Help! Charlie is FIV+

Enjoying all the updates!

It sounds like everything is going very well. Charles is just anxious about the unknown, just like we, humans are too.

Marina

Originally Posted by icklemiss21

Still amazing for having that many cats around, I remember letting mine meet a kitten I was fostering and I could have swore they thought she was a 6ft dog bent on attacking them the way they acted (thankfuly they are better around adult cats)

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Funny enough, other than Ming Loy (because we lived in a house), we've never done a slow intro before. With the RV, it always just - throw 'em into the mix. Of course - they were less than a year old themselves when we started fostering, and we had a foster here more or less all the time for the first few years (a couple of them stayed on )... they got used to them coming and going. Ming Loy was harder - because in the house, they all split up with all that space - they stopped being snuggly with each other, and there was enough room for everyone to throw a snit - if they wanted - about space(s).

We brought Billy inside when he was about 2 - but that was the first adult they had thrown into the mix, and his intro was.... four years after Ming Loy, with no fostering in between (such a waste of a house!) because of Tuxie's health.

The scent swapping - without a cat being physically present! - seems to have REALLY worked. It obviously totally desensitized them to his smell - so when a cat finally appeared with it, they weren't surprised (or something). Totally different than in a home, when they KNOW someone's in that room.

It's been very interesting.

We had a lot to do today, so CK Charlie and the gang are getting a day off.

I read your whole thread and I'm thrilled things are going so well. As an owner of one FIV+ girl and 3 non-FIV boys I am very interested in all your updates. My Callie seems very healthy and happy indoors and eats like a champ. The 3 boys get along great and they all seem to like her but they just overwhelm her at times.( for example...I notice it less and less but there was a time all 3 would follow her down cellar to the litter box area) The poor girl..... they would just sit and stare at her. LOL She hisses sometimes if they get in her face but no one has ever drawn blood and she has been here since October. My son and I notice if we leave them home alone and come back they are almost always all in the same room just chilling. LOL. I wonder if I should have her re-tested with the 2nd test you had done? Not that it really matters I guess.........

Keep us posted and good luck!

Personally, the test is kinda expensive if you are ok with the fact she is FIV+ and are happy to deal with it, but its nice knowing for sure.

In Laurie's case, knowing means a big different to Charlie who would have been euthanised at most shelters (thankfully the rescue let her know instead of making a decision themselves since they had agreed to take him)

Originally Posted by icklemiss21

Personally, the test is kinda expensive if you are ok with the fact she is FIV+ and are happy to deal with it, but its nice knowing for sure.

In Laurie's case, knowing means a big different to Charlie who would have been euthanised at most shelters (thankfully the rescue let her know instead of making a decision themselves since they had agreed to take him)

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Amen to that, Eithne. They could have taken him and just euthanized him. I don't know what they would have done with his "transient positive" - I will ask next time we chat, actually.

Lily, I don't know how much it costs where you are. Here it was $179 for the Western Blot. If you can afford it, it's worth it, because then you'll know what to expect coming down the pike. If you don't normally take your cats for an annual dental, Callie will definitely need that at a minimum because of the gum disease problems FIV+ cats usually have. Any signs of illness, and she'll need to go to the vet, and if she's sick with anything, it will need to be treated more aggressively. Cats with FIV often develop problems with chronic diarrhea, and that would need work to control/manage.

So.... it's an expensive test. What you may want to consider first is just getting another snap test to see if that continues to indicate FIV+ (if she never had a second one done). If she was less than six months old when she had the snap test, it is highly likely it could have been a false positive! The tests aren't just reliable in kittens under that age.

for your girl!

Hi Laurie,
I have been following your thread and am amazed how you turn tough situations into such orderly experiences. How do you do it with all of your kitties? Charlie is so lucky to have you. He is soo sweet. Just love his smile. I've learned a lot from all your expert experiences. In my book I consider you the "Cat Whisperer". You make cat intro's sound so easy.

