Help! Charlie is FIV+

We've never had a cat test positive for FIV or FeLV, so this came as a total shock.

We've been feeding & trapping the ferals again (didn't for some time because of Gary's health and our finances. No health or funds to speuter, no food). Of course this time around - they're not all feral. Now that we are in the RV with 7 cats and cannot foster here.

We used to foster - but that was when it was just 3 or 4 cats in here. Then we moved into a house, we TNRd cats but didn't get involved in fostering because of Tuxedo....

....and now that we're TNRing again - and can't foster - it turns out we're turning up what feels like a lot of friendly cats (considering all the older ones we came across in the past were feral-feral, so we just fostered kittens). But this is #3 this year - and when we first were back in the RV Park, there were Billy and Bing.

So anyway, our vet introduced us to the a local foster/adoption network, and when they have space in their foster network, they've been taking our friendlies. They adopted out #1, and are still fostering #2. Of course Charlie turned up in the height of kitten season, so they couldn't take him right away.

We rented a trailer that is in the space next to ours. We brought Charlie there to foster.

The trailer is needed by its owners after the 4th of July weekend. We were starting to freak out - we've had him a month and not ONE call with interest in him. But our (now) friend Patty e-mailed last night, to say adoptions went well over the weekend, and she could take him.

At the time we initially took him to the vet to be neutered, we weren't sure if we were TNRing him and putting him back outside - so we didn't have him tested for FIV/FeLV and did have him ear-tipped. FeLV and FIV have never been an issue before, so we weren't concerned. We figure - we drop him at the vet, they test him, Patty comes to pick him up when she's picking up the feral that was being speutered today (they also oversee a TNR program).

Gary and I are in tears leaving Charlie behind - we suck at fostering. We are not cut from the correct emotional cloth. Gary has become very attached - this guy purrs up a storm for Gary, headbumps him like crazy, and lies on his lap. He's the same - but milder - for me. A real sweetie now. Still a bit skittish - but a love bug.

I call the vet to find out if Patty had been by to pick him up - and get floored by this news (didn't check VM - they did leave an extensive message). They close in half an hour - so we rush over there to get him.

He's back in the trailer.

But now we have hard choices. What do we do?

We have two weeks left. Then he either gets released back outside, brought over here, or murdered. The likelihood of our adopting him out in the next two weeks is about 0, so I don't count that as a real possibility.

FIV is not transmitted casually - it has to be saliva to blood. BUT....

1) Charlie is - or was - a stress biter. He would bite when he got overstimulated - never broke our skin - but we learned the signs, he learned "no," and now when he goes to bite - he licks instead. But that's people. He even does great at the vet, so go figure.

2) We know he got into a big scrap with the cat that is now being fostered by Patty, and the ferals stopped coming around to eat except when they were SURE he wasn't around. I'm pretty sure he was responsible for the bite wound that caused Fat Head's big foot abscess, though don't know for sure. Charlie was VERY food aggressive.
That said.... he's been neutered - a little over a month ago at this point. He knows he gets fed regularly - so we have no idea how he'd react to other cats re: food at this point, and without those hormones... we have no idea how he'd interact with other cats.

3) Our cats are doing OK - but definitely the edge of stressed with the 7 in this space. Lazlo was NOT happy about Billy.... I don't know if it's something about Bill or what (he's never had a problem with any other new intro).

4) Tuxedo never had a problem with Bill (or any other intro) - but he is doing GREAT healthwise - which means he is very.... spirited, let's say, and makes no small moves. He moves around at full-tilt - and while he doesn't actually fight with any of the gang, he does not hesitate to do things like - not let anyone on the bed if he's not in the mood. If someone wanted to challenge him on that - I could envision a big cat fight.

That wouldn't bother me too much - breaking up a cat fight every once in a while... but Tuxedo is already immunocompromised. He hasn't needed a depo shot for over a year - but if in the future he did need one, that would put him at additional risk for contraction of FIV if Charlie were in here.

So those are the issues with even considering bringing him inside with us.

