Ex-Manson follower, Leslie VanHouten up for parol

I saw the lead in to the story today at lunch but didn't see the actual story. Thanks for the link and starting the thread.

I just have to say....Only in California...

There have been many studies that show that some inmates do really good under the intense rules, schedules, and discipline that prison has, but who don't do well at all outside of prison.

As for not basing the decision on the crime committed...I'm just appalled. We watch prison shows fairly often, and there was a man on death row in Utah (I think) who had "found God" after being a serial killer. (I didn't know God was hiding out in prison but apparently He does that.) This guy was completely 100% in his beliefs, too, which is what makes this even scarier, IMO. He said, "It is worse to kill a man or steal a cracker? In The Lord's eye it is not different; a sin is a sin is a sin." That chilled me straight to the bone. He had completely justified what he had done and the people he had killed, as long as he had sought forgiveness and redemption. I'm sure glad he was convicted after 1974 and the whole reversal of the death penalty/nope it's ok thing. I honestly do sleep better knowing he and people like him will not get out!

The Tate-La Bianca murders were horrendous in their brutality. The girls who were convicted right along-side Manson may well have been under his control, but they still did the deed (along with Tex Watson, convicted in a separate trial). Leslie was young, but she still did it.

I wasn't even born when those crimes happened, but I have read multiple books (Helter Skelter by Vincent Bugliosi, the lead prosecutor is by far the best) about what happened. What they did in those two households will make your skin crawl and hair curl. And Manson never did anything except tie up Leno La Bianca.

She should die in prison. These were the most horrific murders I have ever seen.

Just like her accomplice, was it Susan Atkins? who had terminal cancer. They refused her too.

Keep her behind bars.

To an extent I believe there is rehabilitation for people in jail. However in most cases people who have been in prison for sooooo long end up being institutionalized. They do not know how to function without being in prison, having all the set rules, when to go to bed eat shower etc. Ive seen people get like this after only a couple months in county jail let alone a state prison, IMO people who do end up institutionalized after jail time are better off in jail, they will end up commiting a crime just to get back to jail to feel 'normal'.

In regards to her being a Manson Follower......Let her rot in jail, people like that should never go free.

For me, you take someones life then you stay banged up with no chance of parole. I couldn't care less how well behaved they've been inside, they should stay there until they die. It's not just the victim that's suffered, it's their family and friends as well.

19 attempts for parole?!. What a waste of tax payers money IMO.

Keep them all there. Original poster says on the fence, all replies say keep them there. Good to see something that is agreed on.

I am old enough to remember when this happened. I don't know whether it was just me growing up, or if it was because the world was changing so drastically during that time, but things just never seemed the same. It brought a lot of ugly things to light, and showed the world a brutality that many people could not believe existed. Let her and any of the remaining ones rot in jail forever. They are not worth the expense and attention of an execution, and they certainly do not belong unleashed on society.

Yes, it was Susan Atkins.

Exactly. That's part of what I mean in my long and meandering post. She is, no doubt, institutionalized. She went from living with her parents (school, parent's rules), running away and hooking up with Manson (very controlling in all aspects of their lives, including their sex lives), to prison. She has never been without someone controlling her life! IF she were to get out, she would no doubt gravitate to other controlling people/person who could do the same controlling/criminal thing as Manson did (to a lesser degree, of course, but the same concept).

The other part is that she is 60. She has never held a job outside of prison. Are her parents still alive? If so, for how long? (Not to be morbid, but we don't live forever.) How would she support herself, or even integrate into the real world? CA may have a program for reintegration, but it isn't all that long or comprehensive.

Not to mention that she would always, ALWAYS be at risk for her own life/wellbeing. It's not like people don't know her face, even if she did change her name.

I actually wanted to address this last night, but my post was so long that I didn't.

I understand being on the fence for many reasons, but I would disagree that people who committed similar or worse crimes are out. I have read a lot of of True Crime books, and Investigation Discovery, Sleuth and A&E (City Confidential, etc.) are my go-to channels. Basically, I've heard about a lot of different crimes and murders. I've not heard of anything that compares to the Tate-La Bianca murders. Some come close, and they are either on death row or life without possibility of parole.

Whether because they were still under his control or not Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkle and Leslie Van Houten went against their lawyer's advice and were tried as a group with Manson. They made their bed, IMO, they all need to lie in it.

It was only because of a small (time-wise) moratorium on the sentence of death that she even has any possibility of parole. Manson stopped trying, except when he wants attention. Otherwise all four of them would have been put to death long ago.

In case you didn't see, she was denied parole. Of course her lawyer said they are going to appeal the ruling. The Parole Board did say that "concerns for public safety were insufficient for a 10-15 year denial" so she can apply for parole in another 3 years.

