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Ongoing (And Escalating) Territorial Struggles :(

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I feel terrible even posting at this point, you guys must be sick of me by now, but I'm caught in the middle of an endless cycle of peacefully coexisting animals, and extremely nasty territorial aggression between those same animals, and not only could I use the support, maybe someone else will learn from my various mistakes and inexperience.

Sophie's territorial aggression towards Jack continues, following a very inconsistent pattern. Let's use the past 24 hours as an example. I tend to stay up all night, so I was just going to bed around 5:30am yesterday. Sophie, as has become her habit at bedtime, spent some time bugging Jack, kicking him out of his resting places by pouncing on him and nipping at him. This time (unlike the previous night/morning, when she was extremely aggressive and nearly unstoppable), I was able to divert her several times, until she settled down to sleep and lost interest. I woke up around noon with Sophie sleeping on the small of my back, Jack curled up on the bed about a foot away, both of them without a care at their close proximity.

They got along fine all day, which is usually the case. After they get their wet food "brunch" when I get up, they mostly sleep all day. Interactive playtime, as always, was totally Jack's thing; he will chase Da Bird until his little mouth hangs open and he pants. Sophie will just sit there and WATCH it until my arm gets tired from holding the wand up (I've tried I don't know how many different interactive toys at this point, and it's always the same). This evening, Sophie even allowed Jack to join her on the bed (in the hotly-contested bedroom, no less) and groom her a bit; awhile later, I found them sleeping *under* the bed, mere inches apart and totally content.

The past two hours or so have been a different story. Sophie has been relentlessly and repeatedly driving Jack from the room, constant nipping and pawing and a few wrestling matches. Once he's out of the room, she lies in the doorway, clearly attempting to warn him off via intimidation (I've been reading "Cat Vs Cat" by Pam Johnson-Bennett, which has clued me in to a few behaviors I wasn't aware of before). This is a new development, because usually she doesn't start this type of behavior until bedtime.

I think my only option at this point is reintroduction, but this brings about a new dilemma. Jack's original "safe room" is my upstairs bathroom. The weather is now very warm, and I don't have central a/c, so I would have to open the window for him. Jack, who oddly, seems to prefer being picked on by Sophie to being left by himself, WILL cry and moan in his Siamese-esque voice if I put him back in there. Since the window faces directly into the neighbors' bedroom (and they are not particularly tolerant or kind people under the best of circumstances), that's likely to result in a visit from the police with a "noise complaint." Really, now that he's recovered from his URI, it's simply too small a space for such a hugely-energetic cat anyway.

I'll have the second upstairs bedroom cleared out within the week - I'm also looking into options for fully enclosing the second floor so that it's like an "apartment" all to itself, which will give me both large bedrooms, a hall, and a bathroom, easily the size of a small apartment, and I won't have to worry about confining them both in the same room while I sleep. But in the meantime, I can't let her continue to harass him.

So, I never thought it would come to this, particularly after they seemed to get off to such a great start - but I will have to segregate SOPHIE for the night. It falls in line with some things suggested by Pam Johnson-Bennett in her book (about limiting the space of an aggressor cat instead of the newcomer/"victim"), and I don't know, she might even be happy to be in a Jack-Free Zone for the night. But it breaks my heart for it to have come to this. And since I don't have adequate space for a full reintroduction yet, it's the best I can come up with - my other two options are (1) get fined for a noise violation, or (2) let Sophie continue to attack Jack when I lie down to sleep.

I brought Jack into our lives in good faith, for Sophie's sake, in the first place. After a seemingly great start, their relationship has gone steadily downhill, and it kills me. They still seem so well-matched; Jack keeps Sophie up and moving and active during their waking hours, and he's a very patient, well-intentioned little guy who still keeps trying to make friends, even when she's being very nasty to him. But I hadn't anticipated such a heated territorial dispute, and I should have. I should never have assumed that I could bring a new animal into a small space that has been 100% Sophie's for her entire life. However well-intentioned my decision to adopt Jack may have been, I truly was not prepared for this.

My family and I have adopted animals my entire life, and while we have never, and would never, rehome an animal once we made the commitment to care for it, this is a conflict on a much larger scale than we've ever experienced, and it's very disheartening. We'll get through it; after all, they do have their good moments, even some very sweet moments. That tells me that they're not just two cats that will never get along, but they need the proper space in which to live peacefully, and I haven't been giving that to them. It will take me time to correct this, though, and I fear for the setbacks that might occur in the meantime.