As to putting him back outside.... building an enclosure is not an option. We do not own the property. I'm OK with the concept of having an outside kitty.... but is it irresponsible to put him back outside KNOWING he's FIV positive - and possibly aggressive? One vet is of the opinion that if the decision comes down to putting him back outside, the right thing to do is kill him. Tuxedo's vet, on the other hand, thinks cats should not be killed just because they're FIV positive. He has no problem with the concept of putting Charlie back outside. He says if he were in the situation - he'd probably try introducing him, but give it the "one shot" rule - and he goes outside after the first fight - and the only reason he's comfortable with that is that we're here most of the time - but he wants us to understand Tuxedo is at higher risk for contracting FIV more easily that our other cats.

So....

Do we try making slow-ish introductions over the next two weeks we still have the trailer - and if it's clear it's not going to work (whether this is a long term foster or an "adoption")... then what do we do? Kill him? Put him outside?

Gary is an emotional wreck, and he definitely wants to avoid the subject for at least tonight, if not the next couple of days. But I could really use some input here.

Amy, it's a good point - one we all considered. But he's got lots of battle wounds, scars, ragged ears - and wasn't neutered. He was scared to heck of the vacuum cleaner - I know most cats are - but with 7 and lots of fosters, there's definitely a difference between that "fear of vaccum cleaners" - and that first encounter with one. We thought he adjusted to being inside so well that maybe he'd been owned before - but if that was the case, it wasn't for long.

Thank you for all the vibes though! We could use some more - believe it or not - there is a potential adopter! The bad news is she doesn't know he's FIV+ yet - the good news is he'd be an alone kitty, so it may not be an issue. Gary was at the Doc this morning, talking to the staff about Charlie - another patient overheard him, and said she's interested! Her kitty just passed at 18 years old. I know how difficult it is to adopt after you just lose a kitty, but we'll see.... Gary, of course, got called in right then - but he got that she lives near where we used to and uses that vet practice (where we still take our personal kitties, but it's a 45 min drive, so we don't take ferals there for TNR anymore). He gave her our name & phone number, and told her to call our vet for a reference on us and how we care for our cats and fosters, and that if she wanted to pursue it, we'd arrange to get Charlie up there for a visit with our vet - and she could come meet him.

We talked to our vet, he was happy to do it (obviously not to make any comments on the health of the kitty because he hasn't examined him, that was done at the local vet because we moved, but happy to chat about us). He JUST called to say she called him and he talked to her... so right now we're waiting to see if she'll call us....

It's a long shot - but that's better than no shot!

Thank you everyone - and Eileen, and MA, I got the PMs.

Gary's gonna freak if we can't place him or can't make introductions here work for a longer term foster situation - but I've decided we cannot put him back outside. Nat - I know you have to make these hard decisions all the time, and I've always said, I don't know how you do it. I have no idea how we'd bring ourselves to murder a perfectly healthy, incredibly sweet and beautiful cat - and I'm pretty sure he's not a biter/fighter anymore. I think the poor guy was just starving, and now he knows he's got food. That said - I suspect that if challenged by a feral we haven't neutered yet, he seems like the kind of kitty that would try to meet that challenge. He's one cute sweetie with the biggest rumbliest purr - but he's also got lots of spunk and is not timid like Billy was. So putting him back outside really isn't an option.

I'll start the e-mail campaign today and get him listed on every FIV+ website there is LOL. I think we're going to try to work on slow intros over the next two weeks to see if we can't at least foster him here once we have to give the trailer back. He is just too sweet.

Unfortunately, the potential adopter felt she wasn't ready to adopt. I understand that - Gary and I are fortunate enough to have never had to lose a kitty yet (well - rescues have died on the way to the vet, but that's different than one of your own pets. ). Our oldest kitties turned 8 this year. But I watch people here struggle with it when a beloved kitty passes, so my heart goes out to her.

But it means we're gonna have a busy two weeks - hopefully work won't interfere too much.

No hasty decisions are being made - that's why the long post, all of the issues being considered.

Yes, it is very expensive, but we're going to have the Western Blot test (IFA test) done to verify the FIV+ on the snap test. There are a lot of false positives. It is also recommended that even if the IFA test indicates a positive, it be done again in one month.

