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Worldwide condemnation of Israel - Hurray for Canada

post #1 of 27
6/1/10 at 9:31am
Thread Starter 
Well, I guess some things never change and rampant Anti-Semitism is one of them. Pathetic how the leaders of countries, worldwide, are condemning Israel for boarding that ship. Playing right into the bad guy's hands. Sadly even our own President. Which is no surprise as most of us knew Barack is no friend of Israel.

But hurray for Stephen Harper for standing up for Israel. He has my utmost respect.
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post #2 of 27
6/1/10 at 9:36am
I actually have to say that I buy Israel's accounting of the events in this case, for a couple of reasons. One, they have a long established history of non-violent interception of such "convoys", and I really don't see them changing tactics unless the situation changes it for them. Two, they obviously weren't properly armed or equipped to conduct a "massacre" when they boarded the ships.

But, conducting their operation in International waters without the knowledge of the embassy of the vessel's flag was, to say the least, pretty stupid, and may have severely bent some laws. After all, Israel and Turkey are not at war, and the vessels were documented in Turkey.
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post #3 of 27
6/1/10 at 11:44am
So, if someone commits a murder and that someone is Jewish, anyone who condemns that murder is an anti-Semite? Not in Realityville where I reside.
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post #4 of 27
6/1/10 at 1:47pm
The only thing I don't agree with is intercepting the ship in international waters. That being said Israel repeatedly warned the ships they wouldn't be allowed in. I don't fault the Israelis in the slightest for using force to defend themselves if they were attacked first.
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post #5 of 27
6/1/10 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenwales View Post
So, if someone commits a murder and that someone is Jewish, anyone who condemns that murder is an anti-Semite? Not in Realityville where I reside.
Actually, when talking about the real Israel, we're talking about a nation of Jews, Muslims, Christians and Druz, mainly, with little smatterings of this, that and the other, such as Buddhists, etc. with some of most actually serving in the government. And, of those that are Jewish, there's numerous sub-groups ranging from Orthodox to Secular, with Secular accounting for over 40%. So, "anti-Semitism" in this instance would be nothing more than a political buzzword.
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post #6 of 27
6/1/10 at 2:09pm
In some people's eyes, Israel can do no wrong. That of course is a crock. They're human beings like the rest of us, and pobody's nerfect! I haven't decided how I feel about this particular event, because I haven't been absorbing much news the last little while, so I'm not equipped to have an opinion.

One thing I do know is that Stephen Harper's endorsement or condemnation of ANYTHING is for me grounds to look more favourably at the other side -- not grounds to take the other side necessarily, since he's been known occasionally to get it right -- credit where credit is due. And he does not have a majority government, so you cannot say that he has a mandate to speak for Canadians -- he seldom speaks for me or most of the people I know. The difficulty is that there isn't a single strong alternative for us to vote for just now, so the vote gets split and we get Good Ol' Steve back, because he's really the only game in town for conservatives, thus consolidating their vote.

So I'll take any enthusiasm people have for Canada, based on his proclamations, with a grain of salt, until I have reason to make an informed decision for myself.

And just for clarity, this is not an invitation to lob assorted links of varying credibility at each other. All I came here to do is comment on the apparent infallibility of Israel and the implication that because my Prime Minister says something, all of Canada agrees.
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post #7 of 27
6/1/10 at 2:36pm
The commando's actions would be completely justified in territorial waters. In fact, I think they were quite successfully baited into a confrontation for purely political purposes. However, their initiating the raid in International Waters puts that justification in question. And, influential people high in Israel's government, and many Israeli citizens as well, are realizing that, and are now realizing the effect it could have.

Israel Worries Over Consequences of Flotilla Clash

Quote:
"Israel is gradually turning from an asset to the United States to a burden," Meir Dagan, Israel's intelligence chief, said today before the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.

That statement from such a respected official unsettled not only politicians but also many Israelis aware of their country's enormous dependence on Washington's diplomatic goodwill.
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post #8 of 27
6/1/10 at 5:41pm
I have to strongly disagree with the OP's statement. Just because the world condemsn the act of boarding the ship which was carrying humanitarian supplies in international waters does not mean the condemers are 'anti-semites'.

I'm not anti-Jewish, but I have to say I disapprove of some of the tactics the Israeli government has taken to suppress a population of people living within its borders (in territory that has been seized and controled under questionable legal authority for 40 years are highly questionable.