Personally, I don't think the issue here is the notoriety of the case but the brutality of the killings and post-mortem wounds/writings.

I agree with the one that said they can't really function outside the prison. They are there with strict guidelines. How could she fit back in with society now? She would be so lost that the only place that would be "safe" for her would be in prison - and she probably would do something just to return.

My BIL has been in prison most of his life, he's gotten out two times and both times it was a matter of months before he was back in again - he's tried to get a job, etc and it just doesn't work for long. Sad but not a lot you can do.

The resources are not there to help them deal with the outside world.

Good!!. But when you think what the tax payers money could have went towards instead of wasting it.

I don't think i've ever seen someone going for parole 19 times here?. I know Myra Hindley the Moors Murderer tried a couple of times but that was about it.

She just needs to accept life in prison. There is no plan that any goverment can have to adjust a person who has been in prison that long to the real world. Sorry I just dont believe its possible. I think there are just some people who (this might sound harsh but...) need to be in jail. I know one girl who really honestly tried to get clean and sober, tried to work with the drug court system and she just couldnt function, got caught and sent back to jail for a non drug related charge. They revoked her probation and sent her to state prison, the last time I heard from her she said she was actually happier in jail (still clean and sober) than she was out on the streets, it is her way of coping or dealing with life. To me it doesnt make too much sense because I could never live that way but for some people its the structure and rigidity of that life they need to live. Id rather pay taxes to keep people like that in jail than have them running free and ending up sending them back to jail.

Well...to say that she "couldn't" fit in with society is pretty meaningless. We don't know her...don't know how her psyche squares with other examples of likeness that were set free into the real world. Even if we were her psychiatrist, we still wouldn't "know". It just seems like an easy out.

I harken back to "The Shawshank Redemption". There, we shed tears of joy when a murderer was set free. Maybe if we were to have seen this woman's prison life on the big screen, glamourized and with the ability to see visual cues of hers, to get some context to her words and actions, we would be championing her cause. But we don't. She's essentially a lifeless entity to us, that - when we get to the heart of it - is as much guilty by association than anything.

Would I want her out if I were a member of the victim's family? Of course not. Which is why I'm not big on letting family members speak at sentencings. I understand the need for closure. But judicial matters should be 100% rooted in logic and facts, and I'm not sure anything that heightens the emotional component is appropriate.

There's a big emotional component with this case. My ex-wife's niece is a rather unstable sort, the type I could see getting involved with a demented mentor, if just to be "understood and appreciated". I could see her killing someone, under the right circumstances. She has a mind that's almost not of this world, very insightful and sensitive, yet throws up huge emotional walls. She's not an ambitious girl. If she committed a heinous crime and subsequently did her allotted time and did everything within her power to redeem herself, creating a better product within the same skin - but died within those walls - I would fail to see how "The System" worked, in any form.

I realize Van Houten and the others caught a break with the capital punishment ruling, but if she's simply not going to get out, find a way to make it understood. Otherwise, this dog and pony show they put on every few years constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. America is big on commemorating - dare I say celebrating - failure and tragedy, and this is one more example where it's time to move on, in one form or another.

Charlie, Susan, Lesley and Patricia would all be dead and in Hell right now if California hadn't stopped the death penalty...although she "claims" she has done the most to turn her life around, I'm sure the victims' children don't buy it. Let her freedom come when they carry her out of prison in a box.

Does she have any way to support herself? No. Not unless there is a living member of her family (blood family, not "The Family") who is willing to pay for everything for her.

Could she get a job? Granted she does have one or more college degrees. But there's a heck of a lot of college educated young people out there who cannot find any work, and they don't have a violent felony on their record. There are a LOT of jobs where you are disqualified automatically if you have a felony of any kind, let alone a violent felony. They don't care how long ago it happened. There are even many rental properties that automatically disqualify felons as well. Maybe there's a bleeding heart out there who would give her a job because of who she is (it is California!), but there are a lot more who would see her application and laugh because of who she is.

I'm not even talking about adjusting to living on the outside, just about making a living on the outside. Unless she has a very wealthy relative, of course.

Did you forget about Brooks? He's the old man who had spent so much of his life in prison that when he did finally get released he couldn't deal with the real world and hung himself.

Oh yeah, and that book and movie were also fiction. Written by Stephen King, who was writing it as a good story not as something to judge real life prison and parole on. I'm not completely sure of King's background, but I don't think he has spent a whole lot of time in prison. Just sayin'...

The criminal also shouldn't be able to state what a good person they are either. That should also have no weight in the decision of sentencing or parole if we're going solely on logic and fact.

