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Immigration reform

post #1 of 240
4/23/10 at 3:21pm
Thread Starter 
I'm curious about people's thoughts on what appropriate immigration reform means to you. If you've been watching the news, Arizona's governor just signed in a new bill that is creating great controversy across the nation. The sticking point is that it gives law officials the right to stop and question anyone who they suspect as being an illegal alien and those stopped must provide proof that they have the right to be in the country. If they don't have the appropriate paperwork, they can be arrested. Arizona has a high Hispanic population and it's obvious that they are targeting Hispanics (I doubt they expect illegal Germans to cross that border). There is already discussion that it will be judged to be unconstitutional when the first racial profiling harassment case is taken to court. But on the flip side, there have been recent cases of serious crimes that were committed by people that have crossed the border illegally. So something must be done.

I personally think that this is not the right approach as it raises some serious questions in my mind.

First of all, if Arizona cracks down on illegals coming over their boarder, what happens to the states that are also adjacent to Mexico? Will they take an influx of illegal aliens? Will this shift the burden to other states?

What happened to Homeland Security? Didn't we put a lot of money into an agency that was supposed to protect our borders?

Doesn't this put an extra burden on the tax payers in Arizona to have to house all of the people they are arresting?

Doesn't this put the police in harms way? What happens if they raid a house where they think there are suspects and a fight ensues?

Is there anything about the bill that really strengthens the border? Or are we policing after the fact?

If you look at our country, with the exception of native Americans, all of our families immigrated to this country at one time or the other (and you can argue that native Americans migrated here thousands of years ago). Do we simply close our borders to all future immigration or do we re-examine our policies on accepting immigrants into our country?

I'm curious about thoughts on this topic.
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post #2 of 240
4/23/10 at 4:59pm
You know - I'm so tired of the "politically correct" crap and the "profiling" crap

Since its obvious that 99.9% of the illegals in Arizona would be coming from Mexico, then you can't cry "profiling" - you know very well that they will be checking Hispanic and Mexicans more closer.

The heck with profiling - how ELSE can you possibly figure out who is illegal if you don't do some sort of profiling? Unless something like this is done - your hands are tied and nothing ever will be accomplished!
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post #3 of 240
4/23/10 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
You know - I'm so tired of the "politically correct" crap and the "profiling" crap

Since its obvious that 99.9% of the illegals in Arizona would be coming from Mexico, then you can't cry "profiling" - you know very well that they will be checking Hispanic and Mexicans more closer.

The heck with profiling - how ELSE can you possibly figure out who is illegal if you don't do some sort of profiling? Unless something like this is done - your hands are tied and nothing ever will be accomplished!
It is all fine and dandy as long as you are blonde and blue eyed, and unmistakeably American... I have been profiled, in the airport, and LUCKILY I had my passport with me. But, I ask you, what if I hadn't? I AM a citizen... I was the ONLY one who was asked to step aside by the immigration officer and show proof of status, even though I am a citizen, not traveling outside of the US, not Mexican, and not doing anything wrong.... Besides the fact that I was highly offended by it,how am I supposed to guess that this is going to happen? Now I need to just walk around with my passport? Why me, and not you? Because of my dark hair, and a bit darker skin?
So, I am sorry, but NO - it is not like that.... No to "the heck with profiling". That is very easy to say when is done to others.
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post #4 of 240
4/23/10 at 5:55pm
You have your driver's license - you don't need to carry a passport. The ones complaining about profiling offer NO problem-solving - all you do is complain you are being picked on and profiled.

So WHAT is your suggestion as to how to determine illegal aliens in the country????
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post #5 of 240
4/23/10 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post

