Need advice on L-lysine and/or Transfer Factor / probiotics

ldg

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We need to boost a foster kitty's immune system. We've had him on L-lysine, as we do all the cats. However, he's fighting off an FIV infection. It is actually possible for this to happen if he's got a strong enough immune system and isn't stressed.


As soon as we found out his FIV test results were a "transient positive," I ordered 4Life Transfer Factor Feline Complete.

Charlie had a problem with diarrhea before - and 1/2 capsule of Acidophilus in the morning and evening wet meals took care of that (started with 1/4 capsule and worked our way up). Fortiflora (which I tried before the acidophilus) made it worse, because it was not antibiotic-induced diarrhea.

Here's the problem - with the Transfer Factor, I don't know if I should continue with the L-lysine and/or the probiotic. I know the Transfer Factor HAS probiotics in it - but I don't know what they are or if they're in sufficient quantity to keep the diarrhea problem at bay without the actual probiotic (acidophilus) supplement.... or if they're like Fortiflora, and they're going to make his problem with diarrhea worse again - in which case I guess I'd have to stop using the Transfer Factor.


Do I just keep giving him the L-lysine and acidophilus and add Transfer Factor? Do I scale back the amount of probiotic (acidophilus) I'm giving him when I start Transfer Factor but not stop it? Do I replace the L-lysine with the Transfer Factor?

The vet wasn't of much help here, not being familiar with 4Life Transfer Factor.

Any thoughts would be so helpful!!!!!
 
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ldg

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OK - I finally found the list of ingredients in Transfer Factor. This is the specific l-lysine and probiotic part:

AMINO ACIDS
l-Lysine (monohydrochloride) 7 mg
d, l-Methionine 9 mg
l-Arginine 400 mcg

PROBIOTICS
Lactic acid bacteria 54 million CFU
Yeast (Saacharomyces cerevisiae) 27 million CFU

The probiotic part of FortiFlora is "Microorganisms (Min) (Enterococcus faecium)," so it looks like Transfer Factor shouldn't cause the same kind of problem that FortiFlora did with the diarrhea.


...but I still don't know if I should keep using the acidophilus, because I have no idea how it compares to the probiotics (lactic acid and yeast) in Transfer Factor.

I know the L-lysine amount in Transfer Factor is amazingly low - we use 250mg per day, so it seems we ought to just continue with that.


So... any thoughts on the probiotic part?


Again - thank you!
 

otto

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How much does Charlie weigh? He could be on 500 mg of l-lysine safely, I would think, as long as he is at least 7 pounds.

Can't advise on the probiotic, I use probios.
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by LDG

OK - I finally found the list of ingredients in Transfer Factor. This is the specific l-lysine and probiotic part:

AMINO ACIDS
l-Lysine (monohydrochloride) 7 mg
d, l-Methionine 9 mg
l-Arginine 400 mcg

all amino acids known to aid in immune support

PROBIOTICS
Lactic acid bacteria 54 million CFUI would want Which bacteria and in what numbers( ie look at human pro biotics the good ones list who , what and how much
Yeast (Saacharomyces cerevisiae) 27 million CFU this is not the yeast that is commonly used for probiotic.. thus it fall s under yeast and could cause issues IMHO

The probiotic part of FortiFlora is "Microorganisms (Min) (Enterococcus faecium) Please Google that one
," so it looks like Transfer Factor shouldn't cause the same kind of problem that FortiFlora did with the diarrhea.


...but I still don't know if I should keep using the acidophilus, because I have no idea how it compares to the probiotics (lactic acid and yeast) in Transfer Factor.

I know the L-lysine amount in Transfer Factor is amazingly low - we use 250mg per day, so it seems we ought to just continue with that.


So... any thoughts on the probiotic part?


Again - thank you!
What probiotic do you use? You can OD these and cause bowel issues ....

Lysine is very very hard to OD
 

carolina

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I have a tip about Transfer factor: Use the "Classic", instead of the "Plus". The Classic works as a Immune System Modulator, and the Plus increases the immune system too much, and if he has allergies, or gingivitis or stomatitis, common issues in cats with FIV, you can aggravate the problem. You do not want to stimulate the immune system - you want to modulate it. Meaning, you want to optimize it according to the body's need - up or down...

Just a tip from someone who used it quite a bit very successfully...
 