Yup, there is a big emotional component. If the Tate/La Bianca murders don't elicit an emotional response from you, IMO there's something lacking in your sense of emotion. Frankly, considering the crimes, if any of those who perpetrated them die outside of prison I would fail to see how "The System" worked in any form.


Cruel and unusual punishment??? Seriously???

I just can't even respond to that. I'm completely dumbfounded - speechless even.

Seriously. Cruel and unusual punishment???

I was a child (10 years old) when these crimes were committed, a young teen (13) when the book Helter Skelter came out. I was absolutely horrified by the senseless violence was described on TV and in the book. I am totally pro capital punishment, and these people should have been executed for their crimes. I wonder what the cost has been to house, feed, and educate these criminals. How much money has been spent on their appeals? It makes me sick to think of the money wasted on them...people who had so little compassion or respect for the people they brutally murdered in cold blood. Rehabilitated???!!!??? Bah! If only there was a retroactive death penalty. She deserves it as much now as she did then.

Wow, I feel terrible that you were so taken aback with what I wrote.

Rest easy, as next time I will find out in advance what position I should have taken, before I formulate an opinion that was directed to no one in particular.

My apologies.

I think that should be a serious consideration at her parole hearing. It seems that she is making a positive contribution to the society in which she is currently living.

Yes, I think they are being treated differently. Should Charles Manson himself ever be released? NO!! He is a loonie-toons now as he was back then. To this day he has expressed no remorse and feels he is the victim.

But his followers are another story. Back when these awful crimes were committed, we didn't know much about cults and how they can brainwash and influence people. Now we know much more. We understand the psyche behind them. These girls were brainwashed and drugged. And I am without a doubt in my mind that both of those things were what lead them to do what he told them to do.

To my knowledge all of the girls have expressed remorse for their crimes. They seem to have turned their lives around in prison. I feel they should get a chance to do the same outside of jail. Perhaps not full parole at first, but time away from jail during the day or on weekends, leading to full parole in time.

Exactly. As I said above, they are being treated differently because of the notoriety of the crimes....and the fact that it was a "cult following."

You've never felt badly before - why start now?

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure if that post was meant to be completely sarcastic (which I think it was) or not. Either way - you have your opinion and I have mine.

Some people feel that prison is solely for rehabilitation, some people feel that it is solely for punishment. I personally feel it is a bit of both, though frankly we (the US) does far better at punishment than rehabilitation.

Van Houten was only involved in two people's grisly, horrific murders, not the grisly, horrific murders of five people (6 by today's laws, since Sharon Tate was 8 months pregnant and the baby would have been viable outside the womb) the morning prior. She, Linda Kasabian and Charles "Tex" Watson only strangled and stabbed Rosemary La Bianca 41 times. They only carved WAR in Leno's chest before writing graffiti on the walls in blood, left a serving fork stabbed in his stomach and a carving knife sticking out of his throat.

She was certainly under Manson's control. She has certainly become a better person (than someone with no regard for life that she was) since being in prison. Tex Watson was the leader of the two forays, doing more of the actual killing than the girls. He's "found God" and become a minister in prison. Should he get out too?

This is a notorious murder spree. Yes, everyone knows about it. They know Charles Manson, anyway. They know he is sheer evil. They know Sharon Tate - she was pretty, pregnant and Roman Polanski's wife. I hope and believe that the reason all of them are still in prison, that Susan Atkin died in prison, is because of the crimes that were committed.

I actually do have to amend one thing. The reason that she has gone before the parole board is because she is required to by California law. It may be a dog and pony show, but it's required by law. Charles Manson does still have to appear before the parole board at various increments as well. He stopped trying. The last couple times he shows up without an attorney and pretty much says, "We all know the outcome. Can I go back to my cell now?"

Just to prevent confusion between Kasabian and Patricia Krenwinkel ("Katie"). Linda Kasabian supposedly acted as a lookout at the Polanski residence, was along the night of the LaBianca murders because she was one of the few with a valid driver's license, was granted immunity and testified for the prosecution. Krenwinkel participated in the Tate as well as the LaBianca murders, and was convicted along with Manson, Atkins and Van Houten.

I saw a documentary on her a few years back and what struck me after I watched it was the fact that she was very young (I believe still in her teens), and was sucked into a crazy cult. There was nothing about her these days that came even close to what she was during that period in her life. I remember when the murders occurred, read the book about the crime, and am horrified about the savage violence. But I think about the stupidity of youth, particularly drug induced youth, and wonder if she should be given another chance.

I doubt that she would be paroled, but agree with others who say that she would have a very hard time adjusting back into society.