A 4000 year old lease given by God does not give a modern government the right to deny the reality that there were other people living there before they tried to reclaim the lease. We can't undo the fact that the nation of Isreal exist but they have a responsibility to treat the Palestinians humanely and fairly, not doing so only increases the number of radicals who, feeling that they have no legal recourse, resort to killing civilians onboth sides to maek their point.

Gaza and everybody living there has essentially been under siege, or house arrest for 3 years now. Basic supplies needed for living or even the ability to have a self-supporting means of employment have been severly curtailed.
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post #9 of 27
6/1/10 at 8:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenwales View Post
So, if someone commits a murder and that someone is Jewish, anyone who condemns that murder is an anti-Semite? Not in Realityville where I reside.
Except, that in this case it wasn't "murder" it was self defense. The Israeli's boarded this ship one by one from a helicopter, armed with paint ball guns for goodness sakes. The only real weapons they had were small sidearms. Here is a video of how they were attacked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B8_2...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2duP...layer_embedded
Here we have one of the "peace activists" stabbing an IDF soldier, see link below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOW...layer_embedded

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyrajean View Post
I have to strongly disagree with the OP's statement. Just because the world condemsn the act of boarding the ship which was carrying humanitarian supplies in international waters does not mean the condemers are 'anti-semites'.
Humanitarian supplies"? Here are some recent "humanitarian supplies" found last fall on a ship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puK9v...layer_embedded
And here are the weapons that were seized.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQtzS...layer_embedded


I'm not anti-Jewish, but I have to say I disapprove of some of the tactics the Israeli government has taken to suppress a population of people living within its borders (in territory that has been seized and controled under questionable legal authority for 40 years are highly questionable.

A 4000 year old lease given by God does not give a modern government the right to deny the reality that there were other people living there before they tried to reclaim the lease. We can't undo the fact that the nation of Isreal exist but they have a responsibility to treat the Palestinians humanely and fairly, not doing so only increases the number of radicals who, feeling that they have no legal recourse, resort to killing civilians onboth sides to maek their point.

Gaza and everybody living there has essentially been under siege, or house arrest for 3 years now. Basic supplies needed for living or even the ability to have a self-supporting means of employment have been severly curtailed.
You do realize there are many, many Palestinian's living in peace in Jerusalem with no problem. Also, it is the terrorists groups that ruin it for the Palestinan people no Israel.

Also I think people need to be reminded that this blockcade is a JOINT effort of Israel and Egypt to keep Hamas from getting weapons.

Humanitarian supplies, medical supplies, food, etc, are let through, no problem.

Israel should be able to defend itself from the rockets being lobbed from Gaza and suicide bombers. If it weren't for the terrorist groups peace could be made.

And this "peace flotilla" ship that was sent was organized by:
Quote:
A group called Free Gaza, an umbrella organisation of activist groups from numerous countries, and a Turkish group called the IHH (Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief). The Israeli government says the IHH is closely linked to Hamas, and is a member of another organisation, the Union of the Good, which supports suicide bombings. However, the Turkish government regards the IHH as a legitimate charity, and urged Israel to let the flotilla through.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mid...t/10203726.stm
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post #10 of 27
6/1/10 at 10:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Except, that in this case it wasn't "murder" it was self defense. The Israeli's boarded this ship one by one from a helicopter, armed with paint ball guns for goodness sakes. The only real weapons they had were small sidearms. Here is a video of how they were attacked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B8_2...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2duP...layer_embedded
Here we have one of the "peace activists" stabbing an IDF soldier, see link below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOW...layer_embedded



You do realize there are many, many Palestinian's living in peace in Jerusalem with no problem. Also, it is the terrorists groups that ruin it for the Palestinan people no Israel.

Also I think people need to be reminded that this blockcade is a JOINT effort of Israel and Egypt to keep Hamas from getting weapons.

Humanitarian supplies, medical supplies, food, etc, are let through, no problem.

Israel should be able to defend itself from the rockets being lobbed from Gaza and suicide bombers. If it weren't for the terrorist groups peace could be made.

And this "peace flotilla" ship that was sent was organized by:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mid...t/10203726.stm
Well, that's where it gets a tad sticky. The ships were in International Waters, an area where Israel had no jurisdiction. IF they were at war with Turkey, then they could stop and board Turkish ships on the high seas and inspect them for war materials and contraband. But, as they are not at war, Israel can't legally interfere with Turkish flagged shipping outside of territorial waters without the consent of their embassy. If they had given them about 10 more miles of headway, everything would be peachy.

