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CFA and bengals

post #1 of 47
5/3/10 at 1:10pm
Thread Starter 
There are some rumblings going on in the cat world about CFA taking another look at adding the bengal cat to their registry. There is a "meet and greet" bengal exhibition being planned for a CFA show.

They must be finally realizing that the bengal isn't going away, has become the world's most popular short haired purebreed cat, and they are missing the boat!

I'm sure they are also tired of hearing spectator after spectator ask, "where are the bengals?"

Personally I can take CFA or leave them. Mostly just a bunch of cranky old crows showing on this coast, but bringing the bengals in would sure boost CFA's bottom line.
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post #2 of 47
5/3/10 at 1:56pm
It has turned into a nasty debate.
I have already been been bashed in CFA because I was showing Ty.
My Wrinkles in not even liked in CFA so if there is a choice between a TICA or CFA show I will go to the TICA show.
Also we have some of the snobbiest people in CFA out here.
I have met nice people also.
They are talking about allowing Bengals in the future.
If they do my sister will show in CFA also.
Cleo is liked in both.
If Polar does not do well in CFA then I will only show him in TICA also.
He did fine there.
People always ask where the Bengals are and some people have got mad because they are not at CFA shows.
The Oci's and Maus always get mistaken for Bnegals.
One CFA said that she has given Bengals best all breed when she has judged in other countries.



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post #3 of 47
5/3/10 at 2:03pm
HUGE, HUGE thread on the CFA-LIST, and it has been ongoing for years. I'd be surprised if CFA accepted Bengals anytime soon; just going by the opinions and objections raised on that informal list. The CFA can't just accept Bengals and be done with it, they'd need to revisit the entire concept of 'no wild blood'. This would open the door, so to speak, for Savannah's, Chaussies, Safari's and the various other new cats being developed.

I'm not saying it will never happen, I just think that it is a larger issue than it may sound at first.

Some points that have been brought up (not necessarily my own opinion, just a small sample of the objections being raised):
  • Assertions from breeders that ALCs are still being used in active breeding programs. Therefore not all Bengals are f4 or higher.
  • The website of Jean Mill clearly outlines a history of her ALCs killing, and sometimes eating the domestic cats placed with them.
  • F1 and F2 Bengal queens having a propensity for killing and/or eating their own litters, causing the need for fostering them out as soon as they are born.
  • Someone has even done some number crunching on new breed allowances in the CFA and states that the admission of Bengals won't increase revenue for CFA all that much.

Since Mau breeders have been attacked so viciously on Jean Mills website, I think that there will be a continued ill will toward Bengals in general. I know that most of the Mau people I know are pretty much dead set against advising CFA to accept them.

Very thorny subject.
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post #4 of 47
5/3/10 at 2:17pm
I have been reading all the posts on the CFA list.
It is a nasty debate.


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post #5 of 47
5/3/10 at 4:15pm
Thread Starter 
My opinion on this, is that it will all sort itself out over time. Humans have created nearly all breeds of cats. All cats were wild at one time, so all cats technically have wild blood.
The old guard in CFA is changing. The new bloods are more open to change.
CFA needs to stay current, if they want to remain on top of the registry heap.
TICA is nippin' their heels, ready and able to take over as number one.

I prefer TICA, they are more open minded, however if CFA wants to get with the times and be more accepting, I would be willing to give them a chance and register some cats with them.
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post #6 of 47
5/3/10 at 7:32pm
If a CFA club plans to have Bengals at a showhall in conjunction with a licensed CFA event, they will be in direct violation of CFA show rule 13.15. This is something that will be protested and could result in dire consequences for all individuals involved, especially if the club knowingly organized and promoted the violation of the aforementioned show rule.

As for CFA being full of 'snobs'. . . I am proud of my cats and the success we have enjoyed in CFA. I compete against the best representatives of my chosen breed in the world, so when my cats do well, I am very proud of what they have accomplished. I don't want to win unless I can win against the best in my breed, and if that makes me a CFA snob, then so be it!
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post #7 of 47
5/3/10 at 8:07pm
Renee when I say snobs I mean certain people and none of them are Mai breeders.
It has been some of the Persian breeders that have been snobs.
I also have friends in CFA that are Persian breeders.
Of course there are nasty people in TICA also.
I will continue to show in both CFA and TICA.
My friend shows in both CFA and TICA and she will be a TICA judge sometime next year.
I almost never showed because some people were so mean to me on one of the sphynx lists.
Cleo has always been liked in CFA.

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post #8 of 47
5/4/10 at 4:04am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisCat View Post
If a CFA club plans to have Bengals at a showhall in conjunction with a licensed CFA event, they will be in direct violation of CFA show rule 13.15. This is something that will be protested and could result in dire consequences for all individuals involved, especially if the club knowingly organized and promoted the violation of the aforementioned show rule.
This is coming down from the top. Rules change.

