Help! Charlie is FIV+

We've never had a cat test positive for FIV or FeLV, so this came as a total shock.

We've been feeding & trapping the ferals again (didn't for some time because of Gary's health and our finances. No health or funds to speuter, no food). Of course this time around - they're not all feral. Now that we are in the RV with 7 cats and cannot foster here.

We used to foster - but that was when it was just 3 or 4 cats in here. Then we moved into a house, we TNRd cats but didn't get involved in fostering because of Tuxedo....

....and now that we're TNRing again - and can't foster - it turns out we're turning up what feels like a lot of friendly cats (considering all the older ones we came across in the past were feral-feral, so we just fostered kittens). But this is #3 this year - and when we first were back in the RV Park, there were Billy and Bing.

So anyway, our vet introduced us to the a local foster/adoption network, and when they have space in their foster network, they've been taking our friendlies. They adopted out #1, and are still fostering #2. Of course Charlie turned up in the height of kitten season, so they couldn't take him right away.

We rented a trailer that is in the space next to ours. We brought Charlie there to foster.

The trailer is needed by its owners after the 4th of July weekend. We were starting to freak out - we've had him a month and not ONE call with interest in him. But our (now) friend Patty e-mailed last night, to say adoptions went well over the weekend, and she could take him.

At the time we initially took him to the vet to be neutered, we weren't sure if we were TNRing him and putting him back outside - so we didn't have him tested for FIV/FeLV and did have him ear-tipped. FeLV and FIV have never been an issue before, so we weren't concerned. We figure - we drop him at the vet, they test him, Patty comes to pick him up when she's picking up the feral that was being speutered today (they also oversee a TNR program).

Gary and I are in tears leaving Charlie behind - we suck at fostering. We are not cut from the correct emotional cloth. Gary has become very attached - this guy purrs up a storm for Gary, headbumps him like crazy, and lies on his lap. He's the same - but milder - for me. A real sweetie now. Still a bit skittish - but a love bug.

I call the vet to find out if Patty had been by to pick him up - and get floored by this news (didn't check VM - they did leave an extensive message). They close in half an hour - so we rush over there to get him.

He's back in the trailer.

But now we have hard choices. What do we do?

We have two weeks left. Then he either gets released back outside, brought over here, or murdered. The likelihood of our adopting him out in the next two weeks is about 0, so I don't count that as a real possibility.

FIV is not transmitted casually - it has to be saliva to blood. BUT....

1) Charlie is - or was - a stress biter. He would bite when he got overstimulated - never broke our skin - but we learned the signs, he learned "no," and now when he goes to bite - he licks instead. But that's people. He even does great at the vet, so go figure.

2) We know he got into a big scrap with the cat that is now being fostered by Patty, and the ferals stopped coming around to eat except when they were SURE he wasn't around. I'm pretty sure he was responsible for the bite wound that caused Fat Head's big foot abscess, though don't know for sure. Charlie was VERY food aggressive.
That said.... he's been neutered - a little over a month ago at this point. He knows he gets fed regularly - so we have no idea how he'd react to other cats re: food at this point, and without those hormones... we have no idea how he'd interact with other cats.

3) Our cats are doing OK - but definitely the edge of stressed with the 7 in this space. Lazlo was NOT happy about Billy.... I don't know if it's something about Bill or what (he's never had a problem with any other new intro).

4) Tuxedo never had a problem with Bill (or any other intro) - but he is doing GREAT healthwise - which means he is very.... spirited, let's say, and makes no small moves. He moves around at full-tilt - and while he doesn't actually fight with any of the gang, he does not hesitate to do things like - not let anyone on the bed if he's not in the mood. If someone wanted to challenge him on that - I could envision a big cat fight.

That wouldn't bother me too much - breaking up a cat fight every once in a while... but Tuxedo is already immunocompromised. He hasn't needed a depo shot for over a year - but if in the future he did need one, that would put him at additional risk for contraction of FIV if Charlie were in here.

So those are the issues with even considering bringing him inside with us.

