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Shooting Across the Mexican Border Pelts City Hall El Paso

post #1 of 25
7/6/10 at 5:37pm
Thread Starter 
http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_154059...ce=most_viewed

I am glad I don't work at the City Hall building in El Paso, Tx. Another reason something needs to be done about the US borders.
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post #2 of 25
7/6/10 at 11:34pm
What do you suggest they do with the borders? Build a bullet-proof shield or something? The article says that they were stray bullets from a shooting in Juarez, and not intentionally shot at the building. I don't see how it can be prevented though.

Scary for those who work there, though, I'm sure.
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post #3 of 25
7/7/10 at 4:10am
Thread Starter 
It is strange how people read the same article and draw different conclusions.
The articles says they "think" and they are "still investigating". I did notice they say an American helicopter was later seen flying the area. Apparently Juarez has been a trouble spot for a long time. Maybe they don't need to wait for a shooting to fly a helicopter. I don't know, I am not the President. But I believe an administration that thinks they can fix health care, control car companies, banks, etc. and fix they economy ought to be able to fix this too. A stray bullet sounds harmless enough, until it hits you or your family. As for what to do about it, in reality you put whatever resources you have on that border to handle the drug cartel. You let them know it stops or you take them out.
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post #4 of 25
7/7/10 at 5:32am
A small number of people are killed every year in hunting accidents and stray bullets from hunters and target shooters. Perhaps we should look into putting a stop to that too.
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post #5 of 25
7/7/10 at 5:57am
Thread Starter 
Mike, this thread is not about that. Maybe you should start a thread about gun control.
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post #6 of 25
7/7/10 at 6:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
Mike, this thread is not about that. Maybe you should start a thread about gun control.
It isn't about gun control. It's simply continuing on what you said earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
A stray bullet sounds harmless enough, until it hits you or your family.
Would it matter where that bullet came from?
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post #7 of 25
7/7/10 at 9:36am
Thread Starter 
The bigger problem is of course the drug cartels and the illegal entry at those borders. The incident in this article should just serve as a reminder that we will continue to have problems as long as the borders are not secure.
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post #8 of 25
7/7/10 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
The bigger problem is of course the drug cartels and the illegal entry at those borders. The incident in this article should just serve as a reminder that we will continue to have problems as long as the borders are not secure.
Why is it a bigger problem? Would the family of someone killed by a stray hunters bullet think so?
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post #9 of 25
7/7/10 at 6:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
The bigger problem is of course the drug cartels and the illegal entry at those borders. The incident in this article should just serve as a reminder that we will continue to have problems as long as the borders are not secure.
The bullets were fired from another country. Our country does not have the right to "take them out". We can't even "take out" our own gangs and criminals, so I'm not sure why you're so sure we could eliminate the drug cartels in Mexico.

As for admonishing Mike for hijacking a thread, maybe you should check your own posts first...you managed to include your usual saw about health care, and slamming the current administration. I'd tell you to start your own thread about those, but there are about a kajillion of them already.
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post #10 of 25
7/7/10 at 6:44pm
Thread Starter 
I realize we cannot go into Mexico and do anything. But we can do something to secure our borders. Has anyone read about what Mexico does to illegal immigrants that come into their country. They shoot them on sight.
A fence could be built and the military patrol it. A fence was being built in Southern Ca., but it was recently stopped. The illegal immigrants cost this country billions of dollars every year. Also people on those southern borders are not safe from the killings of the drug cartels. The Mexican military have already made incursions across our border to protect the drug smugglers. I have not put any sources here because you guys shoot them down when I post them. But it is easy enough to find if you really want to read about it.
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post #11 of 25
7/8/10 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
I have not put any sources here because you guys shoot them down when I post them.
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger.
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post #12 of 25
7/8/10 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
I realize we cannot go into Mexico and do anything. But we can do something to secure our borders. Has anyone read about what Mexico does to illegal immigrants that come into their country. They shoot them on sight.
A fence could be built and the military patrol it. A fence was being built in Southern Ca., but it was recently stopped. The illegal immigrants cost this country billions of dollars every year. Also people on those southern borders are not safe from the killings of the drug cartels. The Mexican military have already made incursions across our border to protect the drug smugglers. I have not put any sources here because you guys shoot them down when I post them. But it is easy enough to find if you really want to read about it.
But you're talking about two entirely different topics. No fence is going to keep a bullet out...unless it's really, really, really high. I'm saying this topic doesn't have anything to do with immigration law, or how much illegal immigrants cost the country. The story was about a stray bullet. I never said it was harmless, as you suggested. What I'm saying is that stray bullets happen all the time. I realize they're dangerous as I've heard them shot outside my window on occasion. What I am saying is that that muddying the waters with talk of immigration control is entirely beside the point, and that no amount of "shoot on sight", "take them out", and "smoke them out of their holes" philosophy is going to solve the problem. If it did, we wouldn't have gangs, drug dealers, or innocents killed by stray bullets in cities across the country, and across the world.