I don't understand the old school CFA people and their holier than thou attitude.
It even comes across in the second part of your post, which I didn't quote. It's like you believe the Mau's competing in TICA or ACFA are no good and competing against them would be worthless.
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post #9 of 47
5/4/10 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
This is coming down from the top. Rules change
Then I hope those initiating this change are willing to accept the consequences of their actions. The 'top' is only in power because they were put into power by the member clubs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
It's like you believe the Mau's competing in TICA or ACFA are no good and competing against them would be worthless.
It seems quite a bit like you're personally baiting me and have bone to pick with those who choose CFA over other associations.

I think we all have a vision of what our ideal representative of a breed would look like. You have your vision of the perfect Bengal, I have my own of the perfect Egyptian Mau. The judges in CFA have been consistent in rewarding cats that come closest to that vision, and I am fortunate to be able to compete on a weekly basis against a sizeable number of cats from catteries that are also striving for similar visions.

In ACFA, the Mau breed does not even have anybody on their breed executive committee. I do not think I am going out on a limb when I draw the conclusion that my chosen breed does not have much of a presence in ACFA. and thus, little competition.
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post #10 of 47
5/4/10 at 9:42am
I have showed in all three associations, and met both nice and not-nice people at every show.

I personally think that Bengals are beautiful cats, but the breeding of hybrids, of any kind, to domestics, is not natural as was the development of the species we know as the domestic cat. It is not the same thing in my mind and it doesn't have a lot to do with the 'old guard'. Domestics died in the making of Bengals, kittens die in the development of Savannahs. I have statements directly from a Savannah/Aby breeder.. their gestation periods are so different that the kittens are born too soon to survive. She uses this justification to explain the enormous cost of purchasing her kittens.

The rationale behind 'no wild blood' is not fear of the Bengals taking over as the top cat or winning up all the best awards, for me it is simply that the ends do not justify the means.
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post #11 of 47
5/4/10 at 1:14pm
The Ocicat didn't have a breed chair till recently! We recruited an Oci breeder who was tired of the politics in CFA to come and join us and she's wonderful. She likes ACFA much better then CFA.

We did it cause I don't breed Ocicats and we needed a correction with the color descriptions.
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post #12 of 47
5/4/10 at 1:20pm
Thread Starter 
Sohni,

I'd like to know how many domestics you know that died in the process of "making" the bengal cat?
You do realize that the Asian Leopard Cat is a smaller cat than a domestic and is a non-violent, non-aggressive cat. There is much mis-information out there about the ALC.

If the ends don't justify the means, no one would be breeding cats. Female cats die sometimes giving birth, kittens die sometimes. One could make the argument that those deaths would have been prevented had no breeding taken place.
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post #13 of 47
5/4/10 at 1:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisCat View Post



It seems quite a bit like you're personally baiting me and have bone to pick with those who choose CFA over other associations.
Actually nope, I wasn't trying to bait you at all. I just wanted you to know how your post came across to me and that this is the attitude that is reflected by many CFA exhibitors.
And, to be quite honest, I don't have a bone to pick with those who choose CFA over TICA, etc. To each their own. I just don't like the elitist attitude and if that's what CFA is all about, then I'm happy right here in TICA's world.
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post #14 of 47
5/4/10 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
Sohni,

I'd like to know how many domestics you know that died in the process of "making" the bengal cat?
You do realize that the Asian Leopard Cat is a smaller cat than a domestic and is a non-violent, non-aggressive cat. There is much mis-information out there about the ALC.

If the ends don't justify the means, no one would be breeding cats. Female cats die sometimes giving birth, kittens die sometimes. One could make the argument that those deaths would have been prevented had no breeding taken place.
Jean Mill's recount of her part in the Bengal history began in 1963. I wasn't born until 1970. She states that one of her domestics was eaten by the ALC and another was killed during intercourse. I have met the Savannah breeder who is local to me, and she is very open about the fact that kitten survival rate is extremely low.

I am not going to pursue this any further as I have no problems with Bengals as they are now. I simply feel that allowing 'wild blood', so to speak, into CFA is not a good idea. Once that door is opened it cannot close, and I feel that there are enough registries condoning the development of new breeds (not Bengals) through the use of hybrids. It's just my opinion and I am in no position to affect CFA's decision one way or the other.
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post #15 of 47
5/4/10 at 2:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohni View Post
Jean Mill's recount of her part in the Bengal history began in 1963. I wasn't born until 1970. She states that one of her domestics was eaten by the ALC and another was killed during intercourse. I have met the Savannah breeder who is local to me, and she is very open about the fact that kitten survival rate is extremely low.
I repect your decision to bow out of the conversation. I just want to make a few comments on your last post.
There is no way physically possible for an ALC to eat a domestic. These are 8 pound cats. Unless she meant the ALC ate a domestic kitten. I could see that happening, even the moggie tomcats will sometimes consume a kitten.

