Question about Denamarin

While the maker of this supplement insists that it has no side effects, that's really not the case. It can (and is known to) cause vomiting and diarrhea.

Have you discussed the vomiting with your vet?

You can do two things in this situation. Talk to your vet about reducing the dosage first, going to every other day instead of every day for instance. If that doesn't help, you can switch to regular milk thistle. Your vet will help you find the correct dosage for Muffin.

Frequent vomiting can lead to inflammation of the esophagus which is a very painful condition, so I would urge you to do whatever you have to, to stop the vomiting.

It's actually the Denosyl in the Denamarin that reduces the ALT, not the milk thistle. You may want to talk to your vet about going to Denosyl rather than Denamarin and see how he does.

Actually, Denosyl is a pure, patented, uniform, bioavailable, and stable salt of S-Adenosylmethionine (SAMe).
SAMe is what's causing vomiting.
Denamarin combines a pure and stabilized S-Adenosylmethionine (SAMe) with silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex.
There is SAMe in both supplements.
That's why, when there is vomiting, one has to get away from SAMe and use milk thistle.

Milk thistle:
http://www.peteducation.com/article....+1448&aid=2698
http://www.ehow.com/about_5463245_li...stle-cats.html

As has been noted Talk to the vet as NO drug is side effect free..

I have three currently with liver issues( note not as big as yours) but I do not use either of those drugs

Denosyl and Denamarin, are not drugs, actually, but supplements.

They are. But they are also prescription only and expensive. And they also have the troublesome ingredient SAMe, which can cause vomiting. No information anywhere as to why that is, which I find incredibly frustrating. (If there is such information, I haven't found it yet.)

Before Denosyl and Denamarin, etc, there was good old milk thistle (and some other supplements helpful for the liver). In fact, milk thistle does far more than just protect the liver. So I've been wondering for years why folks should have to buy expensive prescription only items instead.

Also very important (about milk thistle):

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...ow=volume4no07

Something else about SAMe - very important:

http://www.peteducation.com/article....+2103&aid=3062

Very important info about pilling to avoid serious, painful problems:

http://www.catinfo.org/pillingcats.htm

yep, says essentially the same thing on the Denosyl box.

Regardless, I can't argue with the results. Tolly's ALT went from 578 to 116 on NutraMax brand Denosyl. That's enough for me.

Of course. And if there was never any vomiting from it, this supplement really worked very well for you.

Did you ever find out why the ALT was so high in the first place?

Supplements are drugs without the legal issues or alot of the safety checks... Any supplement or drug can and 99% do have side effects

Here is a dumb question ... have any of you tasted this stuff? I know milk thistle is a nasty taste to me ( the Sam e I have had is coated tablet so no idea)

blueyedgirl5946.......It can be extremely frustrating to consider the possibility that a good and necessary medication or supplement might cause vomiting, but there is only one way to find out for sure what's going on. You have to experiment. With vomiting, the best thing is to stop a medication or supplement and see what happens. If the vomiting stops, one can then restart the medication or supplement. If vomiting is a side effect, or even just simple intolerance, it comes back very soon. The picture at this point is very clear.

Just a few articles/sites that mention vomiting:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5621755_de...e-effects.html

http://rogersparkdog.blogspot.com/20...denamarin.html

http://www.peteducation.com/article....+2103&aid=3062

One more piece of information on Denosyl.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_same.html

And this one also mentions vomiting:

Yes, supplements can have side affects, luckily, Tolly has not had any trouble with the denosyl and he doesn't taste it, I slip it right down his throat with a water chaser. .

If I remember correctly Muffin was on the Denamarin for at least three months before this vomiting became an issue. It could be entirely unrelated. If it was the Denamarin, I would imagine the vomiting would be daily, after every dose. I don't think that is what is happening.

I'd be more inclined to think there is some scarf and barf going on. Blueeyedgirl, have you tried feeding smaller more frequent meals, in the morning? For instance, Mazy gets her morning kibble in half tablespoon increments, otherwise it comes right back up.

It could be hairball problems. In my experience, as cats get older, some develop more problems with hairballs than they had as youngsters.

An x ray might be helpful at this point, rather than taking him off a medicine that is helping greatly with his liver numbers.

.

the highlighted I think may be very important to discuss with the vet...

I know my RB Kandie had her first hairball at 16 yrs of age

I'm confused.....Two days ago you posted

And just now today

He has not vomited in almost two weeks.


I'm sorry, and I do apologize, but this just doesn't make any sense to me. And I don't know what to think now.

blueyedgirl5946, thank you.

Okay, so the poor baby threw up again and you saw hair. If it was just hair but not one or more hair balls, I'd like to share something with you that I've learned from our vet. Hair in vomitus is an indication of an irritated stomach. It can be a sign of food intolerance or one of several signs of IBD.
IBD may be involved when a cat has issues with vomiting and/or other health problems, problems with elevated liver enzymes, for instance. Sometimes an elevated ALT is the only definite warning sign. Other times there are several signs, elevated ALT, vomiting, etc. In any case, with an elevated ALT there is a possibility a cat may have triad syndrome. (Always best to rule out that possibility with certain tests.)
I'll include some very basic information for you.