You're stuck on the point that the bullet originated from across the border...my point is that immigration laws aren't to blame...the drug cartels are. There isn't a fence in the world that will solve that problem.
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post #13 of 25
7/8/10 at 7:16pm
I give up. I can't find any news stories of the Mexican Army entering the US in support of smugglers. Nor any instances of "shoot them on sight" of illegal immigrants in Mexico.

When was this supposed to have happened?
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post #14 of 25
7/8/10 at 8:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
I give up. I can't find any news stories of the Mexican Army entering the US in support of smugglers. Nor any instances of "shoot them on sight" of illegal immigrants in Mexico.

When was this supposed to have happened?
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/...er_problem.xml
Read the above for information about Mexican millitary incursions into the US.

If you type in Mexicans shoot illegal immigrants on Google, the first site that comes up has the story about the shootings.


The following website has some interesting reading on the cost of illegal immigrants to the US.
http://www.personalliberty.com/index...migrants+to+us

Please don't attack me on these sources. There are others as I have said before. I am only posting what I read. I don't know if any of it is true.
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post #15 of 25
7/8/10 at 10:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post


The following website has some interesting reading on the cost of illegal immigrants to the US.
http://www.personalliberty.com/index...migrants+to+us

Please don't attack me on these sources. There are others as I have said before. I am only posting what I read. I don't know if any of it is true.
It's hard not to when it's the same site that states that nobody dies of cancer.
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post #16 of 25
7/9/10 at 5:37am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by clixpix View Post
It's hard not to when it's the same site that states that nobody dies of cancer.

I did state in my post I had only read it and made no claims of its truth. I have posted another source for reading. There are many sites that have reading about the cost of illegal immigrants and you can find them for yourself if you care to read more.

When I search to read about a particular subject, I only read about that. Just like when I read my local paper, I only read the articles I am interested in. So when I posted the first site, I had not read the cancer article you gave reference to. I went back and read it and it states that according to doctors, most people with cancer die of failure of the immune system due to conventional cancer treatments, that they don't actually die of the cancer. It makes sense to me.

http://cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
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post #17 of 25
7/9/10 at 7:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/...er_problem.xml
Read the above for information about Mexican millitary incursions into the US.

If you type in Mexicans shoot illegal immigrants on Google, the first site that comes up has the story about the shootings.


The following website has some interesting reading on the cost of illegal immigrants to the US.
http://www.personalliberty.com/index...migrants+to+us

Please don't attack me on these sources. There are others as I have said before. I am only posting what I read. I don't know if any of it is true.
Ah, I see. I misunderstood. I'd heard that Mexico has some rogue soldiers and some rogue border guards. We do too. The way I was reading it was as though it were some kind of National procedure for Mexico.
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post #18 of 25
7/9/10 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Ah, I see. I misunderstood. I'd heard that Mexico has some rogue soldiers and some rogue border guards. We do too. The way I was reading it was as though it were some kind of National procedure for Mexico.

We are, indeed, aware of criminal organizations that wear military-style uniforms, use military-style equipment and weapons, and employ military-type vehicles and tactics while conducting illegal activity in border areas. Trafficking of persons and contraband constitutes a major threat, regardless of the perpetrators’ identity. Border Patrol does not have proof that recent trafficking incidents we have seen involving individuals dressed in military or law enforcement attire were in fact Mexican Government personnel. However, we address each of these incidents as the serious criminal acts that they are, and these cases are actively pursued.