As to putting him back outside.... building an enclosure is not an option. We do not own the property. I'm OK with the concept of having an outside kitty.... but is it irresponsible to put him back outside KNOWING he's FIV positive - and possibly aggressive? One vet is of the opinion that if the decision comes down to putting him back outside, the right thing to do is kill him. Tuxedo's vet, on the other hand, thinks cats should not be killed just because they're FIV positive. He has no problem with the concept of putting Charlie back outside. He says if he were in the situation - he'd probably try introducing him, but give it the "one shot" rule - and he goes outside after the first fight - and the only reason he's comfortable with that is that we're here most of the time - but he wants us to understand Tuxedo is at higher risk for contracting FIV more easily that our other cats.

So....

Do we try making slow-ish introductions over the next two weeks we still have the trailer - and if it's clear it's not going to work (whether this is a long term foster or an "adoption")... then what do we do? Kill him? Put him outside?

Gary is an emotional wreck, and he definitely wants to avoid the subject for at least tonight, if not the next couple of days. But I could really use some input here.

Eileen might be a good resource, she may know of rescues & resources for FIV+ cats.

All I can offer is a big hug at this point. Way beyond my realm of knowledge, but I can certainly understand your dilemma. I know you'll do your utmost for this sweet boy. (I get those bite-licks from Ferris regularly, and I treasure each one of them. )

Hang in there! And here are some for things to work out in Charlie's favor!

Awww hun all I can do is offer a hug and some vibes as well. What a tough situation. No matter what you decide, I know it will be what is best for Charlie.

Putting an FIV+ cat outside is pretty much a death sentence, in my opinion. He has no defenses. One injury, one virus caught from another cat...with no immune system to protect him...going to a final sleep in your arms would be preferable to a slow death alone under a bush somewhere. Not to mention the fact that he is likely to spread the disease to other strays or ferals, if he continues to fight.

I understand your attachment to him. Perhaps you can try an integration while you continue to look for an adopter or a rescue who can save him. There ARE rescues who specialize in FIV+ cats.

Charlie.

Laurie, I'll PM you the info I have regarding FIV+ groups, sanctuaries, etc...

With Danny, I was initially told by another rescue group (not the one I work with) that releasing FIV+ cats back into their colonies is standared TNR protocol, so long as the cat is closely monitored. I wasn't comfortable doing that with Danny since he wasn't faring well outside to begin with and with my colony being across town, I'm only able to check on things once a day.
Many folks I know who do TNR/rescue have put FIV+ cats back outside, but do watch them closely for any issues. They feel the chances of the cats spreading the disease are limited once their neutered because the incidents of fighting are reduced. Again, not something I'm entirely comfortable with.

More info on the way!

Do you know for certain that he has always been feral, or is there a chance that someone, at some point in his life, had him vaccinated for FIV? You do realize that they test positive for it from that point forward?



(this is why I will never vaccinate for FIV)

Originally Posted by Momofmany

Do you know for certain that he has always been feral, or is there a chance that someone, at some point in his life, had him vaccinated for FIV? You do realize that they test positive for it from that point forward?

(this is why I will never vaccinate for FIV)

Click to expand...

That's a good point. I think he wasn't neutered when found though?

I always will recommend against that FIV vaccine. It's useless anyway. My vet clinic doesn't even carry it at all.

Amy, it's a good point - one we all considered. But he's got lots of battle wounds, scars, ragged ears - and wasn't neutered. He was scared to heck of the vacuum cleaner - I know most cats are - but with 7 and lots of fosters, there's definitely a difference between that "fear of vaccum cleaners" - and that first encounter with one. We thought he adjusted to being inside so well that maybe he'd been owned before - but if that was the case, it wasn't for long.

Thank you for all the vibes though! We could use some more - believe it or not - there is a potential adopter! The bad news is she doesn't know he's FIV+ yet - the good news is he'd be an alone kitty, so it may not be an issue. Gary was at the Doc this morning, talking to the staff about Charlie - another patient overheard him, and said she's interested! Her kitty just passed at 18 years old. I know how difficult it is to adopt after you just lose a kitty, but we'll see.... Gary, of course, got called in right then - but he got that she lives near where we used to and uses that vet practice (where we still take our personal kitties, but it's a 45 min drive, so we don't take ferals there for TNR anymore). He gave her our name & phone number, and told her to call our vet for a reference on us and how we care for our cats and fosters, and that if she wanted to pursue it, we'd arrange to get Charlie up there for a visit with our vet - and she could come meet him.

