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Georgia Seniors told they can't say Grace before Meals

post #1 of 105
5/10/10 at 6:54pm
Thread Starter 
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/23495797/detail.html

Quote:
But Senior Citizens Inc. officials said Friday the meals they are contracted by the city to provide to Ed Young visitors are mostly covered with federal money, which ushers in the burden of separating church and state.

On Thursday, the usual open prayer before meals at the center was traded in for a moment of silence.

The dilemma is being hashed out by the Port Wentworth city attorney, said Mayor Glenn "Pig" Jones.

Tim Rutherford, Senior Citizens Inc. vice president, said some of his staff recently visited the center and noticed people praying shortly before lunch was served. Rutherford said his company provides meals like baked chicken, steak tips and rice and salads at a cost of about $6 a plate. Seniors taking the meals pay 55 cents and federal money foots the rest of the bill, Rutherford said.

"We can't scoff at their rules," he said of federal authorities. "It's a part of the operational guidelines."
God forbid, we can't have these elderly people saying grace before a meal OUT LOUD, who ever heard of such a deplorable thing.
Much better to upset these old folks, they will die soon anyway so who really cares, right?
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post #2 of 105
5/10/10 at 6:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/23495797/detail.html



God forbid, we can't have these elderly people saying grace before a meal OUT LOUD, who ever heard of such a deplorable thing.
Much better to upset these old folks, they will die soon anyway so who really cares, right?
Does saying it out loud work any better?
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post #3 of 105
5/10/10 at 9:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Does saying it out loud work any better?
Old people tend to be set in their ways and some of them are used to having that as a little ceremony. Would it really be that big a deal, as long as it's completely voluntary, to just humor them?
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post #4 of 105
5/11/10 at 2:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrillblaiddes View Post
Old people tend to be set in their ways and some of them are used to having that as a little ceremony. Would it really be that big a deal, as long as it's completely voluntary, to just humor them?
Not a big deal at all. All they have to do is reject the federal funding, and they can then engage in any kind of rituals they want.
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post #5 of 105
5/11/10 at 7:43am
Should I worry? I work for a public university and I pray (OUT LOUD) before I send email that might be university-politically sensitive. I mean, my place of work does not tell me I HAVE to pray, and I don't force anyone to pray with me.

What happened to that very First Amendment that states:
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
To me, this is prohibiting the free exercise of their religion. :/
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post #6 of 105
5/11/10 at 8:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by emrldsky View Post
Should I worry? I work for a public university and I pray (OUT LOUD) before I send email that might be university-politically sensitive. I mean, my place of work does not tell me I HAVE to pray, and I don't force anyone to pray with me.

What happened to that very First Amendment that states:

To me, this is prohibiting the free exercise of their religion. :/
I guess once you get so old and are in a nursing home you aren't deserving of 1st Amendment Rights anymore.
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post #7 of 105
5/11/10 at 8:46am
They can pray.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/10/prayers-answered/
And hopefully everyone is free to pray to the deity of their choice.
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post #8 of 105
5/11/10 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
They can pray.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/10/prayers-answered/
And hopefully everyone is free to pray to the deity of their choice.
They've never been prevented from it. We have Christians at work that pray silently over their lunch every day.

They simply can not do the religion exclusive communal prayer. It's terribly funny how praying to themselves is always sufficient, UNTIL someone is watching...making a grand show of being holy. That's mentioned in the bible as being something bad, isn't it?

Hint, look in Matthew, Chapter 6.
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post #9 of 105
5/11/10 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I guess once you get so old and are in a nursing home you aren't deserving of 1st Amendment Rights anymore.
I suppose a single religion prayer wouldn't be a problem, seeing as Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Wiccans, etc etc etc never get old or end up in nursing homes.
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post #10 of 105
5/11/10 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by emrldsky View Post
Should I worry? I work for a public university and I pray (OUT LOUD) before I send email that might be university-politically sensitive. I mean, my place of work does not tell me I HAVE to pray, and I don't force anyone to pray with me.

What happened to that very First Amendment that states:

To me, this is prohibiting the free exercise of their religion. :/
No need at all to worry, if the University isn't promoting it.

It doesn't prohibit the free exercise of their religion...it does, however, prevent them excluding other faiths and from making a grand spectacle of it, something their very own bible tells them NOT to do! But, religion being used for political purposes doesn't necessarily have to follow it's own rules, the end justifies the means in religious politics.
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post #11 of 105
5/11/10 at 9:47am
This is a country of diversity. If people want to pray to whatever deity they worship they should be allowed to do so. But it should not be done at the expense or discomfort of others around them. I'm tolerant of all religions as long as they are not forced upon me. Being in the majority doesn't mean you own the country.

