returns almost always are. For some reason it's much harder to adopt out an animal that's been returned before, no matter what the reason for the return might have been. Any return is a death sentence.

The only really no-kill places out there are true sanctuaries, where the animals can live out their lives regardless of temperment. But for actual shelters who are trying to adopt animals into homes, being unadoptable is a death sentence, whether the shelter claims to be no-kill or not.

I'm glad to hear that you've decided to keep her and work on this. She may always live in your office (I have a cat that lives alone in the bedroom), or maybe later on you can try introductions again.
post #9 of 37
7/7/10 at 4:01pm
Oh, thank God you didn't return her! Thank you thank you thank you!
Yes, you will need to reintroduce them again, slowly, but it can be done, and it can work, please don't give up!

Here is some good information to read:
http://www.thecatsite.com/Behavior/49/Id-like-you-to-Meet...-Introducing-Cats.html

http://www.thecatsite.com/Behavior/49/Id-like-you-to-Meet...-Introducing-Cats/2.html

I would definitely invest in a couple of Feliway diffusers - one for her room, and another for the room where the resident cat hangs out the most. I buy mine at Amazon, as it has the best prices available... If you buy it at the store it is almost double of the price.

Please be patient, and play it by ear - some cats get to one another quickly, some take a long time... The right introduction can dictate a lifetime of good or bad relationship.

Good Luck!
post #10 of 37
7/7/10 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
But a cat returned for not getting along with other cats WILL be killed, returns almost always are. For some reason it's much harder to adopt out an animal that's been returned before, no matter what the reason for the return might have been. Any return is a death sentence.

Okay, I have to ask on what do you base this statement? I am not saying it’s false but I would just like to know on what kind of data is it based?

I am personally deeply traumatized on this ‘return’ issue, and have great empathy for people who are struggling with this issue. I am so happy to hear the OP has decided to work with Vivian. My personal experience is very limited, and while I am inclined to agree with you that any animal that gets returned is at great danger, I also have to stand up for those people who are trying to keep the rest of their families safe and sane.

Sometimes terrible decisions have to be made, and sometimes one has to weigh the options – and maybe it doesn’t need to be one cat’s life vs several cats’ quality of life and health. I do not think guilt-tripping is the greatest way to go here. Of course it’s worth knowing the reality, so one can look for alternatives.

I have been in situation where I have adopted into multi-cat family and it went badly. I made sure I adopted from a place that wanted the adoption to go well and was ok with returns. My resident cats’ quality of life was very important to me and this thing about the rescue was crucial. I admire people here who have never refused a cat. I envy people who have never had to return a cat because I am still trying to overcome the experience (we worked for months trying to avoid it).

When we had to return our beautiful boy, we provided detailed information what kind of trouble we had with him in hopes it would help him find a more suitable home where he would be happy – and he got immediately re-adopted. Our other cats were again able to walk in peace.

I really do hope people would work hard with the introduction/integration process but I also wish that if someone in their right mind comes to the conclusion that 20 years of unhappiness or even worse is coming out of keeping a particular pet, then other solutions might exist. If the shelter/rescue you got the animal from is going to put the animal down, then the right thing is to look for a new home other ways.

Not all problems with new cats are something that make them non-adoptable either. Be careful how you phrase things too when reporting issues. At least locally it is extremely common to see cats labeled as ‘only cats’ – rather than bullies!
post #11 of 37
7/7/10 at 4:56pm
Kasey's story is in the My Cats" at the header of my post, she is my rescue tortie and her story is there if you click on her picture.

Kasey had a lot of strikes against her and it was a gamble bringing her home.

Colour isn't a breed and all torties may not have tortitude but Kasey got a good supply. Kasey was an only cat where she lived, sometimes abused including people encouraging their dogs to attack her. She was about 8 years old when I brought her home.

In spite of all that, she loves nice human attention.

She was tough on Taz and Morgan even after the separation process, It used to be I would never leave her unattended with the other cats. It seemed like things would never stabilize.