So, claiming self defense in this instance is a bit like saying a cop searching a house without a search warrant and killing the homeowner than confronts him is acting in self defense. The cop may have been defending himself, but it's not a workable legal defense because of the circumstances.

The commandos let themselves get baited in, and now they're sinking in circumstances.
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post #11 of 27
6/2/10 at 5:11am
Those of us who know the Bible, know there will never be peace - at least not yet. Its already predicted that the nations around Isreal will attack her from all directions - but in the end she will stand.

In the meantime, Isreal has every right to defend herself against those that have stated time and again their goal is to destroy Isreal and wipe them off the earth.

This was a baited situation - the ship was told to not try and break the barrier - they did it to start more trouble and for political reasons. We will see the beginning of the end very soon now.
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post #12 of 27
6/2/10 at 5:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
You do realize there are many, many Palestinian's living in peace in Jerusalem with no problem. Also, it is the terrorists groups that ruin it for the Palestinan people no Israel...etc...
Cindy, as much as I despise most everything you write, I found that to be an excellent post.

And as much as I'd like to go on a rant about this issue and write a slew of things that would likely get me banned, this link thankfully exposes the realities regarding the situation and does my dirty work for me.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/...nse-for-Israel
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post #13 of 27
6/2/10 at 11:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keycube View Post
Cindy, as much as I despise most everything you write, I found that to be an excellent post.

And as much as I'd like to go on a rant about this issue and write a slew of things that would likely get me banned, this link thankfully exposes the realities regarding the situation and does my dirty work for me.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/...nse-for-Israel
Bless your heart, Keycube, for this post. You could have knocked me over with a feather.

And that link, that article is AWESOME. I am keeping that baby in a folder for posting in several different places.

Thank you SO much for both.
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post #14 of 27
6/2/10 at 11:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Well, that's where it gets a tad sticky. The ships were in International Waters, an area where Israel had no jurisdiction. IF they were at war with Turkey, then they could stop and board Turkish ships on the high seas and inspect them for war materials and contraband. But, as they are not at war, Israel can't legally interfere with Turkish flagged shipping outside of territorial waters without the consent of their embassy. If they had given them about 10 more miles of headway, everything would be peachy.

So, claiming self defense in this instance is a bit like saying a cop searching a house without a search warrant and killing the homeowner than confronts him is acting in self defense. The cop may have been defending himself, but it's not a workable legal defense because of the circumstances.

The commandos let themselves get baited in, and now they're sinking in circumstances.
I have seen differing opinion on that with different people quoting, copying and pasting, supposedly, articles of international maritime law but I don't even pretend to be smart enough to know what is accurate but I have to find what someone else told me and copy it here.

But, be that as it may, IMO, legality is second to what is morally right.

The fact that many people are calling this "murder" by the Israeli commando's is false. Self defense isn't murder.
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post #15 of 27
6/2/10 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I have seen differing opinion on that with different people quoting, copying and pasting, supposedly, articles of international maritime law but I don't even pretend to be smart enough to know what is accurate but I have to find what someone else told me and copy it here.

But, be that as it may, IMO, legality is second to what is morally right.

The fact that many people are calling this "murder" by the Israeli commando's is false. Self defense isn't murder.
Hey, we agree too...cool.

A retired "Coasty" gave me the clearest explanation of Maritime Law I've seen yet. He says that in International Waters, a ship flying another nation's flag can be looked at exactly the same way as a border town on the other side of the border.

IMO, the ONLY thing the commandos did wrong was to launch their operations too soon. The ships would have been inside territorial waters and their blockade zone soon enough. IMO again, murder, I don't think so...wrongful death, maybe. Like you, I'm not a deep study of international law, and that's going to be up to a lot of people more learned that moi'.
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post #16 of 27
6/2/10 at 9:04pm
Thread Starter 
Netanyahu's first public statement

http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=177286

Quote:
‘We face international hypocrisy’
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/02/2010 20:20

PM: "This was not a 'Love Boat', it was a hate boat."

Speaking live to the nation, Netanyahu said, "The State of Israel faces an attack of international hypocrisy. This is not the first time we have faced this, two years ago we faced a massive attack of missiles fired by Hamas who hid behind civilians. Israel went to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties but who did the UN condemn? It condemned Israel."