Sorry for the wall of text...I think I'm writing this as much for myself as anything else. Just feeling down, and like a very "bad cat mom", at the moment, and I guess I needed to vent.
post #2 of 15
It will be interesting to see what others say but I personally don't think you have an issue. My cats chase each other and nip and paw and wrestle....but they also hang out together and sleep and groom. I think as long as Jack isn't exhibiting signs of stress, like hair loss (balding), not eating, using the litter box, hiding, etc. Just let them be. I think if you seperate them you are doing more harm then good. Sounds like Sophie is putting frisky Jack in his place. Not a big deal....no blood right? Honestly, let them just be...
post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fifi1puss View Post
It will be interesting to see what others say but I personally don't think you have an issue. My cats chase each other and nip and paw and wrestle....but they also hang out together and sleep and groom. I think as long as Jack isn't exhibiting signs of stress, like hair loss (balding), not eating, using the litter box, hiding, etc. Just let them be. I think if you seperate them you are doing more harm then good. Sounds like Sophie is putting frisky Jack in his place. Not a big deal....no blood right? Honestly, let them just be...
I'm often torn on that myself, especially during the times that they do get along. But with both of them having to be stuck in the one room with me at "bedtime," she won't let him sleep anywhere...there's nowhere he can go. He'll be lying down, half-asleep, and she's on him. He'll keep trying to move to new places, but because this has been Sophie's area for so long, there's no area that she considers acceptable, so she just keeps at it, until he is running away from her, desperately looking for someplace she'll leave him alone. She will escalate to driving him away from food, water, and the litter box as well. This will keep up until he is whimpering and agitated. I've tried letting them go, but it just keeps going, and escalating, until Sophie's angry, Jack's agitated, and I'm just exhausted.

For the record though, I just wasn't able to bear separating them last night. Instead, I stayed awake until 8am, when some of my family got up and were able to keep an eye on them so they could have the run of the entire upstairs plus most of the downstairs while I caught a few hours of sleep.
post #4 of 15
Well, you can't live like that indefinitely. We all need our sleep. What youneed to do, or at least what I'd do if I was you, is establish some sort of routine for these two cats, of integration and separation. At the times of day when they get along the best, especially during the day, let them mingle, but for their sake and yours, probably separate them by night.

They do need to be able to sort this out and eventually they will. This sort of thing is common for cats to do. They can get pretty rough with each other. I got one who always picks on one of my others. It's routine for them. I solve this by letting my Tory have the bedroom to herself a lot of the time where she can get away from Ace, the top kitty who loves to be a bully at times. For all that though, he has never hurt her.
post #5 of 15
They sound like they are both alphas and nightime brings out that behavior big time. This is their "day" this when they hunt, when they challenge, when they mate- it is all about the night.

How much vertical space do you have? Have you ever seen this website? www.felinefurniture.com He has some amazing condos that are easy to put together, you can move them with one hand and it can help create space where before there was nothing but floor. I would start there.

I am currently testing a new product by ProPet it is a calming collar. All holistic it releases calming pheremones into the air by the cat wearing it, for the cat as well as the other resident cats. It just arrived yesterday, and I have put it on Hurricane Charlie, by alpha and my bully cat. I will let you know if it works.

In the meantime, feliway comfort zone room diffusers are helpful
post #6 of 15
Thats an excellant idea to use the feliway diffuser and make sure you have vertical space. (Totally forgot about this!) If you get a cat tree or some other creative means of creating vertical space like do-it-yourself shelving that can create a "neutral" space that Sophie hasn't yet claimed and can even out the playing field of territory. Not to mention that having multiple levels of height can help them to establish who is alpha. My Fiona gets the top level of all the trees....because she is Queen. The boys are happy to be on the other levels.
post #7 of 15
I read this and thought to myself, "This is normal in my house!" However, we interfere and stop the struggles and they eventually settle down and find a peaceful solution. They don't do it at night, though.
post #8 of 15
Thread Starter 
Truthfully, I'm never really sure if I'm overreacting. I have a VERY hard time seeing an animal in pain, discomfort, or unhappiness - I'm one of those people who can't watch Animal Planet 90% of the time because I'll have hysterics. What inspired my original post (and I don't know if ever even fully described), is that when they're confined, Sophie's posturing is outright aggressive - laid-back ears, all her fur standing on end, etc. She gets pretty rough with him, and he starts whining/crying. So I start feeling like a mean ogre. I've trapped Jack in here with her, with absolutely no escape, and seeing him get more and more desperate to get away...that's the point where I start feeling guilty and writing extremely long, tearful TCS posts at 6am wondering where I went wrong!

I do have a Feliway diffuser going in here, but I just realized today that it's being wasted - the vapor is going straight out the open window just above it. With cool weather coming up, should be able to shut the window without roasting, so that should help.

As far as vertical space - there's lots of furniture of varying heights, which I strategically repositioned awhile back to give Sophie some fun perches. As someone said though, she feels they're all "hers" already.

