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Do as I say, not as I do

post #1 of 45
4/5/10 at 5:11am
Thread Starter 
It's amazing just how fast a Catholic Bishop will call police when they feel the least bit threatened, but is part of a culture that excommunicates and deems "unfaithful" anyone that calls the police on them for condoning raping children.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...BKnLwD9ESBEVG3
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post #2 of 45
4/5/10 at 5:25am
Molesting children is wrong no matter what - doesn't matter if you are religious or not. And anyone that hides or condones and covers up those actions SHOULD be held accountable.

IMO its worse when a "religious" person does this as they KNOW its 100% wrong in what they are doing and those that are not religious will be the first ones to point out them being hypocrites - and justified in doing so.

God will punish those that break his rules, but he also expects us to hold the person accountable too. A person that molests a child (or anyone else) doesn't care about the victim - they care about their selfish and sick "needs".
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post #3 of 45
4/5/10 at 5:50am
So this Bishop, who you have no proof of having known about any sexual abuse that he ignored, and in fact he has suspended priests for abuse, has no right to call the police to remove someone who attacked him?
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post #4 of 45
4/5/10 at 5:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by icklemiss21 View Post
So this Bishop, who you have no proof of having known about any sexual abuse that he ignored, and in fact he has suspended priests for abuse, has no right to call the police to remove someone who attacked him?
He was subdued and harmless...the church had handled it, right? So, by their own often repeated standard, no, he doesn't.
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post #5 of 45
4/5/10 at 6:01am
But not that particular bishop's standard...
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post #6 of 45
4/5/10 at 6:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by icklemiss21 View Post
But not that particular bishop's standard...
Then he is a hypocrite, and a coward. He wears the frock of an organization whose standards he won't uphold.
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post #7 of 45
4/5/10 at 7:16am
I'm guessing this is right in there with anti-gun legislators who end up shooting someone, right?

Or tree-huggers who fly private jets?

Or preachers who enrich themselves?

Or "advocates for the poor" who live in a mansion, surrounded by poverty?

Or gay homophobes?

Or drug-addicted anti-drug activists?

Or violent peaceniks?

(Names available on request.)

In other words, very few people see their own hypocrisy, only others'.
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post #8 of 45
4/5/10 at 7:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Then he is a hypocrite, and a coward. He wears the frock of an organization whose standards he won't uphold.
Ah, but Mike, I personally think you'll find more hypocrites in organized religion than anywhere else. I'm sure you've heard the expression "holier than thou" . . . None of it surprises me in the least.
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post #9 of 45
4/5/10 at 9:26am
Thread Starter 
I was actually leaving this one alone, till yesterday that is. That's when I read the story of a bishop at the Vatican referring to the heart-breaking (and completely UNDISPUTED case) of rape and abuse of over 200 deaf boys as "petty gossip", and the cries of those victims for justice as "unfair attacks". If they want to see it as "unfair attacks", then more power to them. The very same kind of "unfair attacks" brought down Al Capone and forever stunted the Cosa Nostra and Camorra, and it will work on this criminal organization just as well.

This isn't, IMO, a failing of religion, it's a criminal failing of bureaucracy. Silence is, after all, the voice of consent. These criminal priests and bishops practiced their "trade" completely at will, knowing that they would simply be moved to greener pastures if things got too heated.

I can see the logic behind the Vatican's anti-abortion stance now...it keeps their "stables" full.
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post #10 of 45
4/5/10 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
Ah, but Mike, I personally think you'll find more hypocrites in organized religion than anywhere else. I'm sure you've heard the expression "holier than thou" . . . None of it surprises me in the least.
Sorry, but that's just your bias. I don't know how anyone could see Ted Kennedy or John Edwards and think it gets any worse in any religious group.

Hypocrisy is part of the human condition. No one lives completely by the standards they say they believe in. It's no worse, and no better, in any group anywhere.
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post #11 of 45
4/5/10 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
I'm guessing this is right in there with anti-gun legislators who end up shooting someone, right?

Or tree-huggers who fly private jets?

Or preachers who enrich themselves?

Or "advocates for the poor" who live in a mansion, surrounded by poverty?

Or gay homophobes?

Or drug-addicted anti-drug activists?

Or violent peaceniks?

(Names available on request.)