I personally think that this is not the right approach as it raises some serious questions in my mind.
I agree with you.
I don't think we need to be harassing and arresting people who have entered the US illegally. I think the only fair way to approach the illegal immigration problem is to crack down on employers who are hiring illegal aliens. With no job opportunities, they will eventually stop coming here, if we really wanted them to. It's hypocritical of us to say "you can be arrested if you enter the US illegally, but we'll give you a job if you don't get caught"
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post #6 of 240
4/23/10 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post
It is all fine and dandy as long as you are blonde and blue eyed, and unmistakeably American... I have been profiled, in the airport, and LUCKILY I had my passport with me. But, I ask you, what if I hadn't? I AM a citizen... I was the ONLY one who was asked to step aside by the immigration officer and show proof of status, even though I am a citizen, not traveling outside of the US, not Mexican, and not doing anything wrong.... Besides the fact that I was highly offended by it,how am I supposed to guess that this is going to happen? Now I need to just walk around with my passport? Why me, and not you? Because of my dark hair, and a bit darker skin?
So, I am sorry, but NO - it is not like that.... No to "the heck with profiling". That is very easy to say when is done to others.
Exactly, those who say they don't mind being asked for proof of citizenship are the ones who will never get asked anyway.
Let me tell you, I mind it!! I don't want to be required to show proof that I'm legally allowed to take a walk at a park when I'm in my own country.... We all know when a cop approaches you and asks you for an ID, you automatically think "what am I doing wrong" ...So if you're a certain race then it's automatically assumed that you might be doing something wrong?? Since when is that OK in our country, as far as I know NOT since segregation ended.
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post #7 of 240
4/23/10 at 6:23pm
Again - you complain but offer no solution to the problem - so what is the solution?
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post #8 of 240
4/23/10 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Again - you complain but offer no solution to the problem - so what is the solution?
I said what the solution was- to make it illegal for employers to hire illegals and come up with some very serious consequences for any employer who does hire illegals.
That way illegals won't have jobs and will got back.
We can't just keep giving them work opportunities but then be willing to arrest them. It's wrong.
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post #9 of 240
4/23/10 at 6:47pm
So, are they going to ask proof of citizenship of every single person they stop for every single suspicion of crime - or just the brown ones? If it's every single person, well, at least it's equal handed. But, truly, people don't see anything a little weird here?

And, yeah, what about all the employers of the illegal folks? Does Rush Limbaugh come down on them much?
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post #10 of 240
4/23/10 at 6:53pm
Isn't it already illegal for businesses to hire illegals? I don't know if there are any easy answers as to what to do about illegals. I do wonder how much of the problem lies in being able to enforce the current laws on the books and if the enforcement capacity (ie: manpower) is there to do that.
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post #11 of 240
4/23/10 at 7:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essayons89 View Post
Isn't it already illegal for businesses to hire illegals? I don't know if there are any easy answers as to what to do about illegals. I do wonder how much of the problem lies in being able to enforce the current laws on the books and if the enforcement capacity (ie: manpower) is there to do that.
I don't think it's illegal, but it is definitely against the DOL's rules...There aren't any serious consequences though. And it's rarely enforced. I've worked with so many illegals when I had part time jobs at restaurants. Maybe it's a little different now due to the economic crisis... I think I saw somewhere that the numbers of illegal aliens have been dropping since the recession.
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post #12 of 240
4/23/10 at 7:04pm
Of course its illegal to hire them - and there are fines for doing so - its already on the books - and once in awhile they will do "raids" on businesses known to hire.

Obviously that solution really is not working is it? Got any other suggestions other then profiling to find them?
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post #13 of 240
4/23/10 at 7:42pm
As the state of Arizona cannot legally deport anyone, the whole thing strikes me as political grandstanding, using people as pawns.
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post #14 of 240
4/23/10 at 8:08pm
I'm really tired of being "Pc" also. I am watching this country go straight down the tubes and I'm tired of my tax dollars going to to wages, and retirements of politicians, and I'm really tired of paying for people who are here illegally. I have been paying taxes for years and have been screwed over by our system many times over and I'm fed up. I wish i could be more positive on things but all this is escalating into a big fat mess. I wouldn't trust one more promise from a politician for the rest of my life. They all need to get out of office and lose all their benefits like many of the people of this country who have lost their jobs and homes. They can fend for themselves on the unemployment line. They are not special people.
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post #15 of 240
4/23/10 at 9:26pm
The media is putting it out there like the authorities in Arizona will be stopping hispanics and asking for I.D. with no probable cause. That isn't the truth though.

Saw a Arizona sheriff on Fox last night and he said they would NOT be stopping people unless they had probable cause. If that is, indeed, true, I have no problem with it. BUT, if they are just stopping Hispanics with NO probable cause, IMO, that is unconstitutional.

I see the Governor of Arizona just signed the Bill today so we will see real soon.

As far as immigration, I'm in favor of immigration reform of some kind. But all criminals should be deported. Not talking about parking tickets, talking about criminals.