The problem is that we have an immuno-compromised cat living with us that is aggressive, and Charlie, while he may no longer be an aggressive kitty, he does not seem like the kind of cat that would back down if challenged, and we do not want to risk Tuxedo's health - we fought for three years to keep him alive. He's literally the $20,000 cat. (Thankfully we earned money back then ).

Charlie is being fostered in a trailer we rented, and that will no longer be available to us after the 4th of July weekend. The problem with putting him back outside is that we maintain a feral colony, and we are actively trapping cats - and there are unneutered cats that keep turning up. Again - if Charlie does not back down from a fight (which he did not do before being neutered), if we are not able to sterilize the cats before they mate, we are spreading and perpetuating the FIV problem (if Charlie is actually FIV positive).

The problem is that we live in an RV. There is nowhere to bring Charlie inside and keep him separated - day or night.

FIV+ cats can live inside quite normally with non-FIV+ cats that are healthy if they get along without terrible fighting. Scratching another cat won't transmit it - sharing food dishes won't transmit it - grooming each other won't transmit it. It takes a BAD bite to transmit the disease from one cat to another (they cannot transmit it to people or other animals). It cannot be transmitted casually.

If Tuxedo were not aggressive or immune compromised because of his autoimmune disease that is similar to feline hemolytic anemica, we would foster Charlie inside with us, full time inside, without a second thought about it. If we had a room where we could keep Charlie separate, we would foster him long term (in fact, we'd probably keep him!). But we don't.

Thanks. The problem is adopting him out before we have to give up the trailer rent (in about two weeks).

We have decided to try to introduce him to our gang so we can foster him longer term over here. Tuxie is doing well - which is good and bad. It means he doesn't need a depo shot, probably for a while - but it means he's aggressive, which is a problem.

But we'll see how it goes. Thankfully we work primarily from home, so we're usually here to make sure we can break up any cat fights.

If we can't make it work, we'll decide what to do then.

I started the scent swapping yesterday. Charlie was a little freaked by the smell of our cats on the blanket I brought over - understandable, because with FIV, obviously he's been in cat fights, so may not have had great experiences with other cats.

On his blanket I brought over here, I let each of our cats smell it individually. They each inspected it for a little while and looked at me like... "and?" I explained to all of them that there's a kitty that's going to be homeless in a couple of weeks, and they are going to have to share their space with him. I reminded them that they ALL used to be homeless, so they'd better be nice about it.

The movable/removable enclosure is a good idea... but a longer term project as Gary is pretty limited in his capacity to help. I'm sure there are ways we can do it rather inexpensively, but I'd rather focus the time we have on making it work inside if we can since I've got to prioritize both time and money. The IFA Test is going to cost $150, and we do need to get a full blood panel done on the boy - that's about the same.

...and unfortunately Gary's having problems with his teeth right now, and that - I don't even want to think about what that's going to cost. We're going to have to use care credit to get that work done. I'm just very thankful the vet will let us make payments over time when necessary, because we're going to use up the credit we (try) to keep at the vet in very short order.

Scent swapping 2.

Took a mat I'd forgotten about that had all the kitties sleeping on it up in a cabinet for months without being washed ( ) and took it over to Charlie's - set it next to where I usually sit on the couch, so it was where he usually sits on the couch. He jumped up, trotted over - and began intensely sniffing. He looked up at me - I offered him his brush - and he plopped down on the mat and I started brushing him, and he purred up a storm.

I also went armed with two wash clothes - one that I'd rubbed all over Billy and one I'd rubbed all over Shelly. I held one out to him - he sniffed it for a while but didn't react. I set it in the place I feed him his wet food.

We played - I put the "Billy towel" down and set treats down on it. He sniffed for a quick few seconds, gobbled up the treats, and sniffed another few seconds - then wanted to play some more. I left that towel down under his dry food dish.

After play and food, he did the legs on my lap for brushies - and I held out the brush I'd brushed Spooky with and she drooled all over (he's half on my lap and half lying on the "all cat" scented mat). I held it out for him to sniff - he nuzzled his nose in there for a little while - looked up at me - and I blinked at him. He blinked back and held his cheek out - so I started brushing him.