We talked to our vet, he was happy to do it (obviously not to make any comments on the health of the kitty because he hasn't examined him, that was done at the local vet because we moved, but happy to chat about us). He JUST called to say she called him and he talked to her... so right now we're waiting to see if she'll call us....

It's a long shot - but that's better than no shot!

I'm sorry you're going through this, Laurie. I'm wishing you and Charlie lots of luck.

Good luck. My Callie is FIV+ and since we brought her in seems as healthy as my other 3. I understand your concern with a biter though. Maybe the adoption will work out. Vibes for you and Charlie.

most FIV tests done by vets also have a high false positive ratio. the western blot test is more accurate and more expensive but also not foolproof. it happenend to one of the strays i tried to bring home. he tested FIV+ and my husband said no. my neighbor took him, had him tested a few more times at the vet, all positive. and he fit the FIV+ 'profile'. then the 2 western blots she had done came back negative. but i learned quite a bit about the disease. the greater majority, once neutered, turn into big lovebugs.

Check your pm box Laurie

I hope things work out for you, Gary and Charlie.

Thank you everyone - and Eileen, and MA, I got the PMs.

Gary's gonna freak if we can't place him or can't make introductions here work for a longer term foster situation - but I've decided we cannot put him back outside. Nat - I know you have to make these hard decisions all the time, and I've always said, I don't know how you do it. I have no idea how we'd bring ourselves to murder a perfectly healthy, incredibly sweet and beautiful cat - and I'm pretty sure he's not a biter/fighter anymore. I think the poor guy was just starving, and now he knows he's got food. That said - I suspect that if challenged by a feral we haven't neutered yet, he seems like the kind of kitty that would try to meet that challenge. He's one cute sweetie with the biggest rumbliest purr - but he's also got lots of spunk and is not timid like Billy was. So putting him back outside really isn't an option.

I'll start the e-mail campaign today and get him listed on every FIV+ website there is LOL. I think we're going to try to work on slow intros over the next two weeks to see if we can't at least foster him here once we have to give the trailer back. He is just too sweet.

Unfortunately, the potential adopter felt she wasn't ready to adopt. I understand that - Gary and I are fortunate enough to have never had to lose a kitty yet (well - rescues have died on the way to the vet, but that's different than one of your own pets. ). Our oldest kitties turned 8 this year. But I watch people here struggle with it when a beloved kitty passes, so my heart goes out to her.

But it means we're gonna have a busy two weeks - hopefully work won't interfere too much.

Sorry, your post is so long, and I have so little time to read through it - so forgive me if I don't address the issues you've posted about, or, duplicated what others have said.

I just panicked when I read a line where there was some sort of consideration of putting him to sleep, and had to post something quick.

My stray had ONE test, and that test showed FIV - I could spend $$ and get a test that is more accurate - but don't have the $$ - I don't remember what the test is called, maybe someone here has already mentioned it (?).

Gray's been outside since he arrived about 2 years ago.
IF he even actually has FIV, then I don't know when he got it - or who he's shared it with- like his Queen and her two kittens. (?)

I am now just bringing him in at night so the likelyhood of him getting into a fight is lessened - he mostly lays around the house all day. He's basically healthy right now. The main problem is we have 3 inside cats, and I don't want to chance them also getting the FIV -- IF -- Gray does actually have it.

I guess I'm just stressing here the importance of really knowing he has the disease before it's even a consideration to end his life. For me, I couldn't really trust the snap test to make such a final decision to end his life.

FIV doesn't need to be a death sentence. My sister rescued a pregnant cat. The snap test showed FIV, the vet said that the kittens would be born with it. My sister did not abort the kittens, and all three of them lived to be close to 20 years old - and were not kept inside all of the time.

