Immigration reform - Page 8

Estimates put 1 mile of fencling like the one near San Diego at $14M. That would result in $2.2B though some believe those estimates are low. And that is to just build the fence. There is the expense of maintenance and patrolling.

Where will the money come from? The Tea Party wants to cut government funding more.

Isn't it amazing that it often appears to be many of the same people ranting about high taxes and illegal aliens? I wonder what they'd say to double taxation?
Why More U.S. Expatriates Are Turning In Their Passports

Well, at 60 BILLION dollars PER YEAR in Medicare fraud, I think we could swing it. And it would pay for itself in a year.
Just in the medical field.

So if we can cut the Medicare taxes, we can raise discretionary fund taxes? I doubt the Tea Party would agree to that. These programs are two different areas in the budget. To fund ICE would mean cutting something like Defense, Transportation, Veterans affairs.

How so? The USSR had "secure borders", yet the KGB and the GRU grew into the most ludicrously expensive internal police forces the world has ever seen. And even while they still weren't able to keep up with everyone, their economy practically collapsed under the weight of their security and defense expenditures.

I dont care if anyone calls me dumb for thinking this but I was under the impression that once you turned 18 you HAD to get a state issued ID if you didnt have a drivers license.

I have both and ID and DL and carry my DL in my wallet but in case that ever got stolen I keep my ID in my car along with my registration and insurance card. Maybe its being a little excessive but if you deal with the cops and probation as much as I have youd probably do the same thing.

So, how exactly would this law help defeat drug cartels - especially if their market is made up of US citizens? Or are we saying that all Hispanic-looking people support or have links to drug cartels? Hey, there's still a strong Mafia in this country - let's start checking everyone who looks Italian or has an Italian surname?

Two actual cops have filed suit against the law - why don't they see how helpful it's going to be in making Arizona safe What are they missing?

It's not dumb at all. You don't HAVE too, but there is very little at all that you can do without an ID. It's practically essential to have one to do daily business in the US.

However, you are NOT required to have those ID's on your person, or even within reach, at all times.

Those two officers realize that if you start developing a reputation for interrogating witnesses and victims for immigration status while making "official and investigative" contact with them concerning a crime against them, or near them, that soon they are going to start "not seeing a thing".

And if you have drug cartels operating on the border and in Hispanic areas of Arizona, and have no witnesses willing to risk talking to police, guess what...it's only going to get worse.

Here is a nice video of a High School teacher in California advocating violence, anarchy and Revolution in America. This is what is teaching high school students in California. This is freaking scary.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGqPo...ayer_embedded#!

Viva La Raza!

There is much talk of "code words" in politics in America. So many people see "illegal" as code for "hispanic."

Let's be clear; those code words exist in every aspect of our daily lives. Find someone who supports "La Raza" ("The Race"), and you are probably dealing with a hispanic racist. The motto of the group should be enough to worry us: "Por La Razo Todo, Fuera de La Raza Nada." (For the race, everything; outside the race, nothing.) They deny they use the motto, but it's not hard to find it being used at their rallies, etc. In addition, another code word is "Aztlan." This is the mythical name of the portions of the southwest U.S. that they claim are illegally occupied parts of Mexico.

However, once again, such talk has long been a part of American politics. After all, we DID fight a war with ourselves back in 1861-65 over whether any part of the country could go their own way. Vermont, Texas, and New Hampshire have all made noises about secession in the last 10 years.

But anyone who advocates achieving their political ends through violence needs to be warned that such activities almost always leads to a lessening of their influence, not an increase.

What, you mean like, say, a Social Security Number?

Maybe I'm having a little trouble with which amendment you think gives an American the right not to have to identify himself adequately. And, I think you'll agree, that right does not extend to an alien, legal or otherwise; they are required to carry valid ID and documents and show them on demand.

I'l toss something out that I don't think was mentioned yet. Maybe it's time to reconsider the law that says that anyone born on US soil has the right to be a US citizen. Most countries do NOT use this principle but instead go by the citizenship of the parents.
Personally I would have no problem extending the right of citizenship to babies born to foreigners who are here legally, for example on legal work permits, working towards citizenship etc. But for anyone born to parents who are both here illegally I don't see why they should be extended the right to US citizenship.

I agree we do need to revisit it. It is going to be a very difficult challenge though since birthright citizenship was based on Supreme Court rulings of the 14th amendment back in 1898. United States v. Wong Kim Ark. Usually, Supreme Court rulings that have been in place that long are considered established law.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/a...Mg4n2yBzWqSPMI

Isn't this wonderful?

