France planning to ban face veils

yeah i agree with France! I know im in England but I agree they should be banned not because I am a racist, or dont believe in religion for me its purely because of identification you cant tell one woman from another, I know in England in some companies you cant wear a crucifix necklace because its religious and its forcing it upon other cultures, im all for diversity in a country, I just dont think its right that if we went to there country we would have to follow their rules and laws but they claim racism here

France has had a long record of being vigorously secular. This was a "kick-back" from their long history of being violently religious, involved in such things as the Saint Bartholemew's Day Massacre (the reason my ancestors, and most intellectuals, left France) and the Crusades. Their reaction on this is exactly like some Americans (do I have to name names?) toward anything religious in public. They are not against religion, but rather against anyone else being forced to be exposed to it or having to make any accommodations to it.

Also, France's involvement in the Algerian War (their Viet Nam, after they abandoned Viet Nam) has left them with very mixed feelings toward Muslims in general.

Belgium, too: Belgium Moves Closer to Europe's First Burqa Ban

IMO, it's one thing to prohibit public employees like teachers, judges, etc., who are rightly expected to be objective, from wearing any kind of religious symbols, be they crucifixes, Stars of David or naqibs at work, and quite another to completely ban some of them for everybody in public, no matter what the argumentation, e.g., a symbol of women's oppression or security threat in the age of terrorism.

Every article I've read has pointed out that the Belgian ban would affect a few hundred women, and a French one <2,000, so what is really the point of passing such laws?

A case here in the US a few years ago.


http://www.kxnet.com/getForumPost.as...06869&Start=30

yeah same here, for all we know it could be one person taking the test all the time, very narrow minded of me i know

I agree people should be made to show their true identity, yes it is classed as racist over here nut a motorcyclist cannot walk into a shop with a crash helmet on though! We are too esy over here incase of being classed as racist. I am not racist but yes people should have to show their true identities. I agree with people also having their right to their own beliefs and religions but safety comes first. x

I agree with you. Don't much care what laws they pass in their country. But here driving is a privilege not a right, so we can and should require anyone applying for a driver's license to have her picture taken with her face uncovered. Period.

Well, that's just pragmatic; it is reasonable and practical for an identification document to require the person to be identifiable. If religion-based privacy concerns for females are cited, they can curtain off a photo booth and have a female employee operate the camera.

I do think that private citizens should be able to dress as they please except when necessary to deal with specific security concerns (such as how convenience stores ban masks even on Halloween). People are going to tend toward the mainstream over the course of a few generations, if they're comfortable where they are, and if wearing a little thing over their faces while they're out grocery shopping or whatever lets them be comfortable, maybe there needs to be some space for that.

Yup, and that's a lot easier solution than an Amish driver having to get a picture ID.

For the most part I agree with the law. They can wear a headscarf, but a face veil makes it impossible to identify them, and to me it IS a symbol of oppression of women and on not far from say, a swastika. I absolutely despise the countries where women have no rights and I don't think france or any other democratic country should allow this trend to carry over.
IMO just because some women who wear face veils voluntarily and like wearing them, are simply choosing the easier option rather than fighting for their rights they choose to be content and have an easier life and submit to their husbands...I say it's BS when they say they like to keep their faces hidden from the world.

Whoa wait what? I didn't think Amish people were supposed to operate that kind of modern stuff. Unless there's a buggy driver license I'm not aware of?

I agree with you! WOW!

But, as is so often the case in these matters, the women themselves say they see it, and all the way on up to the burqa, as giving them more freedom, rather than less.

I will readily accept the security and ID issues. Arguing about the actual religion is as useless as...well, as arguing politics.

I just read my previous post over and noticed I said I "despise the countries where women have no rights", I didn't mean that, I meant to say I hate the fact that they don't have rights, not the country I don't know what I was doing and not paying attention to what I'm writing when I wrote that, but I had to correct it, because it came off wrong and I definitely don't hate any country. Okay sorry for the pointless post I just really, really wanted to clarify that for my own conscience.

But, I don't see it as really arguing over religion- it's arguing about whether or not they have the right to practice their religion in a different country.
This reminds me of the movie, The Devil's Advocate, where a guy was abusing animals and was being tried for it, and the main character, I forget the name, the one Keanu Reeves' played, who played his lawyer, made the argument that it's religious sacrifice, and the guy was found not guilty in the end. It's just a movie though, I don't think the argument would really hold up in real life.

Just like, if there is a religion out there that requires human sacrifice, and someone in the US tried to practice that, they would still go to jail for murder, because to US society, regardless of religion, the killing of another person is a crime. Even though in that case it's a religious practice, and even though our constitution guarantees the freedom to practice any religion, it's still a crime. So, if to the French, the face veil symbolizes oppression of women, and they find it offensive enough to make it a crime, then it doesn't matter that it's a religious practice, in France it is going to be a crime and not protected under the freedom of religion law that they have, just like we do. So not exactly an argument over whether a religion is right or wrong, it's more about whether it's offensive enough for French society to consider it a crime.
Or, maybe not a "crime", but against the law, I'm pretty sure there's a difference.

Let me put a different perspective on this. My niece lived in Paris for a few years and actually met and married a Muslim man from Algeria who was going to school there. I learned a little bit about the racism against Muslims in that country. The animosity against anyone Muslim was very similar to the racial animosity that you saw (and still see to some extent) in the U.S. against Negros. It is not so much a religious difference as it is people invading their country that are not of European descent. That is the part I have issue with and my guess is that the law is to limit the races, not the religion.

Of all the family members that I met at their wedding, none wore even a head scarf. It could be because they are from a country where the burka is not as prevalent, but it is in part because many of them live in France and want to fit in. My nephew-in-law has asked my niece to never wear a head scarf out of principle (even when scarves were trendy).

I witnessed the animosity directly. After the wedding, we stood in front of the town hall waiting for the bride and groom to come out after their pictures. It is custom for Algerians to make a loud call (I can't begin to describe it) in celebration. There were people driving past that rolled down their windows and yelled obscenities at them. It was then that I was told that Algerians are not welcome in France.

Technically Amish-Mennonites, but still...

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=11824

It is difficult for most European countries to accept immigrants, especially if they are Arabs. In US our experience is very very unique, because we have such a mixture of races and nationalities. And I've experienced this too, I am not of arab descent, but I've seen the discrimination, and it's not even something people hide- at least in the US south, if there are racist people against African Americans, they hide it and only talk about it privately, but in most of Europe it's the norm to overhear conversations along the lines of "I can't believe these arabs, before we know it they will take over our country" in front of everyone...It really sucks that it has to be this way, but I don't think this law is discriminatory in that sense.
Is it really doing something to drive Arabs off away from France??? I really don't see how...
And, in your example the people in your family wouldn't even be affected by the law since they don't wear face veils or headscarves. And I agree, it's so sad that they still are not accepted and integrated into society easily.