My Gray is also a cat that gives love nips, but he is also easily trainable and after about 4 times of stern "noes" he, too, now just licks me. After the licking session I do wash and disinfect the place on my skin where he has been kissing me just incase one of our other cats come in contact with the same place on my skin later.

My thoughts are that I wouldn't make a hasty decision based on one test, there is time - so, I'd take a step back, research, and, like you have been doing, look for other options.

I know in your last post that you are working through this - so just know, I deeply feel for what you guys are going though - blessings! Gloria

No hasty decisions are being made - that's why the long post, all of the issues being considered.

Yes, it is very expensive, but we're going to have the Western Blot test (IFA test) done to verify the FIV+ on the snap test. There are a lot of false positives. It is also recommended that even if the IFA test indicates a positive, it be done again in one month.

The problem is that we have an immuno-compromised cat living with us that is aggressive, and Charlie, while he may no longer be an aggressive kitty, he does not seem like the kind of cat that would back down if challenged, and we do not want to risk Tuxedo's health - we fought for three years to keep him alive. He's literally the $20,000 cat. (Thankfully we earned money back then ).

Charlie is being fostered in a trailer we rented, and that will no longer be available to us after the 4th of July weekend. The problem with putting him back outside is that we maintain a feral colony, and we are actively trapping cats - and there are unneutered cats that keep turning up. Again - if Charlie does not back down from a fight (which he did not do before being neutered), if we are not able to sterilize the cats before they mate, we are spreading and perpetuating the FIV problem (if Charlie is actually FIV positive).

The problem is that we live in an RV. There is nowhere to bring Charlie inside and keep him separated - day or night.

FIV+ cats can live inside quite normally with non-FIV+ cats that are healthy if they get along without terrible fighting. Scratching another cat won't transmit it - sharing food dishes won't transmit it - grooming each other won't transmit it. It takes a BAD bite to transmit the disease from one cat to another (they cannot transmit it to people or other animals). It cannot be transmitted casually.

If Tuxedo were not aggressive or immune compromised because of his autoimmune disease that is similar to feline hemolytic anemica, we would foster Charlie inside with us, full time inside, without a second thought about it. If we had a room where we could keep Charlie separate, we would foster him long term (in fact, we'd probably keep him!). But we don't.

Laurie
I just saw this thread now. What a heartbreaking dilemma. Charlie baby will make a wonderful single kitty, I know he would. I shared with Joe your situation and the first thing he mentioned was adoption not sending him to the bridge. I pray so hard that you can find a home for him! Charlie looks like a wise little old man...How is his diarrhea problem?

I also understand about Tuxie, I know that supressed immune systems are extremely vulnerable to anything and you can't take any chances...

Lots of love and prayers for the you and Gary and for your entire household!

Marina

Thanks. The problem is adopting him out before we have to give up the trailer rent (in about two weeks).

We have decided to try to introduce him to our gang so we can foster him longer term over here. Tuxie is doing well - which is good and bad. It means he doesn't need a depo shot, probably for a while - but it means he's aggressive, which is a problem.

But we'll see how it goes. Thankfully we work primarily from home, so we're usually here to make sure we can break up any cat fights.

If we can't make it work, we'll decide what to do then.

I started the scent swapping yesterday. Charlie was a little freaked by the smell of our cats on the blanket I brought over - understandable, because with FIV, obviously he's been in cat fights, so may not have had great experiences with other cats.

On his blanket I brought over here, I let each of our cats smell it individually. They each inspected it for a little while and looked at me like... "and?" I explained to all of them that there's a kitty that's going to be homeless in a couple of weeks, and they are going to have to share their space with him. I reminded them that they ALL used to be homeless, so they'd better be nice about it.

I can picture you sitting the babies down for the talk and they do understand us for sure. I hope that Charlie's aggression is only food related, and since he does not have to worry about food anymore, it's only a question of time to be OK with other kitties.

You mentioned you can not build a kitty enclosure because you rent the property. What about a kitty enclosure that is movable and removable and right next to your RV?

Miracles do happen and we will pray very hard for you!
Marina