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ldg

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Carolina, I didn't order Transfer Factor classic or Plus - I ordered Transfer Factor Feline Complete: http://www.discovertransferfactor.co...e_Complete.pdf

OK - I was just doing some re-looking around, and apparently there is a Transfer Factor Feline Plus, and that's not what I ordered, so good.

As to the probiotic I'm using - I'm just using straight acidophilus; the vet recommended we try that, and the lady who owns the health food store recommended the specific brand - told her what it was for, and she was already familiar with its use in pets.

The recommended human dose (don't have bottle here, so don't know how much is in one pill) of acidophilus is 1-3 pills daily; I started Charlie at 1/4 pill, and worked up to 1/3 - 1/2 (I just eyeball it) of a pill twice a day. I just open the capsule and sprinkle it on his wet food, and he just eats it - same as the L-lysine. I just mix that into the wet food once a day, though with Charlie, I'll probably boost his amount to 500 mg/day.

Human dose of Lactic Acid Bateria (thank you Sharky!) is (3.0 × 10 to the 11th CFU/g) in one published study. The ingredients list on the TF is per 2g serving, so the LAB dose per serving at 54 million CFU that is 27 million CFU per gram - which is 2.7 x 10 to the 6th - MINISCULE in comparison to a human dose. I mean - these amounts are starting to look more like the principles of homeopathy rather than therapeutic doses - and I'm OK with that at this point LOL.

The yeast - have to put more work into that, but given the amounts of L-lysine and LAB, I'm gonna have to guess that again, this is a very small amount compared to something sold for people, so it may not interfere or be a problem.

It seems like I should just add the Transfer Factor to the mix - maybe start at 1/2 the dose and work up to the full dose - and adjust his acidophilus consumption based on how his gut reacts to the new ingredients (if at all).

...and I'd better start getting him used to having his teeth brushed.
We already add food grade hydrogen peroxide to the water (there is an "add this to the water for your pet's teeth health" product that costs a LOT of money - the vet told us it's basically just hydrogen peroxide. We add a full rounded 1/4 teaspoon of 3% food grade Hydrogen Peroxide to 2 C of distilled water. (This is also an immune system booster in addition to promoting healthy teeth and gums: http://www.dancingalgae.com/hydrogenperoxide.html).

Thank you all for your input!
 

pami

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Originally Posted by sharky

That site is inaccurate ... Naturally cats only have 3 strains of bacteria in their GI tracts... humans have 10 ... dogs have four
She wasn't saying that is how many cats or dogs had, she was saying new research shows that having 10 different strains in a probiotic was more beneficial than a lower amount.
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by Pami

She wasn't saying that is how many cats or dogs had, she was saying new research shows that having 10 different strains in a probiotic was more beneficial than a lower amount.
They cant utilize them... is is more a marketing claim, the site was selling it
... I will ask my vet to give me the studies she got at the continuing education she went too

Think about it 10 strains given to a animal who Naturally and Normally only has 3 or 4 ? that means 6 or 7 are wasted or worse yet colonize and cause overgrowth issues.. It is the same with humans
 

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Originally Posted by sharky

Think about it 10 strains given to a animal who Naturally and Normally only has 3 or 4 ? that means 6 or 7 are wasted or worse yet colonize and cause overgrowth issues.. It is the same with humans
My thumb will testify about what happens when bacteria runs amock. There was nothing in my thumb that doesn't normally populate a human body. The problem is the balance went out of whack and ultimately caused me to have 2 surgeries on it.

Sorry - can't help you with the original question. Sharky's post just struck a chord for me.
 

carolina

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Originally Posted by LDG

Carolina, I didn't order Transfer Factor classic or Plus - I ordered Transfer Factor Feline Complete: http://www.discovertransferfactor.co...e_Complete.pdf
Just a tip, next time buy the human Classic - it comes in 90 capsules, the capsules are tiny, much easier to feed, since it adds no taste to the food as oppose to the feline, and much much cheaper too... It is also pure; the feline has a whole bunch of stuff int it. For cats the dose is one capsule a day
 
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ldg

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I found an EXCELLENT article on the issue of FIV+ cats and diarrhea:

http://www.fivtherapy.com/chronic_diarrhea.htm

It specifically says:

"Probiotics and/or Prebiotics [7]( protection of intestinal epithelial cell and barrier function, prevention of enterotoxin binding to intestinal epithelial cells, and regulation of intestinal microbial environment. If antibiotics are the suspected cause, may be started immediately.) Sacchromyces boulardii, a probiotic yeast, has specific inhibitory activity against clostridium."