Since there's no space in here for a cat tree, I still think my best bet is to install that door in the stairwell. I could put up the kitty shelves in here, but if I'm going to do the handy-work, why not just use the manpower to increase their overall space? Plus, once the second bedroom is cleaned out, it will be kitty heaven in there...a nearly-empty room with plenty of space for a cat tree, tunnels, toys, extra litter-box. Best part is that even Sophie has never set foot in there (long story). So it's truly neutral territory.

Since I'm already writing another novel here, I'll also throw in the obvious - that I need to calm myself the heck down because I'm probably making things much worse. I have to admit though, some sleep would really help with that, and it's hard to get any when there are two 9-lb cats having a screeching wrestling match right on your feet!

In any case, things have been relatively calm since I posted this - mainly because poor Sophie has picked up the URI that Jack came home from the shelter with, and it's hitting her hard. She is just congested up to her eyeballs, sneezing yellow mucus all over herself, clearing her throat from the post-nasal drip...poor baby girl is a mess. In her crummy-feeling state, she is actually looking not only to me, but also to Jack (and even the dog!) for comfort. Definitely not the bonding method I'd ever choose for my pets, but it does seem like it's bringing them together in a strange way. [For the record, she was at the vet today, is on two different antibiotics concurrently, and Jack is as well, just to make sure it's out of HIS system.]

I'll keep you guys posted. I hate to always sound like a melodramatic wreck but I love them and want them to be at peace. I'm a cat-introducing newbie...you guys are my best gauge for what is normal!
post #9 of 15
I also experience some terrirotial issues with my two cats. One of the things about territorial issues vs. social status issues is that they are somewhat predictable.

My cats fuss at a certain time and certain place - so just before that time comes along I find that I can engage them in different activities - play, feeding, catnip, affection - anything but what they would be doing (fussing at the back door).

Whether or not you interfere with fights or bullying is a parenting style issues. I personally interfere. If I cannot distract the cats into doing something else I do temporarily banish the bully. I don't allow any disputes in my bedroom or on my bed at all - that is my space and in the end hopefully I am the queen of the house.
post #10 of 15
Something I do is to use a towel to separate my two girls. I also watch them and when I think it's getting a bit too stressful, I'll herd one out of the way.
post #11 of 15
I have 2 litter mate brothers that got into a pretty bad fight almost 4 years ago. Im pretty sure it was the result of redirected aggression, but the flight left them with a very strained relationship.

I immediately separated them. It took a long time to help them establish a relationship again. And there are times now that I can see stress between them and when I do, I separate them until things calm down I see that both of them are calm.

I cannot tell you how many nights I spent going from one bed to another bed because both of them would insistently cry at the door. I would always close the door to the bedroom I was in and leave the other cat the rest of the house.

I used Bach's rescue remedy which helped a lot, I also used Feliway diffusers (you have to make sure that you have enough in the space you are using it in to cover all the square footage. It will tell you on the bottle.

I always associated their meetings with nothing but positive play, positive cuddles or food... always. It was never a neutral meeting ... always something positive.

Eventually, I bought 2 doorway baby gates and installed them one on top of the other, so that they could have more contact with one another.

If you think your cats wouldnt scratch through it, you could place a temporary screen door on a doorway to allow them interaction. (mine would scratch through the screen) You can get them at Lowe's for $20.00

Here's an example http://www.lowes.com/pd_66793-950-21...0screen%20door

I would definitely add another litter box immediately, even if it has to be in the middle of the room. So many cats have squabbles over litter boxes. Cats can be very finicky about their bathroom habits.
In addition, bullying at the litter box can cause the one who is being bullied to hold onto his urine, which can result in infection. So I would add another one as soon as possible.

I would not open a window at all. Cats have been known to fall out. A bird fly by and they want to go after it. I just wouldnt do that.

I wouldnt let them fight either, especially with the female expressing aggression with her posturing. The sooner can you can get them separated and start reintroduction techniques the better. You do not want a permanently damaged relationship. If they continue to fight, that can definitely happen.
Never punish either one of them for the aggression either. They are just reacting from instinct. Just intervene and separate at the first sign... (but preferably separation for now)

One of the most important things that you will have to remember for yourself, is that you have to be very very patient with this process. It will not resolve itself overnight. And you may always have to intervene, but you are aware of their posturing and you will be able to see any stress between them.

Until they can be separated, the healing process between them will not begin. So hopefully you can figure out a way to do that for them.

Dont even worry about overreacting. If your female is posturing like that, she is upset. They are lucky to have someone looking after them like you.

Hopefully they can get their relationship mended soon and peace will be restored for all of you. Good luck
post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 
SO much good advice here, thank you all!! I honestly don't know what I'd do without TCS.