This is I supppose the excerpt you are referring to. This is talking about recent traffic activity. If you read the whole article it does state other activity.

http://poe.house.gov/News/DocumentSi...umentID=181953


Above is another link where you can read that it doesn't just happen on land, but in the air.
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post #19 of 25
7/9/10 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
We are, indeed, aware of criminal organizations that wear military-style uniforms, use military-style equipment and weapons, and employ military-type vehicles and tactics while conducting illegal activity in border areas. Trafficking of persons and contraband constitutes a major threat, regardless of the perpetrators’ identity. Border Patrol does not have proof that recent trafficking incidents we have seen involving individuals dressed in military or law enforcement attire were in fact Mexican Government personnel. However, we address each of these incidents as the serious criminal acts that they are, and these cases are actively pursued.

This is I supppose the excerpt you are referring to. This is talking about recent traffic activity. If you read the whole article it does state other activity.

http://poe.house.gov/News/DocumentSi...umentID=181953


Above is another link where you can read that it doesn't just happen on land, but in the air.
Actually, no, I wasn't referring to statements in the article at all. I've no doubt that there are soldiers involved, but as criminals, not as any kind of organized, officially directed troop movement in support of criminal activity, which is what saying "the military" suggests. We have bad apples too, most every nation does.

And the helicopters are no big deal. Aircraft using IFR navigation wander off course, happens all the time...that's how one of our own F-16's ending up making a strafing run on one of our own schools in 2004.
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post #20 of 25
7/9/10 at 6:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
And the helicopters are no big deal. Aircraft using IFR navigation wander off course, happens all the time...that's how one of our own F-16's ending up making a strafing run on one of our own schools in 2004.

Mike did you read the article. I just thought it very strange the article says the incidents were three weeks apart. The planes were over two miles into the US. The spot where it happened, a river separates the borders so they are saying it is impossible for someone flying a plane to fly across that river and not know they have crossed the border.

The following article is about drug cartels who have set up lookouts in the mountains of Arizona. I didn't just find it on this source. It is out there in many other places for anyone who wants another source. Why isn't our government down there running out those folks. Are we protecting drug smugglers coming into this country. I posted this here because this is one more example of problems on our borders that our government needs to deal with and should have already done so.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/22...outs-parkland/
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post #21 of 25
7/9/10 at 10:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
Mike did you read the article. I just thought it very strange the article says the incidents were three weeks apart. The planes were over two miles into the US. The spot where it happened, a river separates the borders so they are saying it is impossible for someone flying a plane to fly across that river and not know they have crossed the border.

The following article is about drug cartels who have set up lookouts in the mountains of Arizona. I didn't just find it on this source. It is out there in many other places for anyone who wants another source. Why isn't our government down there running out those folks. Are we protecting drug smugglers coming into this country. I posted this here because this is one more example of problems on our borders that our government needs to deal with and should have already done so.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/22...outs-parkland/
The good congressman forgot to mention that at the time, the river was miles wide from flooding, looking more like an enormous lake than a river. Helicopters could have been several miles inside the US border and still been over water. This has been a banner year nationwide for flooding. We had water standing on 1000 year flood plains this year. I don't understand why the congressman feels that Mexico is an enemy nation, that seems to be a bit confusing actually. He claims that "we protect other nation's borders with our military"...yet, Turks will cross several miles into Iraq, Pakistan will cross several miles into Afghanistan, etc. Friendly nations do that.

As for the rest, I'd don't know really. The government isn't chasing US drug gang lookouts out of Phoenix, Little Rock, LA, DC, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Indianapolis, Albany, Boston, etc. either. Maybe it's because they realize that it's a criminal thing, not an immigration thing. Perhaps if our law enforcement agencies spent as much time pursuing violent criminals as they do complaining about immigrants, things may not be so bad.
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post #22 of 25
7/10/10 at 6:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
The good congressman forgot to mention that at the time, the river was miles wide from flooding, looking more like an enormous lake than a river. Helicopters could have been several miles inside the US border and still been over water. This has been a banner year nationwide for flooding. We had water standing on 1000 year flood plains this year. I don't understand why the congressman feels that Mexico is an enemy nation, that seems to be a bit confusing actually. He claims that "we protect other nation's borders with our military"...yet, Turks will cross several miles into Iraq, Pakistan will cross several miles into Afghanistan, etc. Friendly nations do that.

As for the rest, I'd don't know really. The government isn't chasing US drug gang lookouts out of Phoenix, Little Rock, LA, DC, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Indianapolis, Albany, Boston, etc. either. Maybe it's because they realize that it's a criminal thing, not an immigration thing. Perhaps if our law enforcement agencies spent as much time pursuing violent criminals as they do complaining about immigrants, things may not be so bad.
Where did you read that about the river being flooded during the time talked about in this article. Nevertheless, if the river is the border, the planes should have stopped when they saw the river to be sure they didn't cross the border.