Arizona is having terrible problems with the drug cartels on the border. I think that rancher that was just murdered was the last straw for them.
The kidnappings in Phoenix alone in the last year have been terrible.
The criminal element coming up here from Mexico have got to be stopped.

I blame employers, the government who has turned a blind eye for years, and we as Americans that have reaped the benefits of the low cost labor.

I have a lawn service that comes once a week, they mow, fertilize, trim bushes, check and adjust the sprinkler system, all for $50.00 a month.
Do the math. You can imagine what it would cost if the guys doing it had lighter skin.

The people that have been here for years, working, raising families and paying taxes should be given a path to citizenship IMO.

Who of us can say we wouldn't cross an invisible boundary to feed our family?

Now, the drug cartels and drug trade are a different story.
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post #16 of 240
4/23/10 at 10:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
You have your driver's license - you don't need to carry a passport.
Actually, no. Since several states issue driver's licenses without proof of citizenship, licenses from those states are not proof of identity. I think there are only 7 states that issue the newest more secure DL's, and for those states, a license IS proof of identity.

I have very mixed feelings about this whole issue. We live in Texas, and I go to Laredo regularly. I've seen people walking 600 miles to get a job in the U.S. that you can't get an American to fill out an application for. But if those lower-wage workers weren't available, would the wages be high enough to attract Americans? And a program on NPR this week mentioned that the illegals only get those low-wage under-the-table jobs to start; most of them actually are competing with Americans for good-paying jobs by the time they've been here a couple of years.

Keep in mind that I grew up in the slums, housing projects, and barrios in Denver. Most of my childhood friends were Hispanic, and Roberto Romero was my best friend for a number of years. The worst beating I ever took was from the next-door girl whose last name was Castro; her two brothers held me down while she kicked me all over!

What we severely need is secure ID for everyone, and a policy that allows for immigration when we need employees and for emmigration when we don't. This is how Switzerland, for example, controls unemployment.
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post #17 of 240
4/23/10 at 10:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
I said what the solution was- to make it illegal for employers to hire illegals and come up with some very serious consequences for any employer who does hire illegals.
That way illegals won't have jobs and will got back.
We can't just keep giving them work opportunities but then be willing to arrest them. It's wrong.
It's already illegal. And it was being enforced, until the current administration stopped the raids. And two higher-ups at Tyson just barely missed going for jail just for being recorded discussing hiring illegals.

I think you're on the right track, but when an employer is caught hiring illegals, what do you do to them, and what do you do with the illegal workers?

It's been said that this is one subject on which you can bet the politicians on both sides will sell America down the river. The Republican supporters want the cheap labor, and the Democrat supporters want cheap voters.

And just as a side note, the sheriff could probably do some checking around the truck stops out at Casa Grande and find plenty of illegal eastern Europeans.
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post #18 of 240
4/24/10 at 12:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
You have your driver's license - you don't need to carry a passport. The ones complaining about profiling offer NO problem-solving - all you do is complain you are being picked on and profiled.

So WHAT is your suggestion as to how to determine illegal aliens in the country????
First of all, About the ID - wrong. ID is one thing proof of Citizenship is another entirely different thing. An ID will not prove your citizenship or residency status - a Green Card or Passport will. I was specifically asked to show my Green Card or Passport. So - you are wrong, I HAD to be carrying one of those. Again I ask: what if I didn't have it on me?

Second, "The ones complaining about profiling" ... "all you do is complain you are about being picked on" FTR - I am not one to complain about this and in fact I never had before. However on this case, I simply had to, after a comment like the following, saying "to the heck with profiling" and being politically correct. But you will never understand this, until you are profiled... and since I am pretty sure this will never happen...

About offering a solution: Really... I know a reform of some kind is in order... But I am a mere TCS member. I am no historian, no Politician, no specialist in the matter... and neither are any of us. So yes, while I might have an opinion, I will not going to sit here and pretend to you that I have a solution, when people who have been studying this matter for decades don't.
What I know is that profiling isn't. IMO is unconstitutional, and against everything that America stands for.
A few points come to mind: I would treat the criminals like criminals (I am talking about the ones committing an actual crime, not the "crime" of being here illegally) They are the biggest problem, IMO. Maybe offer an ID system so you know where everybody is.
Also know, that immigration as it is will not end... so people need to calm down a bit... Try to deal with a situation that is centuries old and have not destroyed the county. The word should be "manage" and not "exterminate".
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post #19 of 240
4/24/10 at 1:49am
Well, just as an annoying little point, those who cross the border illegally HAVE knowingly committed a crime, one which can be punished by being forcibly ejected from the country.