Each time I let him sniff something that smelled like just one cat, I told him all about the kitty, using the cat's name a lot "Shellly this and Shelly that..." &etc.

Tomorrow we're going to focus on Lazlo and Tuxedo - the potential problem kitties.

I left a clean mat over there on Charlie's back-of-the-couch blanket perch to nap and watch out the window. He's been using it all afternoon. I'll leave it unti tomorrow - and then I'm going to focus on getting Laz to associate Charlie's scent with "good" things. Playing, treats, his wet meals. I'm going to also bring Charlie's brush over here and have it available to use for Lazlo (who is INSANE about being brushed as frequently as possible).

Do the same for Tuxie. I also think Ming Loy will need some "good things" association with Charlie - she can get really pissy.

Flowerbelle I'm not worried about - all the kitties totally tolerate her, and she's never had an issue with any other cat. If they're into playing with her, she's into it, but never pesters anyone to engage with her either. She's just - always like a little kitten but doesn't bother anyone because she doesn't direct her energy at them. When I let her sniff the Charlie blanket, she took a few seconds and was like "oh, another cat. Whatever."

I'm beginning to think the biggest problem we're going to have is that he LOVES the counter and hanging out in the sink - and we don't allow the kitties here on the counter.

...and I finally got a "natural light" picture of his eyes. In photos, his eyes always look yellow - but in real life, there is a circle of green then a circle of yellow outside of that, and they almost always look this beautiful light green....

He seems scared of very little, actually (except the vacuum cleaner, as per usual LOL) - I think it was the noise I was making to get him to look my direction - and I'd been flashing the camera quite a bit at him - I think he was getting annoyed.

Here are a few more pictures:





I swear - of his 10 pounds, at least 3 or 4 of it is his head!

He does have the cutest paws - broad shoulders, too - and I love his stubbly little legs! I've posted this elsewhere, but this picture (on a tilt - it's him standing up peeking over the back of the couch) really shows off his markings. We must have a couple of really monster cats, because Lazlo and Shelly, when they stand on their back legs, can reach to the top (easily) of the kitchen counter. Charlie barely makes the back of the couch!



I got my two "Charlie" rags and brought them over here - also cleaned the brush I used on Spooky for Charlie, and got it full of Charlie hair and smell.

Worked with Lazlo first (also a very food motivated kitty LOL). He sniffed it for all of five seconds - obviously recognized the smell - and I put treats down on it for him.

Did the same with Tuxedo - got the same reaction.

It's been 1 1/2 years (?) since we brought Billy inside - and before that, it was 3 or 4 years before we brought Ming Loy inside. BUT... before that, we had a lot of fosters coming and going. So they may be out of the swing of the foster thing, but seeing cats out the window (which they do all the time because we feed the ferals right outside so we can keep an eye on them) doesn't make anyone get upset or aggressive - and they've obviously been smelling Charlie on us for over a month now.

I still like doing the individual intros with explanations. I reminded Lazlo and Tuxie about Charlie, who he is and what he needs....

We'll see.

I think my next step is going to be taking some pee and poop out of the litter boxes here and bringing it over to Charlie's. He hasn't been getting worked up at all about any of the new kitty scents - and I think we'd better just go ahead and find out how he's going to react to sharing a litter box.

We have seven cats using three. It'll be 8 using three. We can temporarily add a 4th, but the only place it fits is the shower, which is a real PIA - it is also easily blocked by anybody stalking the bathroom... and Lazlo's favorite place to be brushed is the bathroom - and if we can avoid upsetting that applecart, I'd rather not. I have a feeling it's one of the problems with had with Bill's introduction, actually.

Well, he didn't (seem) to mind having other kitties' pee and poop in his litterbox. I brought over one of each (don't know whose) and lightly covered it in one of his litterboxes. He watched me put it in there and sniffed for just a few seconds, then trotted away to pounce on a rattly mousie.

Later in the day he'd used that box, not the other one - and he didn't try to cover either one up with his scent, as he went in the opposite corner of the box. And outside, I definitely watched him pee (spray) right where one of the ferals had just peed, so.... I'm taking this as a really positive sign.