unChristian

It sounds like an interesting book. I can see where people get that impression, because so many people who call themselves Christian really aren't.

So...will they be doing a follow up, "UnMuslim?"

It looks like an interesting book. I hadn't heard of it before, but will add it to my summer reading list.

Does that mean you think criticism of some Christians' practices should only be allowed if it's offset by criticism of other religions?

Christians don't stop being sinners because they are Christians, never forget that.

Only if the authors want any credibility.

But, like so many people today, they probably aren't brave (or stupid) enough to write such a book.

Looks like a good read, the problem I find is that christians move with the times, it says in the Bible that man should not lie with man, yet we have gay vicars?? I myself have no problem with gay/lesbians, infact have friends who are but this is a thing that baffles me. x

They're saying that they expect better behavior of people based on their own stated beliefs...sure, you could probably say this about people of pretty much all religions, and it would be interesting to do so for comparison's sake, but...I just don't see the problem...? I mean, if it's wrong to expect people's actions to at least somewhat match their stated beliefs, then I don't want to be right.

It would be interesting to read a book about being "unMuslim", but the Muslim culture is so harsh on those who act unMuslim it probably isn't as common.
I always found the expression "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" very irritating. IMO, that ranks up there with "I had to take my cat to the pound cuz my new boyfriend is allergic" I personally have found that attitude downright harmful - I credit it with the fact, yes, cold hard fact, that I get more "Christ-like" compassion, shown financially, timewise and emotionally, by non-believers. For me, the most common denominator at getting assistance for needy humans or pets, has been that those willing to help are cat lovers

I think you may be taking it the wrong way. What bothers you about it? Also I don't understand what the two quotes have in common.
How do you determine one's faith? Do you ask them up front? For instance, if someone in the grocery store with a full cart lets you get in front because you have only one item, do you ask if he is a Christian or not? I'm not saying Christians are perfect (oops, back to that). Please remember that even Christians are works in progress. How do you feel about the quote "God isn't finished with me yet."?

What if they are Christian cat lovers? (Just kidding)

I'm not catsknowme, of course, but I think I understand where the issue there's coming from...there is a certain subset of Christianity, not a denomination so much as a mindset that exists across the spectrum of denominations, that takes that quote as a license to do whatever they want. In a nutty paradox, this subset of Christianity overlaps with the subset of Christianity that thinks that many portions of traditional Christian ethics should be legislated and enforced, which creates a fascinating "do as I say, not as I do" form of whacked-out thinking.

There are MANY things that Christians do that are not right - doesn't make it any less wrong in what is done. The idea is to "strive" to make changes and to be more Christ-like in what we do.

We all sin from the time we are born.

I'm sorry, I still don't get it.

Disclaimer. I haven't read the book, and know nothing more than what was in the links provided by the OP.

But if the book is trying to lump all Christians and Christianity into one package, they are sorely missing the boat. I was raised Lutheran, which is one of probably hundreds of Protestant Christian denominations, and within the Lutheran Church there are several Synods, each that holds slightly different beliefs and practices.

Some believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible as in the "world" was created in 6 days and on the 7th day he rested. Those that take this literally believe that a "day" in the Bible is made up of 24 hours, but if the earth hadn't been created yet, how do we know that God measured time by standards that HE had not yet created?

So I gather that the premise of the book is that Christians are intolerant, judgmental and hypocritical. I think this varies greatly by the individual and by the denomination they belong to.

Churches after all, were invented by man. Whether you believe the Bible was divinely inspired and written by man, or actually written by the hand of God, the bottom line is that every one has a different belief and a different approach as to practice their faith.

My personal philosophy is that one's relationship with God is a private matter. And I don't believe one needs a relationship with a church to have a relationship with God. The one aspect of many "Christian" faiths that bothers me is the need to "spread the word" and convert all the sinners. No other religion that I know about does that. It become intrusive and often hypocritical to wear your religion on your sleeve, and I find it entirely uncomfortable.

Bottom line is I don't think you can paint all Christians with the same broad brush. Everyone is different and every church is different. And the Westboro Baptist Church is evil!

[quote=catsknowme;2876869] It would be interesting to read a book about being "unMuslim", but the Muslim culture is so harsh on those who act unMuslim it probably isn't as common.

Why, as soon as anyone criticises anything about Christianity, does someone have to say that they should be criticising Islam? If someone criticises the American Government, no-one says we should be having a go at Britain, or France, instead. And anyway, just as there are thousands of sects in Christianity, so there are in Islam, and much of what we think of as 'Muslim' is cultural and confined to one country or one sect.

There is a book written about a specific aspect of Islam as it happens, and it is called 'Being Muslim the Bosnian Way' which looks at how Islam has adapted itself to a particular country and how the Muslim people there lived alongside their Christian and Jewish neighbours until the political leaders ruined it all by starting an ethnic war in which both Christians and Muslims killed each other.

I just happen to have read this book because I lived in Bosnia, but I am sure there are others, just as there are many books about specific aspects/sects of Christianity. What is wrong is anybody saying that all members of any religion are all good/bad - there are good and bad everywhere, including those with no faith.

[quote=jennyranson;2878420] Exactly right. Because there is no one brand of Christianity, it is unfair to pass the same judgment on everyone who claims to be Christian.

I do believe that many young people are turning away from religion in general, and a lot of that has to do with the secular outspoken educators and textbooks that refer to creationism as a "myth" and not a "belief."