Mexico does that to those crossing into their country without permission (usually from their southern borders). They also restrict Americans on what they can own there (very complicated land ownership laws), restrict Americans from driving there (almost impossible to get a Mexican driver's license), and don't provide Americans with free medical care. And you probably wouldn't want the care they gave, anyway.

Maybe we should just insist on reciprocal treatment in Mexico? If so, no non-citizen could own a home in El Paso, Laredo, Brownsville, San Diego, Calexico, Miami, Tampa, New York City, Boston, Brownsville, Galveston, etc. (Non-Mexicans cannot own property within 50 miles of the border or 50 miles of the ocean front.)
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post #20 of 240
4/24/10 at 6:19am
Thread Starter 
Carolina - I heard a clarification last night. If you are a U.S. citizen and were pulled over for questioning but you failed to have the appropriate paperwork with you, you, as a U.S. citizen can be jailed for up to 6 months and have a $5,000 fine. You don't want to be brown skinned in Arizona for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
We live in Texas, and I go to Laredo regularly. I've seen people walking 600 miles to get a job in the U.S. that you can't get an American to fill out an application for. But if those lower-wage workers weren't available, would the wages be high enough to attract Americans?
I lived outside of Houston for a while. Shortly after we bought our house, I was mowing our lawn one afternoon when a neighbor came up to me and suggested that "I get a Mexican" to do the lawn. The going rate was $25 a day at that time for an illegal immigrant. So businesses are not the only ones that are perpetuating the problem of cheap labor. Everyone who lives in border states knows where to get their cheap gardeners. Citizens would never touch the job at that price and people would be hard pressed to pay more for that service.

I really don't think that just cracking down on immigrants who are here illegally will solve the problem. If there is nothing to stem the flow into our country, the problem is going to remain. What is Homeland Security doing these days?

I heard discussion last night about implementing a structured, positive path for people to obtain citizenship - one that will make them accountable for learning our language, education about our country, etc. I just keep thinking about the fact that most of our families did immigrate to our country at one point or another, and would we even exist had our ancestors been turned away?
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post #21 of 240
4/24/10 at 6:46am
Our language? La esta lengua o la otra lengua?
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post #22 of 240
4/24/10 at 6:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
I don't think we need to be harassing and arresting people who have entered the US illegally. I think the only fair way to approach the illegal immigration problem is to crack down on employers who are hiring illegal aliens. With no job opportunities, they will eventually stop coming here, if we really wanted them to. It's hypocritical of us to say "you can be arrested if you enter the US illegally, but we'll give you a job if you don't get caught"
I totally agree with you on this. Why is it nothing is ever mentioned about the companies hiring illegals and paying them sub-standard wages, often "under the table." I was in the bank not long ago behind a man getting a huge check cashed so he could, as he admitted, pay his workers. In the parking lot was a truck full of hispanics.

I don't have a problem with the people coming into this country illegally. From what I can see, the vast majority of them are decent, hard working people who are just trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. Which one of us wouldn't do the same?

What I do have a huge problem with are the employers who hire them at the expense of citizens and those people who have immigrated the correct way. As ut0pia pointed out, if the jobs dry up, so will the illegals.

As for this law in Arizona - We almost moved to Arizona several years ago. Thank God we didn't. Not because I fall into any group that might be "profiled," but because I don't want to live in a place where you would have to carry a passport (which I don't have) to prove you're a citizen. Talk about taking away our rights and freedoms.
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post #23 of 240
4/24/10 at 6:49am
Didn't they say you had to have an Arizona driver's license to prove legal status? Guess that lets out my Illinois license - oops, I'm ok, I'm very fair skinned. Of course, many illegals from Eastern Europe running around, and for all they'd know, I could be a card-carrying member of a militant faction of the IRA, but, hey, not brown.

