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Separation of Church and State? - Page 2

post #31 of 39
5/17/10 at 8:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty's Mom View Post
IIRC I don't believe the Constitution or the Amendments specifically used the term, "separation of church and state." And it's interesting that those that scream this phrase the loudest and want "In God We Trust" removed from coin and currency and complain about a public display of a Christmas tree or the Ten Commandments, don't scream and complain when a minister endorses a political candidate from the pulpit. Seems like a double standard to me!
Well, that doesn't describe me at all. I want "In God We Trust" removed as our national motto AND I have a problem with religious figures endorsing candidates or laws from the pulpit. Quite frankly, I've quite rarely met anyone who feels the way I do about the first that doesn't feel the same about the second. As I said, when religious figures start favoring one politician over another, the politicians are going to end up favoring one religion over another. So I view the belief that the 1st Amendment is implicitly stating that religious leaders shouldn't be getting involved in politics either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty's Mom View Post
And endorsing a particular political candidate and encouraging your parishioners to do the same can jeopardize the tax exempt status of religious organizations under the IRS rules governing 501(c)3 non-profit organizations.
There's actually a pretty vocal group that claims that the whole purpose of the 501c3 tax exemption is specifically to take away the right of the churches to speak out on political matters. Personally, I'd like to see the general religious exemption ended and have religions apply for tax-exempt just like any other charity, e.g., if they use their donations to build soup kitchens it's tax-exempt, but if they use it to buy the pastor a Rolls Royce they have to pay taxes.
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post #32 of 39
5/18/10 at 4:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty's Mom View Post
Proof of what? That there are people who protest every year over Christmas in the White House? Christmas decorations at the Capitol? Honestly you would have to be living in a vacuum not to be aware of the war against Christmas!

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

Like I said. Wait until Nov. and the protests will start again. Happens every year, but it's such old mundane repetitive news, that it doesn't get much press attention.

Just google "war against christmas" and you'll have lots of proof!
The first paragraph of the link you provided:
Quote:
With increasing threats, lawsuits and exposure over what constitutes a ‘legal Christmas season’ in this country, it is astounding albeit wonderful, that the current White House administration, President and Congress have not decided to remove the word Christmas or Christ from the upcoming tree lighting ceremony in Washington D.C.
That's a long way from "the annual ritual of lighting the National Christmas Tree is in danger." Protests are nothing more than citizens exercising their right to free speech. You do not object to that, do you?

I googled "war against Christmas" and the first link to come up was a reference to an asinine interview with Bill O'Reilly.
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200511210003
Evidently the right wing propaganda machine is trying to convince their faithful that there is a "secular progressive agenda" that is trying to get rid of Christmas. What is astounding is that anyone believes that "secular progressives" are responsible for major retailers like JC Penney and K-Mart saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

What is even worse is the hooey this man spouts - he refers to western Europe, where they do not even have separation of church and state (one of the major parties in Germany is the Christian Democrats, and church representatives hold a place on the boards of the state run media networks). How can anyone so clueless have any kind of credibility?

Oh wait, check this out, Fox News is also now wishing its viewers "Happy Holidays."
http://mediamatters.org/blog/200912220028
I guess Fox News has also been taken over by "secular progressives."

Here is a good analysis of what is really happening.
Quote:
Barry Lynn, an ordained minister and executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, isn't keen on the prospect of congressional action.

"Resolutions like this come up because there is this bizarre view by some members of Congress that there is a war on Christmas and that they have to be the generals in some responding army," he said.
...
"Republicans and conservatives have definitely gained a lot of political points by pointing out some of the silliest and more extreme examples of political correctness," said Tom Smith, director of the General Social Survey at the National Opinion Research Center.

But Republicans also should worry about pushing it too far, he added, because the American people believe in "good liberal thoughts" like "diversity and different people all being treated the same." It's OK to attack political correctness, he said, but the GOP must be careful not to come off as "anti-minority or against diversity."
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/12/...mas/index.html
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post #33 of 39
5/18/10 at 7:50am
Actually, the "War on Christmas" is the invention of OReilly and an ex-Fox News anchor named John Gibson to sell Gibson's book titled...get this..."The War on Christmas". Catchy title, huh.
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post #34 of 39
5/19/10 at 5:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Actually, the "War on Christmas" is the invention of OReilly and an ex-Fox News anchor named John Gibson to sell Gibson's book titled...get this..."The War on Christmas". Catchy title, huh.
So you're disputing the fact that there is a war on Christmas just because Gibson chose to write a book about it? Starting right around Thanksgiving the sh*t-stirrers climb out of their caves and start complaining about the secular symbols of our national holiday just because the holiday has the word "Christ" embedded in it. Happens every year.
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post #35 of 39
5/19/10 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty's Mom View Post
So you're disputing the fact that there is a war on Christmas just because Gibson chose to write a book about it? Starting right around Thanksgiving the sh*t-stirrers climb out of their caves and start complaining about the secular symbols of our national holiday just because the holiday has the word "Christ" embedded in it. Happens every year.
Well, for one, it's another example of how people will badly misuse the word "war" for dramatic effect (or to sell books). A handful of people filing lawsuits hardly constitutes a war. Then, you take into account the nature of the lawsuits, their being in response to religious symbolism on public (city/county/state/federal) property or, being denied the right to display symbols of their own religion while others are approved.