My two kitties are coming along slow but sure. I keep Tiger in his training cage and let Buddy out of his cage and he runs up and they sniff noses and then he rubs all over Tigers cage. Tiger doesn't hiss or grawl anymore. Hopfully they will be ready to get together in a week or so. Tiger is getting less fearful of Buddy in his cage when he goes down in the basm't.

Lots of luck with Charlie and your bunch. You are one special person for doing all this. God Bless.

Originally Posted by LDG

He's such a good boy, our Charlie Brown tabby! No complaints being poked and prodded, having blood taken - for both the Western Blot (FIV confirmation) and regular full blood work.

I did ask about being able to hear him breathing sometimes. He isn't congested and has no signs of anything in his lungs, no sign of asthma, so the conclusion is that most likely he had a respiratory illness as a kitten that damaged his turbinates. Nothing that affects anything other than him sounding a little "nasaly" at times.

BTW, before we went, I was able to clip his claws in two go-rounds with a few treats (one full paw each time) - he didn't get bitey or hissy.

The vet has worked with him from the very beginning, and is amazed at his transformation. He is just a love bug sweetie now!

We'll get blood work results tomorrow; FIV confirmation in 5-7 days, so before Jul 4 weekend.

We did discuss the option of removing his canine teeth if necessary (depending upon how intros go) vs putting him back outside... she is going to ask on whatever vet forum, and will get back to us on that (I was asking about actual statistical probability of passing FIV to Tuxedo specifically because of his compromised immune system) if we have the canines removed, but she's had a number of people do it before, and definitely does and has recommended it over killing him or putting him back out.

FIV kitties tend to have a lot of problems with their teeth over time - many end up toothless. No reason to pull them all before they need to be (though he'll need annual dentals at a minimum) - the canines are the only real threat. The disease is passed via deep tissue wounds only.

We'll see.

Hopefully it won't come to that - but we're in such a small space with a kitty with a compromised immune system - so it's nice to know it's probably an option if we need to consider it.

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RE: Tooth removal
if it ever did come to that - instead of removing the teeth, why couldn't they just grind them down? There's probably a reason, but just thought I'd ask.

Removing good teeth is absolutely a last resort "solution", I agree!

I'm just now back to this thread, so will see if the test results came back yet.
g

Originally Posted by GloriaJH

RE: Tooth removal
if it ever did come to that - instead of removing the teeth, why couldn't they just grind them down? There's probably a reason, but just thought I'd ask.

Removing good teeth is absolutely a last resort "solution", I agree!

I'm just now back to this thread, so will see if the test results came back yet.
g

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Did you do this for your FIV+ kitty so he can't infect others while outside?

Completely not a vet opinion (although I will ask her next time I speak to her, just out of curiousity) wouldn't grinding them down make it harder to see when there is disease on them etc. Boomer has poor teeth quality, and it was diagnosed when our vet seen tiny black spots on his teeth although they appeared to be healthy otherwise and I would have put it down to some catnip on the teeth (no gingivitis etc).

Considering the issues FIV cats are likely to have with their teeth (and gums), I would be worried about grinding them down, and inflammation of the gum could cover over a ground down tooth?

I meant just grinding down the sharp points - not the whole tooth.

If we're concerned about deep bites, I imagine that it's the canine teeth that would be the most lethal because of their length ??? so making them shorter might be an option ???

It's certainly worth asking about, but I'm pretty sure the thinking is that FIV+ cats have so many issues with their teeth and gingivitis/other gum diseases. I originally asked about removing all the teeth, because most FIV+ cats end up toothless (if given proper frequent dental care) anyway. My thinking was if kitty is going to end up toothless, why not just get rid of them for two reasons: 1) he's young and healthy now, so much better able to heal and recover, and 2) the safety of our cats, because we have an immunocompromised cat and they're all indoor only, and he would be as well.

I know TNR protocols aren't to test, but personally, I came to the decision I can't knowingly allow an FIV+ kitty outside - not only because of his ability to infect other cats, but also because it exposes him to so many things that over time his immune system won't be able to manage. So for his own health I can't see allowing it.