I can see an unskilled ALC possibly biting the females neck wrong and accidentally killing her in the process of mating. Although very rare, I'm sure this could happen with any breed of cat. All that would have to happen is for the female to roll on her side and the male bites the neck wrong and constricts the windpipe. A determined male may very well not let go inspite of protest from the female. However this certainly isn't the norm with ALC's bred to domestics.

Savannah's are an entirely different story. The serval used to create savannahs are 45 pound cats that stand nearly as tall as a doberman. If you told me there were lots of domestic deaths in the mating process, I could easily believe that.
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post #16 of 47
5/4/10 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
I just don't like the elitist attitude and if that's what CFA is all about, then I'm happy right here in TICA's world.
I don't think it is elitist to prefer one association over the other because you prefer a certain look that one association's judges reward. It's not elitist to want to compete against cats who are striving for a similar type. I'm not that interested in how my cats hold up against a Bombay or a Persian. I am much more interested in what they do in the breed itself. If you ever met me in person, you'd find me to be a far cry from an old crow or elitist snob

I am terribly curious about what show is conducting the meet and greet and who from CFA's top is organizing the event.
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post #17 of 47
5/5/10 at 7:55pm
I showed in CFA (HHP) a few times before TICA because those were the first shows I found in my area. I've noticed the people were nicer to me in the TICA shows I've been to and since HHPs don't get titles in CFA I decided to stick to TICA... Plus I was able to show my polydactyl Maine Coon as her actual breed in TICA (in New Traits) instead of a HHP, and people are currently working towards getting polys accepted for championship in TICA. It may not happen but it's more likely in TICA than CFA.
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post #18 of 47
5/5/10 at 10:46pm
Ok here is what I have noticed between CFA and TICA.
There are way more Persians and Cornish Rex in CFA.
TICA has way more American Bobtails,Ragdolls and Maine Coons.
I am not counting the breeds that are not allowed in CFA.
I have friends that are hard core TICA and some are Hard Core CFA.
I also have friends that show in both TICA and CFA.
I have asked TICA judges what they think of Wrinkles but have never asked CFA judges anything.
They have been talking about changing how HHP is done in CFA.
They also might discontinue Winner Ribbons.
I think a cat should have to make at least 1 final like TICA in order to advance.
It is so easy to get Winners Ribbons.






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post #19 of 47
5/5/10 at 11:42pm
I've noticed that too in TICA, there seem to be more Maine Coons and Ragdolls. I've also noticed the different looks, mostly with Maine Coons since that is the main breed I know about, the appearance/type that is popular in TICA vs. CFA looks much different, although I have seen both 'types' in TICA shows. My Maine Coon has more the CFA type look, but unfortunately wasn't eligible for being polydactyl...
I also wanted to mention that most of the HHP exhibitors I talked to were very nice and were helpful to me as someone new to showing. Some of the other people were not so nice though...
If it wasn't for the lack of titles for HHPs I would probably be showing in CFA too. They do regional scoring for HHPs for my region, but it's just not the same and since I can only get to shows within about an hour from me my cats are unlikely to receive a regional award because we only go to a few shows each year.
When I was showing them in CFA it felt like a lot of the judges didn't really care about the HHP class, they just wanted to get it over with. I have to say though they did give out some nice awards to the HHPs at some of the shows, such as actual medal made of metal at one CFA show...
I don't have experience with any other organizations as I've never seen a cat show here from any group other than CFA or TICA.
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post #20 of 47
5/6/10 at 12:23am
The standards for the sphynx are different also in CFA and TICA.
My Wrinkles does ok in TICA but terrible in CFA.
The TICA judges tell me she will do ok as a alter.
They seem to like Polar alot.
We will see what happens with him in CFA.
He may be to big for their standards.
I also was asked by a show mrgr at a TICA show to teach this lady how to show.
It was her first show and she was showing in HHP.
I also have been told that TICA likes the male sphynx big.
Polar Bare is big.
I have never seen a HHP judged before.
You know I had never been to any TICA show before I showed in TICA.
I got confused the first day.
I had been to about 5 CFA shows before I showed but never watched the judging.
I would love to go to a ACFA show to see what it is like but we do not have them out here.
There was one a year ago.




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post #21 of 47
5/6/10 at 7:44am
I've always shown in CFA and ACFA. My cats do well at both, but now there are only 1-2 CFA shows in my area - so I quit showing CFA. I do better in ACFA and Jack will be my 2nd cat that I've taken to the top (Quad Grand). Most of my cats I've granded in both associations, some only in ACFA.

I only showed one TICA show with my Cornie a long time ago - no TICA shows in my area and I really don't like the way TICA does things.