Actually now I'm wondering about business consequences if Arizona is not incredibly even-handed about enforcement...for example, how many of the major league baseball clubs will be out of there, and I was under the impression spring training was a big economic driver. Heck, the Cubs, the big draw from what I've read, is already looking at Florida - bet this may become a factor in their plans. And, of course, there's the convention business, as well as any Fortune 500 companies becoming leery of being out there.

I agree that between the desire for cheap prices and cheap labor, Americans say one thing, but really want something else.

Hmm, just thinking - isn't Jeb Bush's wife Latina? Guess she better not be visiting Arizona unless she's with the family and the Secret Service is running interference. I mean, she might run a red light, and then, how embarrassing to have only a Florida license.
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post #24 of 240
4/24/10 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
Everyone who lives in border states knows where to get their cheap gardeners. Citizens would never touch the job at that price and people would be hard pressed to pay more for that service.
Really? I know plenty of kids who would mow lawns, and probably for less than the Mexicans do it for. That's what we did when I was growing up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
I really don't think that just cracking down on immigrants who are here illegally will solve the problem. If there is nothing to stem the flow into our country, the problem is going to remain. What is Homeland Security doing these days?
We need better border control, but, as others have said, we need to cut off the magnet that draws them in, which is jobs. That, and the "automatic" citizenship for children born here, thus creating the problem of "anchor babies." Oh, and free medical care (Ask anyone in a border town about this problem. Heck, ask Parkland Hospital, in Dallas.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
I heard discussion last night about implementing a structured, positive path for people to obtain citizenship - one that will make them accountable for learning our language, education about our country, etc. I just keep thinking about the fact that most of our families did immigrate to our country at one point or another, and would we even exist had our ancestors been turned away?
Actually, most aren't looking for citizenship. They're looking for a job, and most would happily go home if they could make as good a living there.

Oklahoma passed a strict law similar to this a couple of years ago. It was extremely successful. However, the main aspect of it was prohibiting the hiring of illegals, with stiff fines.
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post #25 of 240
4/24/10 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
Carolina - I heard a clarification last night. If you are a U.S. citizen and were pulled over for questioning but you failed to have the appropriate paperwork with you, you, as a U.S. citizen can be jailed for up to 6 months and have a $5,000 fine. You don't want to be brown skinned in Arizona for a while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty8723 View Post
As for this law in Arizona - We almost moved to Arizona several years ago. Thank God we didn't. Not because I fall into any group that might be "profiled," but because I don't want to live in a place where you would have to carry a passport (which I don't have) to prove you're a citizen. Talk about taking away our rights and freedoms.
Seriously disgusting IMO, what a shame that this is happening in America...
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post #26 of 240
4/24/10 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
I agree with you.
I don't think we need to be harassing and arresting people who have entered the US illegally.
This just struck me as funny. So, someone who did something illegal shouldn't be arrested, or at least investigated. Hmmmm....interesting concept.

But, I do agree with the harassing part. No one should be detained just because of the color of their skin, clothes they wear, eye color, hair color or nail polish color for that matter. In West Virginia we don't have many, if any, illegals (who would want to immigrate to West Virginia? ) but we do have social profiling of "trouble makers" and it's not fair. You know, someone is dressed a certain way and he is automatically trouble and is going to do something wrong even if all he is doing is stopping by a store to buy a loaf of bread.

I don't think it's right to stop someone on the street just because they "might" be in the country illegal. I DO think it is fine to ask for proof of citizenship if they have been caught and if they can't provide it (in say 24 hours) then "hasta la vista". I also think they should have to prove citizenship before receiving welfare, food stamps or health assistance (except for emergencies).