In other words, very few people see their own hypocrisy, only others'.
The bishop didn't just have a cookie during lent....
It's much deeper than any of these things IMO
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post #12 of 45
4/5/10 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
I was actually leaving this one alone, till yesterday that is. That's when I read the story of a bishop at the Vatican referring to the heart-breaking (and completely UNDISPUTED case) of rape and abuse of over 200 deaf boys as "petty gossip", and the cries of those victims for justice as "unfair attacks". If they want to see it as "unfair attacks", then more power to them. The very same kind of "unfair attacks" brought down Al Capone and forever stunted the Cosa Nostra and Camorra, and it will work on this criminal organization just as well.

This isn't, IMO, a failing of religion, it's a criminal failing of bureaucracy. Silence is, after all, the voice of consent. These criminal priests and bishops practiced their "trade" completely at will, knowing that they would simply be moved to greener pastures if things got too heated.

I can see the logic behind the Vatican's anti-abortion stance now...it keeps their "stables" full.
How about equating criticism of the pope to anti-Semitism? That left me speechless.
German Jews slam Vatican priest's anti-Semitism remarks


Quote:
Father Raniero Cantalamessa used his Good Friday homily to read out a letter from a "Jewish friend" who likened the criticism of the pope and the Catholic Church over child abuse to "the most shameful aspects of anti-Semitism."

Stephan Kramer, Secretary General of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, said the comments were "impertinent and an insult to the victims of sexual abuse as well as victims of the Holocaust."

Kramer added that the Vatican "is falling back upon the regular methods it has used over the decades to suppress and hide any affairs which compromise" the Catholic Church.
Fresh criticism of Vatican clouds Easter weekend


Quote:
The Vatican on Saturday defended the pope's personal preacher over remarks that likened attacks on the pontiff over paedophile priests to anti-Semitism, as the new row marred Easter weekend. Jewish groups and those representing victims of abuse by Roman Catholic priests condemned Father Raniero Cantalamessa for quoting the comments, which he said were made in a letter from a Jewish friend, in his Good Friday sermon.
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post #13 of 45
4/5/10 at 3:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
How about equating criticism of the pope to anti-Semitism? That left me speechless.
German Jews slam Vatican priest's anti-Semitism remarks
I'd not seen that one yet. So, they feel that their being called to task for shielding and enabling criminals equates to the attempted systematic destruction of an entire ethnic group.
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post #14 of 45
4/5/10 at 4:13pm
These perverts are everywhere, the Boy Scouts the Priesthood, it makes me want to vomit.
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post #15 of 45
4/5/10 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
Sorry, but that's just your bias. I don't know how anyone could see Ted Kennedy or John Edwards and think it gets any worse in any religious group.

Hypocrisy is part of the human condition. No one lives completely by the standards they say they believe in. It's no worse, and no better, in any group anywhere.
Precisely why I said it was my own personal opinion (or if you prefer the term "bias") - just as you have your "bias" on Ted Kennedy and John Edwards- it differs from mine but we are both entitled to them.
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post #16 of 45
4/5/10 at 6:52pm
Off topic

but the title is what my Mother always said to me ....
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post #17 of 45
4/6/10 at 8:13am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
These perverts are everywhere, the Boy Scouts the Priesthood, it makes me want to vomit.
They ARE everywhere...but the real issue here is the fact they have been shielded, hidden, practically condoned, and snatched away from the jurisdiction of civil authorities by the very organizations that are supposed to be the very cradle of safety and guidance to the children.

And in spite of all the lip-service, blaming the children and their parents, and crying "oh, poor us; we're being persecuted"...they're STILL doing it!
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post #18 of 45
4/6/10 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
They ARE everywhere...but the real issue here is the fact they have been shielded, hidden, practically condoned, and snatched away from the jurisdiction of civil authorities
Ah, you mean like Ted Kennedy was shielded from prosecution, etc? Or the way he cheated on his wife?

I wouldn't have any fear letting my kids join the Boy Scouts. But I WOULD talk at some length with the leaders.

By the way, my wife was in the Girl Scouts...and at least one year of it, her troop leader was John Kerry's mother.
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post #19 of 45
4/6/10 at 1:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
Ah, you mean like Ted Kennedy was shielded from prosecution, etc? Or the way he cheated on his wife?

I wouldn't have any fear letting my kids join the Boy Scouts. But I WOULD talk at some length with the leaders.

