Question about Denamarin

blueyedgirl5946 · Jun 22, 2010

I think there are a few here who give this supplement to their cat for liver issues. l Muffin has been on it since Feb. 22nd. The reason is a high ALT reading. Other than that he has never displayed any signs of sickness or liver problems. In the last three or four weeks he has had several bouts of vomiting his food. It is always after his morning feeding. He gets the Denamarin first thing and waits at least one hour for his food. It has been after eating, always in the morning when he has upchucked his food. This is totally uncharacteristic of Muffin. Have any of you had a cat or dog on this supplement who has had vomiting problems taking it. Thanks.

violet · Jun 22, 2010

While the maker of this supplement insists that it has no side effects, that's really not the case. It can (and is known to) cause vomiting and diarrhea.

Have you discussed the vomiting with your vet?

You can do two things in this situation. Talk to your vet about reducing the dosage first, going to every other day instead of every day for instance. If that doesn't help, you can switch to regular milk thistle. Your vet will help you find the correct dosage for Muffin.

Frequent vomiting can lead to inflammation of the esophagus which is a very painful condition, so I would urge you to do whatever you have to, to stop the vomiting.

otto · Jun 23, 2010

It's actually the Denosyl in the Denamarin that reduces the ALT, not the milk thistle. You may want to talk to your vet about going to Denosyl rather than Denamarin and see how he does.

violet · Jun 23, 2010

Actually, Denosyl is a pure, patented, uniform, bioavailable, and stable salt of S-Adenosylmethionine (SAMe).
SAMe is what's causing vomiting.
Denamarin combines a pure and stabilized S-Adenosylmethionine (SAMe) with silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex.
There is SAMe in both supplements.
That's why, when there is vomiting, one has to get away from SAMe and use milk thistle.

Milk thistle:
http://www.peteducation.com/article....+1448&aid=2698
http://www.ehow.com/about_5463245_li...stle-cats.html

sharky · Jun 23, 2010

As has been noted Talk to the vet as NO drug is side effect free..

I have three currently with liver issues( note not as big as yours) but I do not use either of those drugs

otto · Jun 24, 2010

Denosyl and Denamarin, are not drugs, actually, but supplements.

violet · Jun 24, 2010

They are. But they are also prescription only and expensive. And they also have the troublesome ingredient SAMe, which can cause vomiting. No information anywhere as to why that is, which I find incredibly frustrating. (If there is such information, I haven't found it yet.)

Before Denosyl and Denamarin, etc, there was good old milk thistle (and some other supplements helpful for the liver). In fact, milk thistle does far more than just protect the liver. So I've been wondering for years why folks should have to buy expensive prescription only items instead.

Also very important (about milk thistle):

Human research studies have shown that it is more effective to administer this herb in three or four small portions over the day than in one large daily dose. When it is not possible to split the daily dose and administer the fractional portions three or four times a day, give it at least twice a day.

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...ow=volume4no07

Something else about SAMe - very important:

SAMe can cause irritation of the throat and esophagus if it is not quickly swallowed and moved to the stomach. This is especially true for cats. For this reason, give your pet a small amount (one teaspoon) of water after giving the SAMe to help your pet swallow. You may wish to try tuna water or other liquid your cat likes; however, do not use milk.

http://www.peteducation.com/article....+2103&aid=3062

Very important info about pilling to avoid serious, painful problems:

http://www.catinfo.org/pillingcats.htm

otto · Jun 24, 2010

SAMe can cause irritation of the throat and esophagus if it is not quickly swallowed and moved to the stomach. This is especially true for cats. For this reason, give your pet a small amount (one teaspoon) of water after giving the SAMe to help your pet swallow. You may wish to try tuna water or other liquid your cat likes; however, do not use milk.

yep, says essentially the same thing on the Denosyl box.

Regardless, I can't argue with the results. Tolly's ALT went from 578 to 116 on NutraMax brand Denosyl. That's enough for me.

violet · Jun 24, 2010

Of course. And if there was never any vomiting from it, this supplement really worked very well for you.