"Hamas continues to arm. Iran continues to send weapons to Gaza. Iran's rockets are intended to hit Israeli communities, not just in the vicinity of Gaza, but in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem."

"It is our right according to International law to prevent arms smuggling to Gaza and that is why the naval blockade was put in place. The flotilla intended to break the blockade, not to bring in emergency supplies which we allow to reach Gaza"

"If the blockade had been broken, hundreds of ships would have followed, with a scale of smuggling far greater than that possible in the tunnels. Two ships stopped in the last years -Francop and Karine-A - had hundreds of tons of weapons."

"It is our duty to examine any ship going to Gaza - If we don't do this, the result would be an Iranian port in Gaza, only a few dozen kilometers from Tel Aviv, which would also threaten other countries in the region. We offered to take the cargo to Ashdod and examine it, an offer which Egypt seconded. The flotilla leaders rejected this."
Much more at link.
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post #17 of 27
6/4/10 at 6:40am
I think we all suspected this would get worse before it got better, but it has that look of getting REALLY bad:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100604/..._turkey_israel

I must say, I've been waiting for an Israeli PM to finally take a firm stand on security issues and not buckle under international pressure. I've loved Natanyahu since he was the "Voice of Israel" during the Gulf War, and he always struck me as someone that would always put Israel first; which can't be said about many prior Israeli PM's.
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post #18 of 27
6/4/10 at 7:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keycube View Post
I think we all suspected this would get worse before it got better, but it has that look of getting REALLY bad:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100604/..._turkey_israel

I must say, I've been waiting for an Israeli PM to finally take a firm stand on security issues and not buckle under international pressure. I've loved Natanyahu since he was the "Voice of Israel" during the Gulf War, and he always struck me as someone that would always put Israel first; which can't be said about many prior Israeli PM's.
I've been trying to find an update on this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_600351.html
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post #19 of 27
6/6/10 at 5:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keycube View Post
I think we all suspected this would get worse before it got better, but it has that look of getting REALLY bad:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100604/..._turkey_israel

I must say, I've been waiting for an Israeli PM to finally take a firm stand on security issues and not buckle under international pressure. I've loved Natanyahu since he was the "Voice of Israel" during the Gulf War, and he always struck me as someone that would always put Israel first; which can't be said about many prior Israeli PM's.
Well thankfully the Irish Ship was not confrontational.

Now,
Quote:
Iran offers escort to next aid convoy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ran-aid-convoy
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post #20 of 27
6/7/10 at 7:58am
Egypt calls "fail"...Quitting the ballgame, going home, and taking their ball with them.

Egypt: Gaza blockade a failure, border stays open
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post #21 of 27
6/7/10 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Well thankfully the Irish Ship was not confrontational.

Now,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ran-aid-convoy
Oh, so Iran is willing to send a destroyer or two, maybe even a cruiser, into another nations waters, uninvited, for humanitarian reasons? Aren't they just swell guys!
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post #22 of 27
6/7/10 at 8:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Oh, so Iran is willing to send a destroyer or two, maybe even a cruiser, into another nations waters, uninvited, for humanitarian reasons? Aren't they just swell guys!


Aren't they though.

I wonder how many of Nobel Laureate's will have the cajones to be about THAT aid () ship with Iran escorting it? Not many I'm betting.
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post #23 of 27
6/7/10 at 9:49am
Oops, my bad. I just did some research. Iran's last 3 destroyers are almost 50 years old now, and aren't even considered operational. They have a handful of frigates, a few submarines, and a gaggle of light patrol boats. Basically, a heavy harbor patrol.
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post #24 of 27
6/7/10 at 10:56am
Thread Starter 
Really? Now that is funny.
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post #25 of 27
6/8/10 at 7:41am
Speaking of ships...is she not bad to the bone, or what?

USS Independence: Leaving the nest and going to work
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post #26 of 27
6/8/10 at 10:26am
Here is a graphic illustration of why Israel is suspicious of these ships:

Unloading the MV Francop

That is not one of the current ships in question, but rather the MV Francop, which they seized back in November of last year.

MV Francop
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post #27 of 27
6/8/10 at 12:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Speaking of ships...is she not bad to the bone, or what?

USS Independence: Leaving the nest and going to work
She sure is!
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