Not at all. I'm not aware of a Social Security number being encoded on any of the human body's unique identifiers, but then again, I'm sure when the numbers were first issued, there were some that feared their supposed "significance" in relation to prophecies.


Justice White pretty much covered it in "Terry vs Ohio".

Absolutely. Which brings us right back to, if a US citizen cannot be compelled to present a physical ID, and an illegal claims to be a US citizen, what would cause an officer to "suspect" him to be illegal?

It's always been that way, it's one of the issues I've already said Arizona will have trouble with. Our local judges (when I was still a deputy, anyway), would order the release of illegals on their resolved state or local charges if ICE didn't deliver a Federal detainer within 48 hours. What that news article doesn't address is that he could have stayed in a state facility for however long was needed if he was under Federal detainer. But holding him all that time after his sentence was completed waiting on a detainer was in fact, illegal. And it cost them a lot of money.

If she paid the ticket, she was legally rolled. A state can enforce it's own traffic laws, provided they aren't unreasonable. Speeding is speeding.

But just as an example, I have blue-dot taillights on my hot rod. They're not legal in a lot of states, but since I'm registered in Texas, probably only California has a legal leg to stand on, and even then it's iffy (they don't allow any red lights to show forward of the vehicle, and no blue lights anywhere, since that's how they identify police vehicles). I have tint on my windows, legal level in Texas, and I travel through Arkansas with it regularly, where it's not legal for Arkansas vehicles, but it IS legal for Texas vehicles. Arkansas cars are not required to get an annual inspection, but Texas cars are. Arkansas cars come down here all the time, and aren't bothered.

The ultimate in this example is driving age. When I was younger, it was legal to drive at 14 in Arkansas. With that license, you could drive all the way across the U.S. It's still true that a driver's license in your home state is legal in all 50 states.

Many states have tried this trick with the "gotcha laws," but all of them get struck down if they go above the state's courts. A good example is the radar detector law in VA. They've tried everything, and they've learned the hard way that any violation written on that law will get struck down on appeal.

Arizona's law isn't a "gotcha law," however. It's enforcement of federal law, with the federal law quoted in it. If you're detained by an officer on probable cause, and he believes you may be illegal, he can ask for ID. If you ARE a citizen, but don't have your ID, you may be held until you prove you're legal. If you're not a citizen in that same instance, you won't have legal ID, no matter how long you wait in jail.

This is like insurance and registration laws all over the country. If you get stopped by an officer and you don't have your registration or proof of insurance, your car may very well be impounded. You get your ride home in the taxi or with a relative or whatever, you get your paperwork, and you go back and reclaim your car. You're inconvenienced, but it's your own fault for not having the paperwork required by the law.

The one flaw I see in all this is that AZ can't legally deport any illegals back to their own country, wherever that might be. Other states might want to consider, however, that AZ CAN put them on a bus to CA, AZ, NM, NV, UT, whatever border they want to send them across. Just not the southern border, since the state does not legally control that border. And THAT, when it comes down to it, is what the whole thing is about.

Well, I finally got to read the pdf of Arizona's new law, and to be honest, it creates more questions than answers.

For one, when an arrested illegal immigrant serves the time prescribed as being the punishment for being in the US illegally by Arizona state law; does that mean his debt to society is paid, and he's not illegal anymore? Can he be arrested again on the same charge if he never leaves the state after being released? If Arizona takes him to another state, have they just aided an undocumented alien in illegal interstate travel? Saying, "we'll transfer him/her to the Federal Government" isn't disposing of the charge at state level, which states are required to do with state charges.

Oh, and in this article on the subject, they do finally clarify something that I've been saying for some time;

Yes, I was able to read the one with the issue of profiling clarified. And it looks to me that they're hanging their cops out to dry. A citizen can do all the racial profiling they want, without any penalty whatsoever. They can then call in anything, from "suspicious persons" to a "loud party" to "I think I smell marijuana coming from somewhere". And if the arriving police officers "fail" to "suspect" the person's immigration status (i.e., fail to profile "properly"), then the citizen can sue the individual officers for, in their opinion, not doing their job (proper racial profiling). And the state is off the hook because they gave lip service to "racial profiling is illegal".

I found a news video in two parts that might add to the discussion.
That fence is a joke.
http://www.wsbtv.com/video/23438021/index.html
http://www.wsbtv.com/video/23438712/index.html

It's not a complete joke. It's symbolic. A very expensive symbol, but symbolic none the less.