I'm familiar with that one first hand. A friend of mine is mayor of a small town, which used to have a nativity on the square. The city itself made the decision to stop displaying it, because they were told they had to allow a Jewish display as well, and in his own words, they didn't want "those people's trash" alongside the nativity. So, they made the decision themselves, yet to this day, blame the Jews for "stealing" it. I imagine lying to themselves that way feeds their need to feel persecuted.

The only lawsuits I know of that contest the actual secular symbols are from how many atheists?...2, maybe 3, the same little group every year?
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post #36 of 39
5/19/10 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Well, for one, it's another example of how people will badly misuse the word "war" for dramatic effect (or to sell books). A handful of people filing lawsuits hardly constitutes a war. Then, you take into account the nature of the lawsuits, their being in response to religious symbolism on public (city/county/state/federal) property or, being denied the right to display symbols of their own religion while others are approved.

I'm familiar with that one first hand. A friend of mine is mayor of a small town, which used to have a nativity on the square. The city itself made the decision to stop displaying it, because they were told they had to allow a Jewish display as well, and in his own words, they didn't want "those people's trash" alongside the nativity. So, they made the decision themselves, yet to this day, blame the Jews for "stealing" it. I imagine lying to themselves that way feeds their need to feel persecuted.

The only lawsuits I know of that contest the actual secular symbols are from how many atheists?...2, maybe 3, the same little group every year?
I guess how many complaints there must be before it is a "war" is subjective. And my own subjective opinion is there are enough attention-seekers complaining about something or other to the point that children in many schools can no longer sing "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" or "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer". Fortunately that part of the "war" hasn't hit our local school districts yet. But there is no doubt in my mind that there is a "war" against anything Christmas being waged by a very vocal minority. And I'm not participating. And this has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
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post #37 of 39
5/20/10 at 2:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty's Mom View Post
I guess how many complaints there must be before it is a "war" is subjective. And my own subjective opinion is there are enough attention-seekers complaining about something or other to the point that children in many schools can no longer sing "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" or "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer". Fortunately that part of the "war" hasn't hit our local school districts yet. But there is no doubt in my mind that there is a "war" against anything Christmas being waged by a very vocal minority. And I'm not participating. And this has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
In the cases of such Christmas songs, it's almost always a case of school officials taking an "over enthusiastic" stance, and not a lawsuit, that has the songs prohibited, and almost always again, reversed when people point this out. Not many years ago a school system tried to removed Jingle Bells from it's "approved list", and Jingle Bells doesn't even mention Christmas at all; it's a seasonal song.

All too often, it's just like the mayor I mentioned, overcompensating to the point of silliness, then claiming victimisation, persecution, or casualty of "war".

But I agree, there is that very vocal minority, that same little group I mentioned before that jumps in every year. But to label their actions a "war" is like calling a Hotwheels a Hummer.
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post #38 of 39
5/20/10 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
In the cases of such Christmas songs, it's almost always a case of school officials taking an "over enthusiastic" stance, and not a lawsuit, that has the songs prohibited, and almost always again, reversed when people point this out. Not many years ago a school system tried to removed Jingle Bells from it's "approved list", and Jingle Bells doesn't even mention Christmas at all; it's a seasonal song.

All too often, it's just like the mayor I mentioned, overcompensating to the point of silliness, then claiming victimisation, persecution, or casualty of "war".

But I agree, there is that very vocal minority, that same little group I mentioned before that jumps in every year. But to label their actions a "war" is like calling a Hotwheels a Hummer.
As I said before, that is subjective, and I happen to disagree. It is BECAUSE of the very vocal minority that schools ARE OVER-REACTING and are prohibiting any Christmas songs. It is very popular to be a "victim" these days!
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post #39 of 39
5/20/10 at 7:54pm
You know, when you think about it...a really, really savvy book publisher with a title like "The War on Christmas" to sell, wouldn't have the least bit of trouble finding a highly vocal minority to create a stink.

Then, all you would need is a pundit or commentator (who may or may not be the authors buddy) whining "War on Christmas" to sell a bundle of books.

Because if one plays their cards right, it's quite profitable to be a victim too.
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