It has taken some time but today I can leave them all together without issues, they eat their Temptations treats together etc.
post #12 of 37
7/7/10 at 9:36pm
I have a cat who lives strictly in my office. Granted, it's like 700-800 sq ft + windows/cat furniture/etc. She's not a particularly nice creature, but doesn't mean she deserves any less. I named her Ophelia Rose, Ophelia because it was clear she was a "drama queen" & Rose in case she turned out to be nice. Never needed to use the Rose part of her name yet!

Some cats just do not do well with others. Some take a very long time to adjust.

I'd start by keeping them seperate 24/7. In a week or so, start switching out blankets between her & your resident cats. After a week of scent swapping, perhaps then plug in Feliway diffusers for 2-3 days. After that, then maybe try to start the re-introduction process.
post #13 of 37
7/8/10 at 12:57am
Our no-kill is most certainly not. They claim an animal is aggressive to have an 'excuse' to put them down. There was a big issue after a dog was put down because they claimed she was a aggressive. I highly doubt a SERVICE DOG was aggressive(for some reason her chip didn't scan and her collar was off for a bath or something like that.) They are really bad about that for some reason.

Taryn
post #14 of 37
7/8/10 at 4:17am
Returning an animal because it really needs to be an only is not necessarily a death sentence. It depends on the facility. But every "shelter" is full right now and many are having to euthanize for space reasons.

Your state agriculture dept may keep records on the euth rate at all animal shelters regulated by them... ours does.

It took months of isolation for Casper-he was and still is terrified of the other cats (still trying to rehome him- he came in as a foster.) But he can be out of "his" room - I have Feliway going and he has his favorite blankie to lay on.

Mostly now the others just ignore him or cut him a wide path. I know he would be happier as an "only" and I am still working on that. Aside from occasional skirmishes, there is essentially a truce in the house.

I really hope things turn out with Vivian. I would keep a lookout for someone who might want an only cat though... as that may be a win-win for everyone.
post #15 of 37
7/8/10 at 4:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AddieBee View Post
Returning an animal because it really needs to be an only is not necessarily a death sentence. It depends on the facility. But every "shelter" is full right now and many are having to euthanize for space reasons.

Your state agriculture dept may keep records on the euth rate at all animal shelters regulated by them... ours does.

It took months of isolation for Casper-he was and still is terrified of the other cats (still trying to rehome him- he came in as a foster.) But he can be out of "his" room - I have Feliway going and he has his favorite blankie to lay on.

Mostly now the others just ignore him or cut him a wide path. I know he would be happier as an "only" and I am still working on that. Aside from occasional skirmishes, there is essentially a truce in the house.

I really hope things turn out with Vivian. I would keep a lookout for someone who might want an only cat though... as that may be a win-win for everyone.




......
post #16 of 37
7/8/10 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by piikki View Post
Okay, I have to ask on what do you base this statement? I am not saying it’s false but I would just like to know on what kind of data is it based?
I have no data. It's well-known that the local shelter will kill any animals returned for any reason. Many shelters are the same. That animal had its chance; one strike and you're out. I'm sure some shelters are better-run and not as crowded, maybe they can cut the returned animals some slack.

If anyone wnats to know the kill rate of your local shelter, you can ask them for a shelter census. They're required to make that available for the asking.
post #17 of 37
7/8/10 at 11:11pm
If you have Animal Planet, tune into Animal Cops. They often feature stories about pets that do not fit inside the "perfect little box" and have to be put down at no fault of their own.

Your kitty is also at an increased risk now since it is kitten season and census's are high.

I wish you luck and hope you are able to make an informed and well thought out decision. I am not here to judge you.

ETA - Often the shelters featured on Animal Cops are even affliated with SPCA's as well.
post #18 of 37
7/9/10 at 3:49am
I don't like animal cops because they put down any cats with leukemia, I can understand not wanting them in the shelter(even though I know of 3 shelters that will do it, only one is local) or try to find them a foster situation, I don't know how many rescues there are here that take FeLV+ cats(there are topo many to count.)