Until we have a national tamper proof ID card, and until the government is serious about seeking out and prosecuting operators of counterfeit SS cards and other documentation, it IS NOT THE FAULT OF EMPLOYERS that they hire illegals. Our own SS department sees to that by printing SS cards on paper stock that can easily be forged, and their own verification process makes employers jump through hoops.

The difference between immigration now and immigration in the late 19th/early 20th century is that 100 years ago we needed skilled workers to operate the new machines developed during the industrial revolution. We had the technology to mass produce cars, clothing, tools, machines, etc., but we didn't have the workers to fill the employment needs. Because of the potato famine and political unrest in Europe, people were eager to come here, and they were anxious to become American. They eagerly learned English, and often failed to teach their children their native language. They discarded their native traditions, language, and dress and assimilated as quickly as possible into our American way of life.

Obviously that is no longer the case. When we reached a saturation point, we passed immigration laws and set quotas. Now it is much tougher to immigrate legally. But the problem is that we have the laws, but we don't enforce them! We allowed amnesty, and that encouraged more to come illegally, not willing to go though the legal process. We allow document mills to flourish unfettered to aid the illegals. We don't track over-extended visas. We allow voter registration without proof of citizenship. We print voter ballots and drivers license tests in multiple languages (even though our road signs are in English!) In the guise of respecting ethnic diversity, we don't insist that immigrants (legal or not) learn English. Now if you were going to seek citizenship in Germany or Russia or Iran or Greece do you think they would let you vote without proof of citizenship or print the ballot in English to accommodate your ignorance of their native language? And do you think they would let you in without promise of a job or enough money to be self-supporting?

What many people don't realize is that Spanish speaking people from Spain and Mexico have inhabited California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Colorado, Utah for hundreds of years! This region was the New Mexico Territory, belonging to Spain and then Mexico after Mexico became independent of Spain. That is why the Southwest has such a rich Mexican heritage and great Mexican food! Many of Mexican/Spanish descent have lived here for centuries. They are as native or more so than many of us white and black folk! But just because the long-time American's are of Mexican heritage doesn't mean that they endorse illegal immigration either! In fact, those I know are probably more adamant against it because they are legal citizens, and they resent the illegals giving their heritage a bad name. They want Mexico to take care of their own so that the necessity for them to come here is negated.

And these border states, because of their high population of Mexican descendants, many of which are in law enforcement, aren't likely to profile based on appearance! These good people only want to stop the illegal drug and human trafficking that is destroying the economy in our southern states, and largely contributing to the violent crime rate.

I am appalled that Eric Holder wants to sue AZ over their new immigration law, but readily admits he hasn't even read the mere 10 pages of this law!

We have leaned over backwards to make America a welcoming place for new immigrants. And in so-doing, our hospitality has opened the doors to abuse. We need to quit pampering illegals, and send them back. We need to insist on English as a national language, with ballots only printed in ENGLISH!* We need to make it more difficult to register to vote, by showing ID to a PERSON before putting that person on the voter roster. We need to abolish our anchor baby laws. We need to put the National Guard on the border. All our politicians and leaders need to get serious about protecting our country from those who would do us harm, be they illegal immigrants looking for a hand out or potential terrorists intent on killing masses of innocent people to make a political statement.

*I know this may seem like a contradiction since many Hispanics can trace there heritage back to New Mexico Territory historical times, but if they have lived in the USA for more than one generation, there is no excuse for not being fluent in English!

Actually I was in Germany legally for many years. And no they wouldn't let me in without being employed. Heck I even had to pay unemployment insurance despit the fact that they would have kicked me out if I had lost my job for any reason.
But they did allow me to take the drivers test in English while I was there on a temporary visa- at that time you could only drive using your license from your home country for one year, after that you had to get a German drivers license.
I think by the time you make it to being able to vote then it's reasonable to expect that you understand the language well enough to mark a voting ballot properly. Although while I was there, the German state where I was employed actually gave voting rights to non-citizens in local and regional matters.

You're one step ahead of Obama and Holder who admit they haven't read the law!

And if ICE would do the job they are empowered to do, then these questions would be moot.

Here's a very interesting "Didn't know that". There are almost twice as many States passing pro-immigration laws than there are States passing anti-immigration laws. It would seem that the media isn't all that interested though. I guess doing something decent and charitable just isn't newsworthy.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...al-immigration

More on the subject:
From June: America's red-blue divide widens on illegal immigrants