I'm not religious. When I'm in a public place where a public prayer is made, I sit through it silently. When I don't bow my head (which I never do anymore), I have received glaring looks from people sitting around me. It is interesting that whenever I've attended Jewish or Muslim ceremonies and don't know how the rituals go, I've not received the same glaring stares. I get the sense that minority religions are more tolerant than the majority religion. And doesn't that go against what that religion stands for?

If these seniors want to pray, they can do it to themselves. Why is there such a strong need to do a group prayer?
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post #12 of 105
5/11/10 at 10:47am
Maybe I'm just in a weird mood today, but what I found most remarkable about this story is that the mayor of Port Wentworth goes by the moniker "Pig"!
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post #13 of 105
5/11/10 at 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/23495797/detail.html



God forbid, we can't have these elderly people saying grace before a meal OUT LOUD, who ever heard of such a deplorable thing.
Much better to upset these old folks, they will die soon anyway so who really cares, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrillblaiddes View Post
Old people tend to be set in their ways and some of them are used to having that as a little ceremony. Would it really be that big a deal, as long as it's completely voluntary, to just humor them?
Quote:
"This country means a lot to me, but the part that I don't respect is it telling me I cannot pray over my meal," Jones said. "I can't accept and look them 65- and 70-year-olds in the eyes and tell them they cannot pray and bless their meals."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/10/prayers-answered/

Engel v. Vitale was back in 1962, meaning today's 70-year-olds would have been 22 at the time of the Supreme Court decision, and the majority of them would have had children who went to school and were affected by the decision. Are they now really going to be so upset by having to say grace in silence? That sounds like a pretext to me.
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post #14 of 105
5/11/10 at 12:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
They can pray.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/10/prayers-answered/
And hopefully everyone is free to pray to the deity of their choice.
That is awesome news, thank you for posting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
They've never been prevented from it. We have Christians at work that pray silently over their lunch every day.

They simply can not do the religion exclusive communal prayer. It's terribly funny how praying to themselves is always sufficient, UNTIL someone is watching...making a grand show of being holy. That's mentioned in the bible as being something bad, isn't it?

Hint, look in Matthew, Chapter 6.
Oh yes, they "simply" can do a communal prayer. Read the link.
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post #15 of 105
5/11/10 at 12:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
No need at all to worry, if the University isn't promoting it.

It doesn't prohibit the free exercise of their religion...it does, however, prevent them excluding other faiths and from making a grand spectacle of it, something their very own bible tells them NOT to do! But, religion being used for political purposes doesn't necessarily have to follow it's own rules, the end justifies the means in religious politics.


Well it is a really good thing that these elderly people, in the nursing home, were NOT "excluding" anyone that wanted to pray from praying. They, also, were NOT making, "a grand spectacle" out of saying a grace before a meal.

I do realize that many people consider saying grace before a meal, "a grand spectacle," I'm just not one of those people.
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post #16 of 105
5/11/10 at 12:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
This is a country of diversity. If people want to pray to whatever deity they worship they should be allowed to do so. But it should not be done at the expense or discomfort of others around them. I'm tolerant of all religions as long as they are not forced upon me. Being in the majority doesn't mean you own the country.

I'm not religious. When I'm in a public place where a public prayer is made, I sit through it silently. When I don't bow my head (which I never do anymore), I have received glaring looks from people sitting around me. It is interesting that whenever I've attended Jewish or Muslim ceremonies and don't know how the rituals go, I've not received the same glaring stares. I get the sense that minority religions are more tolerant than the majority religion. And doesn't that go against what that religion stands for?

If these seniors want to pray, they can do it to themselves. Why is there such a strong need to do a group prayer?
1. Did you read the article? If you had you would know that nothing was done at the "expense or discomfort of others around them" No one in the home objected at all, all the elderly people wanted to say grace before the meal. Do you have a problem with them saying grace before a meal?

No one was trying to force anything on anyone, they want to say grace before their meal.

I can think of, at least, one "minority religion" that has extremist that wouldn't just give you a "glaring look" for not bowing your head, they would cut your head OFF and be done with it.

And if people were giving you "glaring looks" for not bowing your head in prayer (your perogative) that means that they were not bowing their heads either.

They don't have to pray "to themselves" anymore, the rule has been rescinded. Did you not read 2dogmom's link?