The OP brought up the fact that most of us are decendants from immigrants. True. But MY ancestors came in, applied for citizenship, learned the language, PAID TAXES and worked their butts off. How many illegals now have applied for citizenship?
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post #27 of 240
4/24/10 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
This just struck me as funny. So, someone who did something illegal shouldn't be arrested, or at least investigated. Hmmmm....interesting concept.
Deported, yes, but to me entering the US illegally is an entirely different category of crimes, there's nothing morally wrong about it, illegal immigrants haven't hurt anyone directly, they're just trying to survive .if you ask some of them they will tell you they will gladly pay taxes if they had the option of becoming citizens and had been allowed to safely live here without the fear of deportation, but that's just not an option for them. So I really don't think we need to arrest them, just warn them that if they don't leave in a certain period of time they will be forced to, and if they don't leave then we should deport them...I think that's what we already do, with the exception of this new law in Arizona.
Also, I think in the past it was easier for immigrants to become legal once they get here. Now unless you're already legal, have a green card for 5 years, you can't be eligible for citizenship, even if you've lived here 20 or 30 years...
I know some people who are illegal and apply for a green card every single year since they've been here, and they've been here 10 years, and still haven't been approved.
But that's someone who came here with a tourist visa and never left, and if that's the case he is allowed to apply for a green card and if a green card isn't granted, he still gets the right to work here for up to 1 year, when he can apply again and again...
For people who haven't come here with a visa but just crossed the border, even that is not an option.
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post #28 of 240
4/24/10 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
The OP brought up the fact that most of us are decendants from immigrants. True. But MY ancestors came in, applied for citizenship, learned the language, PAID TAXES and worked their butts off. How many illegals now have applied for citizenship?
I am sorry, but the law have changed SO much since then that you can not compare those times with today.
Illegal immigrants can not apply for citizenship, unless they entered the country legally, or get married with a US citizen, and after years of green card. So, there is no option for them as there was in the times of your ancestors.
They would very very gladly pay taxes too... They only don't pay, because they don't have a way to get a Social Security, as you need to have either a green Card or be a Citizen to get it - again NOT their choice. Having that Social Security, paying Taxes, would mean they would have benefits, health Insurance, etc, which they have NONE. I bet they would love to have that too.
And about working their butts off... These people DO WORK their butts off. They work like not many of us would. I have seen so many of them work from 5-6 am, until midnight... Work several jobs, shifts and weekends... and that was not the exception - that was more the rule. They work for less money, for less rights, with no benefits... They are doing what they can to support their families.
IMO the only difference in between your ancestors and them, are the current laws and the immigration opportunities, which these people have NONE.
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post #29 of 240
4/24/10 at 10:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
The OP brought up the fact that most of us are decendants from immigrants. True. But MY ancestors came in, applied for citizenship, learned the language, PAID TAXES and worked their butts off. How many illegals now have applied for citizenship?
And I think that's where part of the problem lies. It's easier to cross the border and find a job than it is to go thru the application process.

The thought of arresting people who hire illegal immigrants is an interesting concept. If that happened, entire neighborhoods would be emptied in cities like Houston, as the majority of the well-off home owners hire these people. I was actually the only person in my entire subdivision that did not employ illegal immigrants when I lived there. And Mike - none of the kids in the area would have taken these jobs at the wages being paid. We went down that path.
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post #30 of 240
4/24/10 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Deported, yes, but to me entering the US illegally is an entirely different category of crimes, there's nothing morally wrong about it, illegal immigrants haven't hurt anyone directly, they're just trying to survive .if you ask some of them they will tell you they will gladly pay taxes if they had the option of becoming citizens and had been allowed to safely live here without the fear of deportation, but that's just not an option for them. So I really don't think we need to arrest them, just warn them that if they don't leave in a certain period of time they will be forced to, and if they don't leave then we should deport them...I think that's what we already do, with the exception of this new law in Arizona.
Also, I think in the past it was easier for immigrants to become legal once they get here. Now unless you're already legal, have a green card for 5 years, you can't be eligible for citizenship, even if you've lived here 20 or 30 years...
I know some people who are illegal and apply for a green card every single year since they've been here, and they've been here 10 years, and still haven't been approved.
But that's someone who came here with a tourist visa and never left, and if that's the case he is allowed to apply for a green card and if a green card isn't granted, he still gets the right to work here for up to 1 year, when he can apply again and again...
For people who haven't come here with a visa but just crossed the border, even that is not an option.
First you have to define your meaning of "morally wrong". From a legal stand point, I think this falls under breaking and entering (since most of them sneak in) or at the very least, trespassing. Illegal is illegal. I'm not even going to go into the religious morals because that will open a whole new can of worms.

Of course it is harder to get a green card or citizenship in the US now...we have too many people as it is and it's putting a burden on society. If someone crossed the boarder without permission why should they be allowed to stay even for a period of time? This is what I don't understand. Honestly.

Other countries have very strict rules about who can move and work there and if someone is caught they are immediately deported. I think a lot of things have to be changed, including hiring of illegals. But, IMO, the US is not the babysitter for the entire world.
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