On a Miami Animal Cops they used the excuse that it would cause them to suffer a long painful death. Uh, no it doesn't. Mine don't suffer and when the time comes it comes, no pain in that and then yeah they die, bummer.

I still watch it though, I like it for the content not that shelter's policies on animals with communicable diseases, they have the standard policy that almost all shelters do. I just wish they would try to find them homes even if it is not through their shelter. I know in some states that won't fly though IL appears to be one of those states.

I can't blame them and I can understand their position but to blatantly lie that it will cause them to suffer a slow painful death is wrong.

Taryn
post #19 of 37
7/15/10 at 11:22am
Thread Starter 
Thank you so much everyone for the replies and all of the info, I appreciate it!

As much as I am against declawing, my husband and I made the decision to get Viv declawed so we could keep her and keep the other two girls safe. She went and had the declaw done on Tuesday. They kept her overnight and she came home yesterday and is doing very well. It was a tough decision and one that broke my heart to do but I couldn't live with knowing she could hurt one of our other two cats again. I would never declaw a cat to protect my furniture or anything like that - this was solely for the household safety factor. I feel terrible though, I didn't want to put her through that but if we didn't I have a feeling we would have had to find her a new home and we sure didn't want to do that.

Thanks everyone,
post #20 of 37
7/15/10 at 11:38am
Oh boy... So now what happens if she starts biting and having litterbox issues?
God, so sorry I read this... Vibes to your girl
post #21 of 37
7/15/10 at 12:40pm
I do not agree with declawing either, you are going to open up a whole can of worms and her behavioural issues will get way worse. Look for another home for her or a no-kill shelter. x
post #22 of 37
7/15/10 at 3:20pm
Oh dear, that's so sad. I don't think it wil help at all, either; cats don't damage each other with their claws. They mostly bite each other. I hope it'll help, but I don't see how.

Now you're obligated to keep her for life, no matter what. I find it especially despicable when people get rid of their de-clawed cats. Once you've rendered them helpless it's just wrong to put them in an unknown situation.

This is why I think de-clawing should be illegal. Or at least more vets need to refuse to do it, at least under certain circumstances. Instead, you can make an appointment with any vet to de-claw any cat; they won't even ask if the cat goes outside or not. Mutilation on demand. Ugh.
post #23 of 37
7/15/10 at 8:20pm
What's done is done - no reason to badger the OP further. We cannot change what happened, but only try to help make it work.

As far as Vivian goes - she is likely to be more "aggressive" towards other cats now that she is declawed, as they often know they are lacking their primarily line of defense. (We do have cats that are surrendered to the shelter here as they become aggressive towards other cats in the household after being declawed.) I would for sure set her up in a room by herself, without having her have any interaction with the other cats, for at least a month. It will take bare minimum 2 weeks for her paws to get even close to healing. During this time she will also adapt to walking different, as she no longer has the tips of her toes. Her paws will be particularly sensitive, so if the other cats are within sight & she hurts her paws, she may associate them with the pain & hate them even more.

Handle things carefully during this time, as she needs to recover in peace. She can easily make bad associations between the pain in her paws & the other cats, and make things worse.
post #24 of 37
7/15/10 at 8:47pm
You've been handed a stacked deck and I understand how hard the decisions you've made have been.

No, I do not like declawing. However, you made the best decision you could with the knowledge that you had. I'm guessing you didn't realize the damage the procedure could do to her behavior and her personality, even if you did know the physical risks.

Maybe further discussion before her procedure could have saved you not only the money, but the possible behavior problems that may crop up. But, Shrug, done is done.

I for one think that you can still make this work, but there's going to be a long road ahead. and best wishes. I'm sorry you got bullied.
post #25 of 37
7/15/10 at 9:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by white cat lover View Post
What's done is done - no reason to badger the OP further. We cannot change what happened, but only try to help make it work.