No one can tell me I cannot say grace befor a meal out loud, no one.
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post #17 of 105
5/11/10 at 12:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/10/prayers-answered/

Engel v. Vitale was back in 1962, meaning today's 70-year-olds would have been 22 at the time of the Supreme Court decision, and the majority of them would have had children who went to school and were affected by the decision. Are they now really going to be so upset by having to say grace in silence? That sounds like a pretext to me.
I graduated quite a few years after that decision and we still prayed in school. Group prayers, the Lord's Prayer.
Just because that law came down in 1962 doesn't mean that school's stopped prayer in them.
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post #18 of 105
5/11/10 at 2:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Well it is a really good thing that these elderly people, in the nursing home, were NOT "excluding" anyone that wanted to pray fro praying. They, also, were NOT making, "a grand spectacle" out of saying a grace before a meal.

I do realize that many people consider saying grace before a meal, "a grand spectacle," I'm just not one of those people.
According to Matthew 6:6, it is! Praying out loud, in public, is perceived as merely trying to prove yourself holy to those mortals around you. Of course, if you want to merely blow off Matthew, you have every right to do so.

But then again, would that make it improper of them to do all that quoting people do of Matthew, while blowing him off on the prayer thing? Is that the "pick and choose" you hear about alot?
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post #19 of 105
5/11/10 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post

No one can tell me I cannot say grace befor a meal out loud, no one.
Not even an apostle?

Quote:
From Matthew...

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
And they do, indeed, have their reward. They get the kudos from people who think their very faith is a political tool.
Quote:
I can think of, at least, one "minority religion" that has extremist that wouldn't just give you a "glaring look" for not bowing your head, they would cut your head OFF and be done with it.
Matthew isn't in their book.
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post #20 of 105
5/11/10 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Oh yes, they "simply" can do a communal prayer. Read the link.
And now that the Federal Government is aware of the situation, oh yes they "simply" can pull the funding from the program. And will the good mayor or any of the other complainers then be anywhere nearly as quick to offer their "assistance" in making up the shortfall?
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post #21 of 105
5/11/10 at 3:43pm
I just did some googling on the % of different faiths in this country. Roughly 3/4 of the country follows a Christian based religion. The rest do not. What that tells me is that 1 in 4 of the people around you do not believe in a Christian prayer (before a meal or otherwise). But if you live in this country, you've been conditioned to simply accept it when it is done in public. I'm one of the 1 in 4 people that am frankly tired of having prayers forced on me. I can't help but cringe when I hear a politician finish a speech with "God bless the United States of America".

Why did I quit bowing while a prayer is offered? The same reason why I don't take communion while in church with my MIL, and the same reason why I sit quietly during a Muslim or Jewish service. First of all, I don't understand the reason behind the ritual and IMO, it would be hypocritical of me to pretend to go along with something I don't follow or entirely understand. It is not due to lack of respect of the religion, it is to keep respect for myself.
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post #22 of 105
5/11/10 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I guess once you get so old and are in a nursing home you aren't deserving of 1st Amendment Rights anymore.
According to the article it's not a nursing home, it is a senior center and the people eating are visiting the center not living there.
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post #23 of 105
5/11/10 at 6:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
According to Matthew 6:6, it is! Praying out loud, in public, is perceived as merely trying to prove yourself holy to those mortals around you. Of course, if you want to merely blow off Matthew, you have every right to do so.

But then again, would that make it improper of them to do all that quoting people do of Matthew, while blowing him off on the prayer thing? Is that the "pick and choose" you hear about alot?
Seeing as how you don't, and I know I don't, have any way of knowing the bolded portions of above, as it pertains to the seniors wanting to say grace, I will leave it to the Lord, he knows what is in people's hearts when they pray.

I believe Matthew, I just don't believe every person that says grace before a meal is doing so to prove themself holy. I do understand the admonition though and agree with it.
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post #24 of 105
5/11/10 at 6:59pm
So is it gonna kill anyone to sit there and hear a prayer being said thanking God for the food provided? NO. And I would tell them to go right ahead and stand up and thank God for the food - what are they gonna do? Arrest every senior citizen there?

NO one is gonna stop me from praying any time and any where I choose. We say prayers in restaurants before we eat - and its OUT LOUD - not so others can hear, but we can hear each other at the table.

This politically correct cr*p has GOT to stop!
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post #25 of 105
5/11/10 at 9:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
So is it gonna kill anyone to sit there and hear a prayer being said thanking God for the food provided? NO. And I would tell them to go right ahead and stand up and thank God for the food - what are they gonna do? Arrest every senior citizen there?

NO one is gonna stop me from praying any time and any where I choose. We say prayers in restaurants before we eat - and its OUT LOUD - not so others can hear, but we can hear each other at the table.

This politically correct cr*p has GOT to stop!
So is it gonna kill anyone to refrain from making a religious spectacle of themselves in front of other people. NO.

It can be stopped very, VERY easily. They only need find the money for their program somewhere else.