Since I last posted, they have been getting along eerily well. Sophie is now starting to feel a little better on the new antibiotic (although definitely still sick), so I keep waiting for the bickering to start up again, but so far, it hasn't. It's really, really weird. No bedtime battles, and definitely no overt aggression from Soph. Jack has been grooming her a lot, and she just basks in the attention. I'm really relieved and grateful that she's not stressed and aggressive, because she's got a nasty URI and doesn't need that right now. Still, I really just can't fathom that they're suddenly "magically" going to be BFFs, so I'm watching them carefully and preparing to act if it gets nasty again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Traufield View Post
that is my space and in the end hopefully I am the queen of the house.
This is something I really need to keep in mind. I worry so much about dominance issues between the two of them, that I forget about the third party in this power struggle - me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanietx View Post
Something I do is to use a towel to separate my two girls. I also watch them and when I think it's getting a bit too stressful, I'll herd one out of the way.
As soon as I read this, I went and got a towel to keep nearby just in case. A really great idea, instant "barrier" to drop between them, and it would work as a gentle way to "herd" one away from the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pami View Post
Eventually, I bought 2 doorway baby gates and installed them one on top of the other, so that they could have more contact with one another.

If you think your cats wouldnt scratch through it, you could place a temporary screen door on a doorway to allow them interaction. (mine would scratch through the screen) You can get them at Lowe's for $20.00
I'm definitely considering the "double-baby-gate" thing. It's a less expensive option than actually installing a door (which was what I was considering for the stairwell), and totally temporary (in other words, no wrecking my mother's baseboards!). I never thought of a screen door, but it would depend on the screen...I don't know about Sophie, but Jack has some wicked claws and knows how to use 'em.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pami View Post
I would definitely add another litter box immediately, even if it has to be in the middle of the room. So many cats have squabbles over litter boxes. Cats can be very finicky about their bathroom habits.
In addition, bullying at the litter box can cause the one who is being bullied to hold onto his urine, which can result in infection. So I would add another one as soon as possible.
They seem to be okay with the litter boxes at the moment, but I will do this anyway. This is one of the major things that I do NOT want to take chances with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pami View Post
I would not open a window at all. Cats have been known to fall out. A bird fly by and they want to go after it. I just wouldnt do that.
No worries here...I've been very careful about windows ever since Sophie took to climbing the screens as a small kitten! I only open the window a tiny crack, about an inch, inch and a half. Too small for them to get their heads into, but large enough for all the Feliway vapor to float right out. :doh:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pami View Post
You do not want a permanently damaged relationship. If they continue to fight, that can definitely happen.
This is my main worry, and something I will do anything necessary to avoid. I'm letting them interact fully for the moment (always, always supervised - there are benefits to being unemployed and home 24/7!), because it actually seems to be comforting to Sophie, but I will separate them at the first sign of a return to their recent fighting ways.
post #13 of 15
Something else I've done is to remove the kitty doing the harrassing and put her in time out for a few minutes. I have a spare bedroom and that's where she goes. There's a litter box, some toys, and water in there as well as 2 windows, so she's not being stuck in a dark closet or anything. She only stays in there for no more than 5 minutes anyway. While the harrasser is in time out, I love on and play with the one who's being harrassed. I also get her situated in a bed or on the area that was being guarded.

Then, when I let the little terrorist out, I make sure to divert her attention by playing with her or offering her a couple of treats and I make SURE she doesn't go near my other cat. Eventually, they reach a common truce (for a little while anyway) and things are calm.
post #14 of 15
Stephanie, I have been using the towel barrier, it works.

Years ago one of my roomates brought home a kitty (Ms. Rhoda) that had been abandoned by her parents. Kids were throwing rocks at her, so I offered to adopt her. My cat at the time, (Bones) hated her, and they would get into scary cat-fights that would make your hair stand on end.

A friend suggested to spray perfume on my hands and wipe them down, and use perfume all over house. She also suggested to wipe down doors, walls, places that they mark their scent on. The perfume helps to neutralize all the smells/markings of territory.

Well, I tried it and it really helped, as both cats wanted to be Alpha and they were marking their territory and fighting for top-cat. I used some natural perfume from Whole Foods.

One of my friend recently tried it because she was unable to get sleep because her cats were fighting all night.

I think that the feli-way is probably safer, but you might want to think about the perfume, however it seems kinda weird, and maybe not the safest form.
post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsNibbles View Post
I used some natural perfume from Whole Foods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsNibbles View Post
but you might want to think about the perfume, however it seems kinda weird, and maybe not the safest form.
Was it essential oil/aromatherapy oil? I don't know if those can help with this-- but they sure smell great for us humans. However, they can be pricey.
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