Diet plays an important role in the treatment of any disease that involves the liver. Keeping the fat content of the diet relatively low and avoiding dry food can be very, very helpful. These two precautions alone can lower the ALT level. Sometimes vets see a connection between liver disease and a particular brand of food. That's a very scary thought. (They are also aware of a connection between urinary problems and certain brands of food. I found that out several years ago.)

Anyway, if at all possible. I would urge you to try to feed canned food instead of dry. That would be very helpful.

Info:

When you click on this link
http://www.vetinfo.com/catliver.html
please scroll down to
Liver disease in cats- "triad syndrome" or "triaditis" possible
Keep in mind, this is strictly for information. And since it's excellent information, the rest of the page is also worth reading.

I don't want to go into this too deeply, so I'll just include the link to my favorite article about hair balls because it's great info
http://www.suevet.com/cat_vomiting.html

And I'd just like to add, in your situation it would be a very good idea to go in for a CBC and start with that. Something may show up in the results (sign of inflammation or infection for instance) that your vet would then want to follow up on.

Liver conditions and fat content is all relative... Having found myself dealing with this multiple species(3 so far) .... I can tell you in None of the cases did the standard treatment work... ie work with your Vet and Your cat

I completely agree diet is key but finding a base cause or likely cause will aid you in the correct diet for your cat.. Ie dry food is less known as a culprit for some abnormal results than a newer "close" to nature diet many are using

Liver conditions and fat content is all relative....

Keeping the fat content of the diet relatively low (cats do need a certain amount of fat in their diet in order to stay healthy) is very important and it makes a huge big difference for a cat that is for some unknown reason susceptible to liver problems. (I seem to have one of those.)

dry food is less known as a culprit

Key words: less known. Diet change and test results: proof.

Also, since one particular brand of food has been linked to hepatic lipidosis in cats and certain diets are known to cause liver damage, it's not unreasonable to consider diet as a possible base cause when no other cause can be found. When it comes to liver damage for which there is no good explanation, both canned and dry food must be looked at closely as possible contributing factors.

a newer "close" to nature diet

Unbalanced fad diets are known to cause liver damage, in fact significant liver damage in some cases. Also seizures and dangerously elevated phosphorus levels. All of this damage can be reversed with a nutritionally complete, balanced diet.

I can tell you in None of the cases did the standard treatment work...

Which can translate to: seek help from a very good, very knowledgeable holistic vet.
(Holistic vets can do some incredible things for liver disease.)

Liver conditions and fat content is all relative....

Keeping the fat content of the diet relatively low (cats do need a certain amount of fat in their diet in order to stay healthy) is very important and it makes a huge big difference for a cat that is for some unknown reason susceptible to liver problems. (I seem to have one of those.)

Like kidney disease before it .. so far liver disease is poorly understood and thus in many cases poorly diagnosed and managed... I can note Several cases in MY home that "low fat" actually made it worse( what low fat is also is relative, kinda like low protein)...



dry food is less known as a culprit

Key words: less known. Diet change and test results: proof. Proof and diet unfortunately are speculative in this type of issue( do mostly to the other factors that change

Also, since one particular brand of food has been linked to hepatic lipidosis in cats and certain diets are known to cause liver damage, it's not unreasonable to consider diet as a possible base cause when no other cause can be found. When it comes to liver damage for which there is no good explanation, both canned and dry food must be looked at closely as possible contributing factors.

a newer "close" to nature diet

Trust me many many foods are suspect, Maybe one day like the ash of yester years we will find out what causes a food to initiate or exacerbate liver issues.. I would love to see Proof of a food that has been documented for causing lipidosis as would many on here so they can avoid it ..

Unbalanced fad diets are known to cause liver damage, in fact significant liver damage in some cases. Also seizures and dangerously elevated phosphorus levels. All of this damage can be reversed with a nutritionally complete, balanced diet.

I am actually not talking about Fade or Uneducated owner diets... But very balanced, biologically appropriate diets that can skew test results, often giving false positives where the animal actually has no deficiency or disease.. I would love to see proof of reversal... I can say that is a word I would rarely use, it is a lot like saying cure the incurable... Seizures in many animals are able to be controlled via diet depending what the origin truly is

I can tell you in None of the cases did the standard treatment work...

Which can translate to: seek help from a very good, very knowledgeable holistic vet.
(Holistic vets can do some incredible things for liver disease.)[/quote]
100% agree , but make sure the knowledge is truly based in science as many claim to know and seem to know but do not... Of course in my case it was also standard holistic that did not work, for Three different species


WOW I love the hairball article... that is one I need to print out for a few folks

Just a couple of thoughts very quickly.

Poorly understood....... mainly because the obvious - an individual's unique reaction to foods, food additives, other chemicals, even vaccinations, based on the individuals unique body chemistry is being ignored. An individualized approach looks at all the factors that can be involved and works with all those factors in mind rather than ignoring them and trying to treat with one of the few standard approaches.