As far as Vivian goes - she is likely to be more "aggressive" towards other cats now that she is declawed, as they often know they are lacking their primarily line of defense. (We do have cats that are surrendered to the shelter here as they become aggressive towards other cats in the household after being declawed.) I would for sure set her up in a room by herself, without having her have any interaction with the other cats, for at least a month. It will take bare minimum 2 weeks for her paws to get even close to healing. During this time she will also adapt to walking different, as she no longer has the tips of her toes. Her paws will be particularly sensitive, so if the other cats are within sight & she hurts her paws, she may associate them with the pain & hate them even more.

Handle things carefully during this time, as she needs to recover in peace. She can easily make bad associations between the pain in her paws & the other cats, and make things worse.
Great advice. Pretty much the same great advice that was given before Vivian was mutilated. Will they be more willing to put in the time and effort now, when they weren't before? We can only hope.

I'm sorry you see my posts as badgering. But sometimes an honest reaction of horror can make a difference, for the next cat who comes along at risk of being declawed.

I am horrified. I can't understand how anyone can do it. I can't understand how any VET could be willing to do it to a full grown adult cat. I just can't get my mind around it.
post #26 of 37
7/15/10 at 9:22pm
I agree also my aunt made the mistake and Tinkerbelle became a very mean biter.
You should have asked for advice on here before you did a terrible thing.
post #27 of 37
7/15/10 at 9:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivvie View Post
Thank you so much everyone for the replies and all of the info, I appreciate it!

As much as I am against declawing, my husband and I made the decision to get Viv declawed so we could keep her and keep the other two girls safe. She went and had the declaw done on Tuesday. They kept her overnight and she came home yesterday and is doing very well. It was a tough decision and one that broke my heart to do but I couldn't live with knowing she could hurt one of our other two cats again. I would never declaw a cat to protect my furniture or anything like that - this was solely for the household safety factor. I feel terrible though, I didn't want to put her through that but if we didn't I have a feeling we would have had to find her a new home and we sure didn't want to do that.

Thanks everyone,
Obviously you are really confused, you can't be against declawing and then have a kitty declawed.
"I would never declaw a cat to protect my furniture or anything like that - this was solely for the household safety factor."
Huh?
post #28 of 37
7/16/10 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otto View Post
I'm sorry you see my posts as badgering. But sometimes an honest reaction of horror can make a difference, for the next cat who comes along at risk of being declawed..
Possibly, but you also run the risk of turning away someone (e.g. the OP or even a lurker considering joining the forum) who might otherwise benefit from your advice. I too find the situation very sad, but I don't thinking browbeating or trying to shame the OP is helpful.
post #29 of 37
7/16/10 at 6:53am
I think it's important that some people like Otto went for the bat strongly because this is an issue of education - but like said what's done is done, and now it's important to listen to advice from White Cat Lover et al to make sure Vivian has the best chance.

I am sure there are a lot of vets still who will advice this - the first vet I went to after getting cats was very casual about declawing, it was a fix-all. It seems like a lot of people who are 'against' it have not REALLY thought about it so much after all, and when push comes to shove and 'expert' is OK with it, the decision is still made lightly. I am sure OP was emotionally distraught about the possibility of having to return Vivian and the risk she posed to other cats, and easy convert if she had not really thought this through.

I agree though that the responsibility now jumped sky-high. You can't give up on her!
post #30 of 37
7/16/10 at 10:30am
I think people should stop for a second here - first, all declawed cats do not universally have litter box or other behavioral issues. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is not a universal given. Why in the world scare off people who might be willing to adopt a declawed cat (and there are many in the shelters) because of this myth that all declawed cats are going to act out?

My own two are declawed (they came that way - adult strays). My girl has never had either issue, and my boy had box issues related to struvite crystals.

Secondly, many many shelters would argue that giving a cat, especially one who might not have been adopted, a home can be of overriding importance.

Thirdly, people who make someone who thought long and hard about a difficult decision feel like a murderer are not helping anything. Providing information about the pro's and con's of declawing are one thing - but driving people away from a website due to, I'm sorry, intemperant language will not educate anyone.

And, in the OP's case, this was not a lightly made decision, as far as I could see. I'm honestly ashamed of some of the language many posters that I admired have used in this thread.
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