But to each his own - you go and support the associations where you do the best with your cat. HOWEVER, I do not put down cats, type or any person that chooses to show in an association. I do hate when you have the "diehards" of an association look down on others or a cat because its not shown in "their" association which they think is better.........and I know of a lot of people like that since I've been showing for over 20 yrs!
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post #22 of 47
5/6/10 at 12:50pm
If I ever show Cleo again it will be in both TICA and CFA since she was liked in both.
I will start showing Wrinkles in TICA only soon.

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post #23 of 47
5/6/10 at 1:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisCat View Post

I am terribly curious about what show is conducting the meet and greet and who from CFA's top is organizing the event.
That is being kept under wraps for the time being. Understandably so, because there are CFA members who are so perplexingly opposed to bengals it boggles the mind. It's a cat, pleasant to look at, pleasant to touch and pleasant to be around.

For the life of me, I don't understand these supposed "cat lover's" hatred for the breed.
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post #24 of 47
5/6/10 at 1:46pm
The people I talk with regularly do not hate Bengals. They are beautiful cats, with amazing coats/pelts. At this point, what they object to is simply the practice of including wild cats in their development.

Previously, I know that Bengals had a reputation for being vicious and judges may have been afraid to handle them, but it's pretty much accepted these days that they are as gentle as any cat. Heck, there are judges who still dislike Maus because of their reputation for scratching and biting when handled.

I had occasion recently to hear a group of CFA judges discuss them, and they were in agreement that they are nice animals. None of them were ready to accept the inclusion of wild blood however.
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post #25 of 47
5/6/10 at 2:49pm
Sohni - Having read through these posts, I am getting the sense that there is some sort of rivalry or disagreement between some Mau and Bengal breeders. Is that the case, or am I misreading you?

I don't think I am informed enough to have a strong opinion on this topic, but I thank everyone for their thoughts, because I find this debate very interesting. I am not a breeder, but I frequently attend shows (mostly CFA, some TICA - ACFA doesn't seem to have a strong presence in my region).
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post #26 of 47
5/6/10 at 3:32pm
From the little I know of Bengal breed history, Jean Mill was one of the first breeders to actively pursue the ALC/domestic cat combination. She looked for cats to breed with the ALC's that would not change (she says "trash the genes") the spotted or rosetted patterning of their coat. Originally, Egyptian Maus developed the spotting through natural selection, and were street cats in Northern Africa and India. In the beginning, Jean approached Mau breeders of the time to see if they were interested in working with her, both to develop the Bengal and to 'improve' the Mau breed. She was pretty much shut down, and on a trip to India, brought back her own spotted cats to breed with her Bengals.

I imagine that is where the hard feelings come from. Jean is very disparaging when she talks about traditional Maus on her site. Here is a quote,

Quote:
I offered him at stud to both the Ocicat breeders and the Mau breeders who needed better spotting. But the Ocicat people didn't want his blood, nor did a few Mau breeders who fought viciously to keep him and me out. A few visionary Egyptian Mau breeders, however, welcomed his beautiful, fresh 'Indian Mau' genes to improve upon the weak, inbred, poor tempered, poor producing Egyptian Mau bloodlines.
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post #27 of 47
5/6/10 at 3:42pm
Thanks for the background! As I said, I find all this fascinating.

My first introduction to Maus was at a cat show. I had seen pictures in the past, but never really appreciated them until I saw them in person. I especially like the smokes.

Bengals are beautiful too, of course!
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post #28 of 47
5/6/10 at 4:40pm
The Oci's were developed from Aby/Siamese and American SH backgrounds - and the spotting was a surprise as none of the above breeds have spotting. The Oci's didn't want any of the Bengals in the lines as the spotting has to be solid - not rosette.

However, there is rumor (and I've seen some questionable pics) of some breeders that work with both breeds have had "crosses" but lie on the pedigrees. I've seen Ocicats with a Bengal pattern and Bengals with more of a Oci pattern. There is a difference in the way the spotting comes out on the two breeds - if you really study the breed you start to "spot" those patterns and differences.

Motoko - there USED to be more ACFA clubs on the east coast back in the 80's/90's when I was living in Maryland. 1/2 of the clubs switched over to CFA for various reasons (mainly political).
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post #29 of 47
5/6/10 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Motoko - there USED to be more ACFA clubs on the east coast back in the 80's/90's when I was living in Maryland. 1/2 of the clubs switched over to CFA for various reasons (mainly political).
That explains it! I couldn't figure out why so many of their shows seemed to be in the Midwest or West.

On another note, I had been thinking about trying to go to the big international CFA show this year, but the CFA web site indicates that it has been canceled. Do you know why? I should have gone last year, when it was in Atlanta!
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post #30 of 47
5/6/10 at 5:49pm
It is true the show has been called off this year.
Atlanta was last Nov.
CFA has been having debates because TICA is gaining on them and one day will pass them up.
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