Relatively low and low: not the same thing. Two very different things. However, your experience proves the need for the individualized approach.

I have to say, nothing speculative here. Diet change involving one particular food. Specific change, very clear test results. No other factors involved, meaning no meds, no supplements. Nothing else to influence the test results in any way. Retest specifically to find out if diet change had an effect.

I know.

They already know some very important things, just like they know some very important things about the connection between food and diabetes. In fact, it's quite an eye-opener when glucose and ALT go down at the same time (after a diet change) in a cat that had elevated glucose and elevated ALT as well.

I suppose you could find and contact vets who have experience with this issue. And then a vet would have to be willing to come here and talk about it. It would be inconceivable for any of us to name a food and warn folks against it. It would be unfair to the manufacturer. And, no doubt, it would create a legal matter.

False positive? Absolutely not. When liver enzymes become elevated, that's very real. The liver is reacting to something. And there is a very real reason. Food, supplements, meds, all can cause the liver enzymes to go up. Changing food, stopping supplements, etc, whatever is the exact cause, makes the enzymes go back down. A relatively short-term problem can be corrected/reversed in as little as thirty days. If the wrong diet or supplement was used for a very long time, the damage might be very serious.

What I was talking about here were seizures caused by an unbalanced diet. Not anything else, no other underlying cause. Illness, symptoms, brought on by a specific diet change. Change to an unbalanced diet affecting previously perfectly healthy animals with previously perfect test results. If you ask vets who treat such animals they will tell you the animals respond very well to diet change that corrects the imbalances.

Treatment has to be individualized in order to work. In some cases the holistic vet has to try many, many different things to get results. Some don't have the patience and, one would have to suspect, some don't have the knowledge. So it's the standard approach and then nothing if that didn't work.

Violet it would be very helpful if you would please tell us this food you keep mentioning that is "known" to cause liver problems.

What food is it, and links to information telling us why it's bad would be very helpful, especially to those of us who deal with liver problems in cats every day.

The above would be very helpful .... and if it is a legal issue: Has it actually Not been proven by a legit source?



Poorly understood....... mainly because the obvious - an individual's unique reaction to foods, food additives, other chemicals, even vaccinations, based on the individuals unique body chemistry is being ignored. An individualized approach looks at all the factors that can be involved and works with all those factors in mind rather than ignoring them and trying to treat with one of the few standard approaches.

Relatively low and low: not the same thing. Two very different things. However, your experience proves the need for the individualized approach.
I suggest re reading your writing as it makes some of the rest not make sense.. It is actually the same thing as my low and 3 vets lows are likely at least 2 different numbers , likely 3 to 4... I had one vet tell me low fat was 30%


I have to say, nothing speculative here. Diet change involving one particular food. Specific change, very clear test results. No other factors involved, meaning no meds, no supplements. Nothing else to influence the test results in any way. Retest specifically to find out if diet change had an effect.
I would wonder if one was dealing with a good vet who had a reasonable education if they only did a diet change.

They already know some very important things, just like they know some very important things about the connection between food and diabetes. In fact, it's quite an eye-opener when glucose and ALT go down at the same time (after a diet change) in a cat that had elevated glucose and elevated ALT as well.
If a cat has elevated liver and something , yes it would be easy to say diet fixed it but likely this animal is also on Meds...



I suppose you could find and contact vets who have experience with this issue. And then a vet would have to be willing to come here and talk about it. It would be inconceivable for any of us to name a food and warn folks against it. It would be unfair to the manufacturer. And, no doubt, it would create a legal matter.
I suspect many will stop reading on this matter as you are Not giving proof to back up a claim.... Many on here have or are dealing with this issue... I have dealt with no fewer than 10 vets on this issue and never has a brand been suspect.


False positive? Absolutely not. When liver enzymes become elevated, that's very real. The liver is reacting to something. And there is a very real reason. Food, supplements, meds, all can cause the liver enzymes to go up. Changing food, stopping supplements, etc, whatever is the exact cause, makes the enzymes go back down. A relatively short-term problem can be corrected/reversed in as little as thirty days. If the wrong diet or supplement was used for a very long time, the damage might be very serious.
This is where Years and Multiple animals experience comes into play.. I does happen alot... I did not know either till a discussion with three vets over a Very young cat with off results.Reacting does Not always = problem .....





Treatment has to be individualized in order to work. In some cases the holistic vet has to try many, many different things to get results. Some don't have the patience and, one would have to suspect, some don't have the knowledge. So it's the standard approach and then nothing if that didn't work.[/quote]

I agree many do not have patience whether holistic or traditional

otto

I don't know any details, nothing about why that particular food might be bad. So I don't have anything, any specifics that is, to share.
I just mentioned this to illustrate that vets know about some things we don't.

sharky

I'm not trying to and don't intend to. Just mentioned something because it's real and food for thought.

Please think about what you're saying. One might think you're trying to criticize or disparage a vet you don't know anything about.