Did you ever find out why the ALT was so high in the first place?

blueyedgirl5946 · Jun 24, 2010

Denosyl is the Sam e only. Denamarin is Sam e and milk thistle. My vet says the milk thistle is usually what causes the upset stomach issue. We are not yet convinced that the few vomiting episodes Muffin did are connected with the supplement he is taking. I am monitoring him to see if he is doing is on a regular basis

sharky · Jun 24, 2010

Supplements are drugs without the legal issues or alot of the safety checks

... Any supplement or drug can and 99% do have side effects

Here is a dumb question ... have any of you tasted this stuff? I know milk thistle is a nasty taste to me ( the Sam e I have had is coated tablet so no idea)

violet · Jun 24, 2010

blueyedgirl5946.......It can be extremely frustrating to consider the possibility that a good and necessary medication or supplement might cause vomiting, but there is only one way to find out for sure what's going on. You have to experiment. With vomiting, the best thing is to stop a medication or supplement and see what happens. If the vomiting stops, one can then restart the medication or supplement. If vomiting is a side effect, or even just simple intolerance, it comes back very soon. The picture at this point is very clear.

Just a few articles/sites that mention vomiting:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5621755_de...e-effects.html

Side Effects
Denosyl is generally well-tolerated among users. One possible side effect associated with Denosyl use is vomiting. A veterinarian should be contacted immediately if side effects are experienced.

http://rogersparkdog.blogspot.com/20...denamarin.html

http://www.peteducation.com/article....+2103&aid=3062

What are the side effects of SAMe?
SAMe has been shown to be very safe, and there are usually no side effects if it is given correctly. Vomiting may occur in rare instances.

violet · Jun 24, 2010

One more piece of information on Denosyl.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_same.html

And this one also mentions vomiting:

SIDE EFFECTS

The occasional animal patient experiences vomiting after SAMe administration though other than this there are no known side effects of SAMe.

otto · Jun 24, 2010

Yes, supplements can have side affects, luckily, Tolly has not had any trouble with the denosyl and he doesn't taste it, I slip it right down his throat with a water chaser.

.

If I remember correctly Muffin was on the Denamarin for at least three months before this vomiting became an issue. It could be entirely unrelated. If it was the Denamarin, I would imagine the vomiting would be daily, after every dose. I don't think that is what is happening.

I'd be more inclined to think there is some scarf and barf going on. Blueeyedgirl, have you tried feeding smaller more frequent meals, in the morning? For instance, Mazy gets her morning kibble in half tablespoon increments, otherwise it comes right back up.

It could be hairball problems. In my experience, as cats get older, some develop more problems with hairballs than they had as youngsters.

An x ray might be helpful at this point, rather than taking him off a medicine that is helping greatly with his liver numbers.

.

sharky · Jun 24, 2010

Originally Posted by otto

Yes, supplements can have side affects, luckily, Tolly has not had any trouble with the denosyl and he doesn't taste it, I slip it right down his throat with a water chaser.

.

If I remember correctly Muffin was on the Denamarin for at least three months before this vomiting became an issue. It could be entirely unrelated. If it was the Denamarin, I would imagine the vomiting would be daily, after every dose. I don't think that is what is happening.

I'd be more inclined to think there is some scarf and barf going on. Blueeyedgirl, have you tried feeding smaller more frequent meals, in the morning? For instance, Mazy gets her morning kibble in half tablespoon increments, otherwise it comes right back up.

It could be hairball problems. In my experience, as cats get older, some develop more problems with hairballs than they had as youngsters.

An x ray might be helpful at this point, rather than taking him off a medicine that is helping greatly with his liver numbers.

.

the highlighted I think may be very important to discuss with the vet...

I know my RB Kandie had her first hairball at 16 yrs of age

blueyedgirl5946 · Jun 24, 2010

Thank everyone for their answers and PM's. I am feeding Muffin a little in the morning after his feeding and the rest later. Also, he has had some hair balls. I have some of the stuff in the tube and I am giving it to him more often now that he is shedding. He has not vomited in almost two weeks.

violet · Jun 24, 2010

I'm confused.....Two days ago you posted

In the last three or four weeks he has had several bouts of vomiting his food. It is always after his morning feeding. He gets the Denamarin first thing and waits at least one hour for his food. It has been after eating, always in the morning when he has upchucked his food. This is totally uncharacteristic of Muffin.

And just now today

Thank everyone for their answers and PM's. I am feeding Muffin a little in the morning after his feeding and the rest later. Also, he has had some hair balls. I have some of the stuff in the tube and I am giving it to him more often now that he is shedding. He has not vomited in almost two weeks.

He has not vomited in almost two weeks.