Also, it seems we just view it differently. Mexican drug cartels are criminals because they are breaking laws. If they are in our country protecting drug smugglers, they are breaking laws. They should be run out of America. If they are in our country, it is our responsibility, not someone else's.

Maricopa County Ariz. is currently holding 1100 illegal immigrants who are charged with crimes like murder, rape, manslaughter, those kinds of violent crimes. This is another reason why illegal immigration issues at our borders need to be dealt with. If the borders are closed, it soon would have an impact on what is happening with drug smugglers everywhere in this country.
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post #23 of 25
7/10/10 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
Where did you read that about the river being flooded during the time talked about in this article.
The article was from mid-April. Back to back hurricanes had Texas and Mexico flooding well into May. The picture you see in this video isn't the Rio Grande; it's what is normally an open field.

Quote:
Also, it seems we just view it differently. Mexican drug cartels are criminals because they are breaking laws. If they are in our country protecting drug smugglers, they are breaking laws. They should be run out of America. If they are in our country, it is our responsibility, not someone else's.

Exactly...there are tens upon tens of thousands of US born criminals in this country. That makes them our responsibility. Why isn't there a push for the government to do something about them?

Quote:
Maricopa County Ariz. is currently holding 1100 illegal immigrants who are charged with crimes like murder, rape, manslaughter, those kinds of violent crimes. This is another reason why illegal immigration issues at our borders need to be dealt with. If the borders are closed, it soon would have an impact on what is happening with drug smugglers everywhere in this country.
No they're not. They're holding approximately 1100 immigrants TOTAL, to include the ones being held on behalf of ICE for no other reason than being undocumented. Which makes the total immigrant population, both violent and non-violent, a little less that 1/5th of the County's jail population. Seeing as the county only has time to arrest US criminals if they fall into their lap, while actively hunting immigrants, that could make the number of US criminals outnumber the immigrants by as much as 8 to 1. Seeing as they are simply declining to investigate or pursue cases like murder or the rapes of teenage girls (not newsworthy enough, I suppose), we'll will never know how truly skewed their numbers are.
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post #24 of 25
7/10/10 at 9:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
The article was from mid-April. Back to back hurricanes had Texas and Mexico flooding well into May. The picture you see in this video isn't the Rio Grande; it's what is normally an open field.




Exactly...there are tens upon tens of thousands of US born criminals in this country. That makes them our responsibility. Why isn't there a push for the government to do something about them?



No they're not. They're holding approximately 1100 immigrants TOTAL, to include the ones being held on behalf of ICE for no other reason than being undocumented. Which makes the total immigrant population, both violent and non-violent, a little less that 1/5th of the County's jail population. Seeing as the county only has time to arrest US criminals if they fall into their lap, while actively hunting immigrants, that could make the number of US criminals outnumber the immigrants by as much as 8 to 1. Seeing as they are simply declining to investigate or pursue cases like murder or the rapes of teenage girls (not newsworthy enough, I suppose), we'll will never know how truly skewed their numbers are.
As I said already, even if the river was flooded whoever was flying those planes in two different incidents, three weeks apart, should have turned the planes around. I am sure they would have know if there was flooding in the area.

Maricopa County has their own website with some very interesting numbers of arrests and those being held in jails.
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post #25 of 25
7/10/10 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueyedgirl5946 View Post
As I said already, even if the river was flooded whoever was flying those planes in two different incidents, three weeks apart, should have turned the planes around. I am sure they would have know if there was flooding in the area.

Maricopa County has their own website with some very interesting numbers of arrests and those being held in jails.
Why? During the flooding our helicopters were looking for anyone in trouble, within sight on either side of the border. Why shouldn't Mexico's?

I got the numbers from their web site. You do notice they didn't include one little detail. County jails don't hold convicted felons, other than Class "D" or minor felonies (writing bad checks?) or to await their placement in the state prison system. "Detained" or "Held" means they aren't convicted (proven to be guilty) of a crime yet. So, to use that number as a definite in the rate of violent crime is somewhere between misleading and false.

They also still refuse to account for any of the money from their internet marketing their jail is advertising for, and they also don't post the number of criminal cases they simply "drop" to make time to use their deputies to chase immigrants, so they can advertise the numbers on their website to sell "jail collectibles"...that they don't account for.
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