The vet was going to ask on whatever vet forum(s) about the tooth issue. She didn't suggest grinding down his canines and it didn't occur to me. I don't know where the nerve is in them, maybe it has to do with that? But we haven't rounded back up on the issue yet, so I'll ask.

On a separate note, we had our first hiss today.

Charlie seems more nervous, actually, each time he comes over. At first, anyway.

That said, once he relaxes a little bit, he does explore new places each time. Today it was the front dash behind the curtains. He went up there, and couldn't figure out how to get behind the curtain. I showed him one of the entrances (at a place where there was a cat bed with no cat in it). He was FASCINATED with the gigantic view and all the activity outside (4th of July weekend, a lot going on). But Spooky was in the bed right next to that one. She just watched him for a while with big eyes... then stood up and slowly approached him. He basically ignored her until she was right in his face, nose outstretched. Then they sniffed noses. "WHAT good kitties!" She leaned down to sniff his face and into his neck - and he sniffed her ear. Then he got distracted by something outside and put his head down a little bit... and she started grooming the top of his head!!!!! He then put his head up and just looked at her - and she was going to groom him again, and he hissed a big "no more." She pulled her head back - and was going to ignore him and do it anyway - and he put up his paw to thwack her - and she backed off.

He decided to leave the window, and didn't run, but sauntered over to sit under the couch. Now - that happens to frequently be a Spooky spot. So she followed him. We have like a cat cube there - but it's longer, a rectangle. So I pushed it to block her entering. She was determined - so I grabbed a brush. That distracted her.

Anyway - good interaction with Billy. They were on the back of the couch together enjoying a squirrel in the bird feeder, and he let Bill smell all over him (back turned LOL).

He also encountered Lazlo today. Laz was in the overhead compartments (by the cat trees) asleep. Charlie had been lounging on the upper shelf of one of the trees. Lazlo uses the entrance to the cabinets that goes to the other tree, so when he got up and came out - he first did the meatloaf on the open cabinet and watched Charlie for a little while. They looked at each other, but not a staredown. Lazlo stretched his way out of the cabinet (putting feet on the top of the roof of the tree house, stretching and yawning), then jumped down to the platform below Charlie - and had a good stretch (standing up pawing on the tree house tree). This put his back to Charlie - but his tail was up, and Laz (like Shel) is tall with a huge tail, so it was flopping onto Charlie's platform. He just kept stretching while Charlie inspected his tail.

Laz jumped over to the couch, and headed up to his spot in the front dash window.

Charlie was over here for close to 5 hours today. I fussed over the other cats as they came out or near Charlie - but otherwise ignored him and everyone. Played with him (and Shelly, alternately) for about the last half hour.

Laurie, I love your updates, everything is going very well. I wonder why he gets more nervous...

A 5 hour visit is a long visit, big kudos to Charles and the rest of the babies for cooperating. Does he cry when you take him to his place? I meant to ask you for a while and I kept forgetting.

Marina

Nope, he doesn't cry. He's always happy we took him "home" though, and we have a good, long, hard play session to work off the stress (or some of it).

That said - any time I go to put him in the crate, I pick him up, he doesn't struggle, and now when I go to put him in it, he doesn't put his feet out trying to prevent me getting him in there, so go figure.

Today we brought him over in the morning. It's 95 out, so we figured we'd save on the electricity (don't need to run the air conditioning without him over there).

Today he didn't want to come out of the crate. So I left him in it with the door open. He emerged - to head straight for the litter box in the darkest corner. He was there so long I went to check - he was lying in it. I figured - let him be. I played with the other kitties. They eventually dispersed, and he came out.

He's had a big day (and he's still here. ). Been a lot of different places. Encountered all the kitties - no issues at all.