I'm sorry, and I do apologize, but this just doesn't make any sense to me. And I don't know what to think now.

blueyedgirl5946 · Jun 25, 2010

Violet, there is no apology needed. I don't know exactly when the vomiting took place and it was probably a three week period when he was doing it. It had been a while since I had seen any. However things have changed even now. Muffin vomited his food today. I was also watering the flower beds and found two spots that were where he had vomited. There was some hair in each of them. I am going to watch him on a daily basis and consult with my vet again. This is beginning to frustrate me. Thank you for your help and others too who have given input.

violet · Jun 25, 2010

blueyedgirl5946, thank you.

Muffin vomited his food today. I was also watering the flower beds and found two spots that were where he had vomited. There was some hair in each of them.

Okay, so the poor baby threw up again and you saw hair. If it was just hair but not one or more hair balls, I'd like to share something with you that I've learned from our vet. Hair in vomitus is an indication of an irritated stomach. It can be a sign of food intolerance or one of several signs of IBD.
IBD may be involved when a cat has issues with vomiting and/or other health problems, problems with elevated liver enzymes, for instance. Sometimes an elevated ALT is the only definite warning sign. Other times there are several signs, elevated ALT, vomiting, etc. In any case, with an elevated ALT there is a possibility a cat may have triad syndrome. (Always best to rule out that possibility with certain tests.)
I'll include some very basic information for you.

Diet plays an important role in the treatment of any disease that involves the liver. Keeping the fat content of the diet relatively low and avoiding dry food can be very, very helpful. These two precautions alone can lower the ALT level. Sometimes vets see a connection between liver disease and a particular brand of food. That's a very scary thought. (They are also aware of a connection between urinary problems and certain brands of food. I found that out several years ago.)

Anyway, if at all possible. I would urge you to try to feed canned food instead of dry. That would be very helpful.

Info:

When you click on this link
http://www.vetinfo.com/catliver.html
please scroll down to
Liver disease in cats- "triad syndrome" or "triaditis" possible
Keep in mind, this is strictly for information. And since it's excellent information, the rest of the page is also worth reading.

I don't want to go into this too deeply, so I'll just include the link to my favorite article about hair balls because it's great info
http://www.suevet.com/cat_vomiting.html

And I'd just like to add, in your situation it would be a very good idea to go in for a CBC and start with that. Something may show up in the results (sign of inflammation or infection for instance) that your vet would then want to follow up on.

sharky · Jun 26, 2010

Originally Posted by Violet

blueyedgirl5946, thank you.

Okay, so the poor baby threw up again and you saw hair. If it was just hair but not one or more hair balls, I'd like to share something with you that I've learned from our vet. Hair in vomitus is an indication of an irritated stomach. It can be a sign of food intolerance or one of several signs of IBD.
IBD may be involved when a cat has issues with vomiting and/or other health problems, problems with elevated liver enzymes, for instance. Sometimes an elevated ALT is the only definite warning sign. Other times there are several signs, elevated ALT, vomiting, etc. In any case, with an elevated ALT there is a possibility a cat may have triad syndrome. (Always best to rule out that possibility with certain tests.)
I'll include some very basic information for you.

Diet plays an important role in the treatment of any disease that involves the liver. Keeping the fat content of the diet relatively low and avoiding dry food can be very, very helpful. These two precautions alone can lower the ALT level. Sometimes vets see a connection between liver disease and a particular brand of food. That's a very scary thought. (They are also aware of a connection between urinary problems and certain brands of food. I found that out several years ago.)

Anyway, if at all possible. I would urge you to try to feed canned food instead of dry. That would be very helpful.

Info:

When you click on this link
http://www.vetinfo.com/catliver.html
please scroll down to
Liver disease in cats- "triad syndrome" or "triaditis" possible
Keep in mind, this is strictly for information. And since it's excellent information, the rest of the page is also worth reading.

I don't want to go into this too deeply, so I'll just include the link to my favorite article about hair balls because it's great info
http://www.suevet.com/cat_vomiting.html

And I'd just like to add, in your situation it would be a very good idea to go in for a CBC and start with that. Something may show up in the results (sign of inflammation or infection for instance) that your vet would then want to follow up on.

Liver conditions and fat content is all relative... Having found myself dealing with this multiple species(3 so far) .... I can tell you in None of the cases did the standard treatment work... ie work with your Vet and Your cat

I completely agree diet is key but finding a base cause or likely cause will aid you in the correct diet for your cat.. Ie dry food is less known as a culprit for some abnormal results than a newer "close" to nature diet many are using

Question about Denamarin

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