I'm going to take a stab at what catsknowme was meaning by what she said, because I feel the same way (I think )

I think she is referring to the christian belief that if you repent for your sins (sorry, I'm not exactly savvy on the terminology so I'm sure that's not 100% correct) you still get into heaven and that can seem like a "free pass" to do what you want as long as you say "I'm Sorry" to God. Now, I'm not talking about repenting for sins like lying, or even committing adultery, but heinous crimes against humanity, like murder or rape or abusing children. It really bothers me when a convicted killer repents like that's supposed to make it all better. I do know that Christians believe that the decision is ultimately in God's hand if they get into heaven, repenting aside. It just bothers me that these people do that. If I were God and you killed someone, there would be no free passes, no matter what

As a disclaimer, I'm not a Christian and do not claim to have a deep understanding of how it all works, but my thought is that if a person does not live their life in a good and moral way for the majority of the time, then no amount of repenting should be able to make up for it. This idea of repenting is hypocritical in my opinion.

I'm pretty interested in this book, I may have to check it out!

That's pretty much how I view it as well. And I have to admit, the idea of a child rapist and murderer going to the same "gloried hereafter" as the very child he kills, but a good person denied entry because he/she didn't grovel properly is one of the bigger problems I have understanding the Christian concept of a God. That's not the justice of a God, that's the justice of narcissism. "Just admire me and love me, and it's all good".

As for the book, I'll have to pass. Reading such things makes me feel like I'm borrowing someone else's opinion, and I have way too much fun coming up with my own.

Ok, well I understand what you mean, but I don't think of it that way. I think whoever coined the phrase meant that Christians screw up, but God still loves us and forgives us the same way a parent loves and forgives a child.

As a Christian, I admit that every time I read the Bible, I get more confused. Perhaps those who don't live their life in a good and moral way for the majority of the time will never be able to truly repent and ultimately not be forgiven.

Some things are mysteries. I believe that while I am still here on earth, I will never understand, but I trust God.

We have people claiming that not everyone who professes to be a Christian truly is; others who claim that you can't label all Christians with a single brush; and others that Christians are sinners, so their actions are naturally going to be imperfect. All of this raises the question: What does the word "Christian" even mean?

It would seem that the adjective is nearly useless outside of the theological setting and yet there is no shortage of "christian" businesses to be found where I live. What can I assume from such a claim? That they go to church, at least occasionally? That they're good people (and if so, does that mean the non-Christian owners aren't?) That after they steal my money, they'll ask God to forgive their sin? Or that they're just using it as a marketing ploy?

Similarly, there's a very vocal subset of the population who wants to remind us that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. Again, what does that mean? That they all went to church? They were good people? Or (what I suspect many people saying this mean) did the founders supposedly intend for the country to be a Christian-dominated hegemony in which all other religions were viewed as second-class?

What, then, makes a Christian? If every good and decent person I ever met turned out to be a Christian, I'd convert in a heartbeat. But that's not what I find in the world I live in. Some are good and decent people and others are vile and hateful. And I see the same thing when I look at members of any faith or belief system.

Fifty years ago, when people were largely insulated from other beliefs outside of the doors of their particular church, things like a preacher stealing money from the church or priests molesting children could probably be written off as "well, we're still better than them," but with the global communication infrastructure we have today, children can see that, "No, we do pretty much the same things that they do." So it's really no surprise that large numbers of young people are leaving the religion of their parents. They can smell hypocrisy, perhaps even better than adults can.

OK, I guess I've read enough stuff here, and in a bazillion other threads, about Christians, and what various people think makes a Christian, much of which makes me very sad. So, as a Christian (one flavour thereof), I have to respond.

[1] Simply stated, a Christian is someone who wants to be a follower of Christ, and to live as close as possible to the standard of love for one another and all things that he set. We aren't Christ, so we can't do it perfectly, and when we screw up, we are forgiven. And that, I think, is what that slogan is about. I don't particularly like the way it excludes people of other persuasions who are trying just as hard.

[2] There are many flavours of Christian, because we weren't around when he was, so there's a degree of interpretation required when discerning just what those standards are, and how to live them. Some are inclined toward a literal interpretation of the writings available to us, and take the Word in the Bible as literally written by God. Others try to study the societies in which those writings came to be, to understand how those circumstances might differ from today's, and therefore what remains literally relevant, and what is now symbolic. And there are many variations in between. None of us can know for sure, but what matters is that we try.

[3] Some wear their Christianity "on their sleeve", others prefer a more subtle statement, based solely in how they live their lives. My interpretation of a business's claim to be Christian is that it is run by someone of the former persuasion, who wants to let people of the same persuasion know that their values are observed by this business -- that they are "safe" doing business with this company. And also, to let people of other persuasions know that there is a standard observed here, which they believe to be desirable, but acknowledge others may have difficulty with for whatever reason. It's really just being up front with people, so they can decide whether this is a business they want to patronize.

[4] In any subset of humanity, you will find good and bad. Once born into a particular subset, one needs to be significantly disillusioned with it, in order to reject it, and stop identifying with it on at least some level. And there will always be people, born into a particular subset, who, while they don't entirely espouse the beliefs of that subset, find the label convenient. Some of those are still good people, others less so, unfortunately. But that is a condition of humanity -- not of Christianity. It applies, as does everything else I have said here, equally to any other religion, ethnic group, or other subset of humanity.

[5] Christians believe that Christ came to us both to show us God's love, and to atone for our sins. I have no idea what awaits me when I shed this body; I am confident that whatever it is will be orchestrated by a good and loving God, who loves all those other subsets just as well as he loves me, because he is also their God -- they just use a different name, and sometimes their interpretation differs somewhat from ours, but by and large, they are trying just as hard as we are to live decent lives.

[6] Christ said "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone." I do wish we could all follow that -- me, too -- I don't always get it right, either.

So, there are some thoughts. Completely uncharacteristic for me to be so public, so I will just leave them with you.

Excellent post, Fran, for Christians, non-Christians (members of other faiths) and total unbelievers alike!