The only kitty he hadn't "met" was Tuxedo. Charlie was plopped in the middle of the floor - Tuxedo could have gone up and over the couch to get to the litter box, but he decided to finally meet Charlie. He slowly walked up, tail up, and when close enough, leaned out his head. Charlie lifted his head up, and they sniffed noses. Charlie then kind of put his head down... and Tuxedo licked the top of his head! Tuxie chewed on his ear a bit (Tuxie does that) - they sniffed noses again - then Tuxie licked him on the head a couple more times, and Tuxie went on his way to the litter box.

Had some play with Billy and Charlie (not them playing together, but a foot from each other, swapping which cat the toy was going to).

Fed all of them a meal together. Charlie's used to jumping up on the counter when I make a meal, and the cats are not allowed on the counter here. The end is blocked with water bottles, and Charlie couldn't figure out how to get on LOL. I fed them all in the right order, Charlie last. He ate on the couch.

He is now curled up on the cat tree in the corner between the window and the wall, sleeping, with Billy sprawled out on the window seats.

Had Charlie over here all day. Can't believe how well things are going, actually. Of course it couldn't ALL go well.... and Billy now growls at him sometimes. Don't know what's up with that - but OF COURSE it had to be out of left field, and the kitty we LEAST expected would be a problem.

About to take him "home" to his trailer. But thought I'd post dinner:





Tuxedo eats in various places - often on the window seats, but tonight he ate on the couch.

Oh - in the first picture, you can see Billy's tail in the bottom right-hand corner of the picture. In the second one, you can see his back in the reflection in the mirror (sort of because the text of Flowerbelle's name covers him up LOL).

The growling was before dinner, so it wasn't the height issue. Everyone's eating where they normally eat. The only displacement was Lazlo - and I moved him up into the cabinet from the shelf where Charlie is a couple of days ago (since Charlie seemed to be comfortable on that platform, I figured that when it came to eating, it'd just be easier to move Lazlo higher and let Charlie be where he's comfy).

I have just now read this thread. I think it is really amazing how well everyone has accepted Charlie and him accepting them. That was so sweet how Spooky and Tuxie both reached out to him. It was a little sad that he hissed at Spooky. I guess he hasn't had that kind of touch in so long. I hope he eats up every second of it, once he settles in completely.

I know in my home, the one who licks the head his the nurturer, Mom.

It sounds like you and Gary have done everything right with the intros, put everything into it so no one would be stressed and stayed right there with them, watching all signs. A home full of lucky babies, truly

Oh, Billy is jealous , he will have to work that out because I know you love on him and everybody else all the time, so it's not from lack of attention. He senses both of you love Charles very much and he is not OK with it - for now...Is Billy more mama's baby or daddy's baby?

What a beautiful "kitty" tree photo, it made me smile !

I think your babies "listened" to your talks about how Charles needs a home just like they did a while back, and they all decided that your request sounds fair . I am extremely happy for you, this is huge!

I love the ear chewing thing, so this is Tuxie's social signature, I can picture him doing that...

You must be so happy, now you can focus on his health and getting him a home. It will all work out

Marina

Billy is momma's boy.

He was also probably upset because the path to "his" corner was blocked as were the holes that lead under the bed - and he was lying right in front of that space when Charlie walked past him into the bedroom. (We didn't want to "lose" Charlie in the RV - some spaces are tough for people to get to). ...but he probably knew that was Charlie's fault.

We found out we can have the trailer through the third weekend in July! So we can move ahead more slowly. Didn't bring Charlie over today, just worked on positive associations for Bill (the best one yet - holding a wad of Charlie's hair taken out of the brush, letting Billy sniff it, and then letting him lick a little butter off my finger while holding Charlie's "scent" in the other hand. ).

Other than with Charlie's scent, I didn't go out of my way to give Billy much attention today. I want him to get LOTS of attention when Charlie's here.

I know Charlie's a little uncomfortable here (he is MUCH more reserved when he plays here - I've got him really running around at "his" place) - but I think he's ready to live full time with other beings. He's not happy today when I/we leave. (Of course I'm sure he'd prefer we just moved in over there LOL).