Now, the bummer is that the yeast in the Transfer Factor is not the probiotic yeast discussed here. But I'm still working on it....

I've found loads of articles referring to Acidophilus being a good probiotic for cats. It refers to something that helps promote higher lactic acid and higher bifidobacteria (being a good thing) - and the Transfer Factor does include the Lactic Acid (another pet article about probiotics said to be sure that any ingredient in a probiotic be at least 20 million CFU, and per gram, the Transfer Factor is 27 million CFU, but daily dose is 54 million CFU) - and the acidophilus I'm giving him includes the Bifidus.

However, since I bumped his lysine to 500mg, he's gotten diarrhea again! I'm going to take him back to the 250mg. Don't know if it was a coincidence or what - but nothing else changed, excpet his visits over here - perhaps the diarrhea is a delayed stress reaction? (Funny it started the day after we DIDN'T bring him over there though.... ???? ).
 
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ldg

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Originally Posted by Carolina

Just a tip, next time buy the human Classic - it comes in 90 capsules, the capsules are tiny, much easier to feed, since it adds no taste to the food as oppose to the feline, and much much cheaper too... It is also pure; the feline has a whole bunch of stuff int it. For cats the dose is one capsule a day
I'll take a look, Carolina, thank you!
 

pami

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Originally Posted by sharky

They cant utilize them... is is more a marketing claim, the site was selling it
... I will ask my vet to give me the studies she got at the continuing education she went too

Think about it 10 strains given to a animal who Naturally and Normally only has 3 or 4 ? that means 6 or 7 are wasted or worse yet colonize and cause overgrowth issues.. It is the same with humans
Probiotics do not work that way. You are not adding bad bacteria and it doesn't colonize and cause overgrowth. Probiotics are for the purpose of improving the balance of beneficial bacteria, yeast and fungi so that they can fight off of the bad bacteria, yeast and fungi in the gastrointestinal tract, so the immune system will be healthier.

The gastrointestinal tract starts at the mouth and ends at the rectum. Cats can have many strains of beneficial and non-beneficial bacteria in their intestines/colon/gut, mouth, etc., so I'm not sure what you are saying when you say, they only have 3 strains of bacteria.
 

carolina

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Originally Posted by LDG

I'll take a look, Carolina, thank you!
There is a lot of information here:

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.co....htm#direction
and here
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/tf/s/pets.htm

The second link specially

I have used them all - The Classic was really the best one for Bugsy, and it did make a World of difference. I was reading this and I see there are some vets that recommend the Plus for FIV kitties... I would only recommend it if he doesn't have gingivitis or allergies - regardless, this is really a wonderful line!!
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by Pami

Probiotics do not work that way. You are not adding bad bacteria and it doesn't colonize and cause overgrowth. Probiotics are for the purpose of improving the balance of beneficial bacteria, yeast and fungi so that they can fight off of the bad bacteria, yeast and fungi in the gastrointestinal tract, so the immune system will be healthier.

The gastrointestinal tract starts at the mouth and ends at the rectum. Cats can have many strains of beneficial and non-beneficial bacteria in their intestines/colon/gut, mouth, etc., so I'm not sure what you are saying when you say, they only have 3 strains of bacteria.
It has been thoroughly documented which strains and what types cats have.... Actually any bacteria can over growth look up candida, e coli etc... I unfortunately have volumes of info on this as I have had issues for decades...NON beneficial serves what purpose? If you need a Real explanation of how they work PM me...
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by Carolina

There is a lot of information here:

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.co....htm#direction
and here
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/tf/s/pets.htm

The second link specially

I have used them all - The Classic was really the best one for Bugsy, and it did make a World of difference. I was reading this and I see there are some vets that recommend the Plus for FIV kitties... I would only recommend it if he doesn't have gingivitis or allergies - regardless, this is really a wonderful line!!
Thank you that first link is hard to get info...
 

carolina

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Originally Posted by sharky

Thank you that first link is hard to get info...
Yep - definitely more on the second one...
I do think both are worthy reading though...
 
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