So, is there any real reason to pray on display for others OTHER than the vain reason of being seen doing it?
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post #26 of 105
5/12/10 at 5:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Seeing as how you don't, and I know I don't, have any way of knowing the bolded portions of above, as it pertains to the seniors wanting to say grace, I will leave it to the Lord, he knows what is in people's hearts when they pray.

I believe Matthew, I just don't believe every person that says grace before a meal is doing so to prove themself holy. I do understand the admonition though and agree with it.
You don't know, nor do I, and apparently Matthew didn't either, as all I stated with a dynamic equivalent of what he said. And I don't believe everyone that says grace is trying to prove themselves holy either. But, those that MUST do it out loud in the presence of others certainly are.

Besides, simply repeating that same tired prayer at every meal, sometimes switching up 2 or 3, still falls to the wayside of what Matthew said;

Quote:
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
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post #27 of 105
5/12/10 at 5:42am
Skippy just because YOU don't like it, why should the rest of us have to bow down to you (per say). No reason in the world that someone cannot sit and pray before eating. Why should we do it in silence? Because one or two don't want to hear us simply thank God for what he gives us?

I'm sure they are not all standing up and shouting and praying to God, like you quote from Matthew. They are simply thanking God and asking for everyone to be blessed - why do you have a problem with that?

And what if it were all Muslim or another religion and they were doing the exact same thing....I'm "sure" that it would be allowed. Its being challanged because its Christian.

And IMO those that don't want to hear a government employee, etc end a speech with "God Bless America"...........they can choose to go live in another country. America was based on Christian values like it or not, even tho American is a nation of nations.
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post #28 of 105
5/12/10 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Skippy just because YOU don't like it, why should the rest of us have to bow down to you (per say). No reason in the world that someone cannot sit and pray before eating. Why should we do it in silence? Because one or two don't want to hear us simply thank God for what he gives us?

I'm sure they are not all standing up and shouting and praying to God, like you quote from Matthew. They are simply thanking God and asking for everyone to be blessed - why do you have a problem with that?

And what if it were all Muslim or another religion and they were doing the exact same thing....I'm "sure" that it would be allowed. Its being challanged because its Christian.
Hey, it's your bible, not mine. And Matthew did not, anywhere in that entire passage, say anything about shouting. See, it goes like this;

Quote:
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
...that they may be seen of men. Not shouting, trumpeting, etc. Praying where they can been seen, too be seen. He also didn't say "except for" or, "unless you really mean it"...he just said "DON'T". And he wasn't talking to the Muslims when he said it. They have their rituals just as every faith does.

Quote:
And IMO those that don't want to hear a government employee, etc end a speech with "God Bless America"...........they can choose to go live in another country. America was based on Christian values like it or not, even tho American is a nation of nations.
Yes, it was. The men who created that government had fought against a Christian nation for years, losing friends, family and property. They knew full well what "Christian Nation" meant, which is why they didn't want one. Yet the very first thing the good Christian citizens wanted of the new nation was 1) to make it a Kingdom, and 2) to fund the "correct" Churches through taxation. (makes you wonder when they picked up that abhorrence to taxes, doesn't it? ) And thankfully, the fathers saw through that nonsense and put the issue to bed with their very first Amendment.

It's actually kind of odd for one to claim to be so faithful, yet will violate passages of their own bible because they want to do things the way another religion does it, or because they think they have to to "stay even" publicity wise.
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post #29 of 105
5/12/10 at 6:13am
My opinion is, pray out loud if no one minds. If someone is offended by your public praying, be considerate and do it more quietly.

It's a free country, including religion, yes. But if everyone would just be a little less determined to exercise their rights, and a little more sensitive to the feelings of others, life in this world would be a lot more pleasant.

In other words one may have the right to pray aloud publicly, but another has the right to quiet. Who is causing more "offense"? The one who wishes for quiet, or the one who insists on his right to "pray out loud"? The pray-er can still pray, but quietly. The one who wishes for silence has no other option, in the public place.

Praying aloud around a table in a public restaurant in my opinion is a bid for attention. Look at us how holy we are, we pray aloud in restaurants. It can be done quietly and unobtrusively, your Deity will still hear you.

In my opinion.
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post #30 of 105
5/12/10 at 6:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Not a big deal at all. All they have to do is reject the federal funding, and they can then engage in any kind of rituals they want.
OK, let me make sure I have this straight.

People have been through a disaster, say, oh, a hurricane. They haven't been able to get off their roof since their house was flooded 3 days ago. They don't have any food or water.

The big helicopter swoops down and lowers the rope lift. The mother of the family, who thought she and her family were doomed, says, loudly, "Thank you, Jesus, for answering our prayers!!!"

The big helicopter reels in the rope lift and flies away, leaving the evil violators of church and state separation to die on their roof.
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