By the way, my wife was in the Girl Scouts...and at least one year of it, her troop leader was John Kerry's mother.
How, exactly, do US politicians figure into this at all? Are you suggesting that because politicians do bad, stupid or illegal things, that it's therefore acceptable for people in positions of power to rape children and hold themselves above the law?
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post #20 of 45
4/6/10 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
How, exactly, do US politicians figure into this at all? Are you suggesting that because politicians do bad, stupid or illegal things, that it's therefore acceptable for people in positions of power to rape children and hold themselves above the law?
I think the point was that people in general are crappy, not just people who are religious leaders.
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post #21 of 45
4/6/10 at 2:40pm
It may be getting worse:

Quote:
The Vatican heatedly defended Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday, claiming accusations that he helped cover up the actions of pedophile priests are part of an anti-Catholic "hate" campaign targeting the pope for his opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage.

Vatican Radio broadcast comments by two senior cardinals explaining "the motive for these attacks" on the pope and the Vatican newspaper chipped in with spirited comments from another top cardinal.

"The pope defends life and the family, based on marriage between a man and a woman, in a world in which powerful lobbies would like to impose a completely different" agenda, Spanish Cardinal Julian Herranz, head of the disciplinary commission for Holy See officials, said on the radio.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/..._KWXAD9ETOTTO1

Does it not occur to these people that the motives for the attacks are simply moral outrage? Or does this "church" still claim to have a monopoly on morals and thuse the right to be morally outraged?

And yes we all no doubt are hypocrites about something. To me there is a world of difference between say a pulmonary specialist who smokes two packs of cigarettes a day and a man of the cloth who damages young souls.
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post #22 of 45
4/6/10 at 2:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrillblaiddes View Post
I think the point was that people in general are crappy, not just people who are religious leaders.
This is true, but; which of these politicians are spiriting child rapists out of the country while calling their victims haters, gossips, and unfaithful, all the while claiming to be the sole representative of what is supposed to be the ultimate good in the universe?

Which of these politicians are moving child rapists from one problem, and creating another by putting them unannounced among even more innocent children elsewhere, even after having had the children swear an oath of loyalty, while not offering the same to them?

Is John Kerry's mother part of the problem? If so, she needs to be in jail, and scout official that hid her or covered for her abusing children needs to be flogged.

If not, why was she mentioned?
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post #23 of 45
4/6/10 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
How, exactly, do US politicians figure into this at all? Are you suggesting that because politicians do bad, stupid or illegal things, that it's therefore acceptable for people in positions of power to rape children and hold themselves above the law?
My point is that the "Do as I say, not as I do" mentality is everywhere and in everyone, and to assume it is any worse in a religious, fraternal, social, or youth organization is to put the blinders on yourself.
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post #24 of 45
4/6/10 at 3:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
My point is that the "Do as I say, not as I do" mentality is everywhere and in everyone, and to assume it is any worse in a religious, fraternal, social, or youth organization is to put the blinders on yourself.
So everyone rapes children, while telling everyone else not to? Everyone who's doctrine says to forgive calls the police instead, while telling everyone else not to?

Shielding criminals at the institutional level is nothing less than organized crime. How does everyone having the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality on some, often petty level, lessen at all what these monsters are doing?
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post #25 of 45
4/6/10 at 3:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
It may be getting worse:


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/..._KWXAD9ETOTTO1

Does it not occur to these people that the motives for the attacks are simply moral outrage? Or does this "church" still claim to have a monopoly on morals and thuse the right to be morally outraged?

And yes we all no doubt are hypocrites about something. To me there is a world of difference between say a pulmonary specialist who smokes two packs of cigarettes a day and a man of the cloth who damages young souls.
They don't "get it", and with that level of pompous egocentricity, they never will. The entire world can be outraged, and they will simply write it off as "hating Catholics". If they "cannot be held accountable to man's law", then they shouldn't be allowed contact with anyone they may wrong. Send them all back to the Vatican, and seal it. They can call for takeout.

It is not the "few criminal priests" that is the issue. It is the fact that they, as an organization, shielded, hid and condoned them, sacrificing the children of their faithful merely to keep from being "embarrassed".
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post #26 of 45
4/6/10 at 6:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
So everyone rapes children, while telling everyone else not to? Everyone who's doctrine says to forgive calls the police instead, while telling everyone else not to?

Shielding criminals at the institutional level is nothing less than organized crime. How does everyone having the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality on some, often petty level, lessen at all what these monsters are doing?
I agree completely with you. I don't see any correlation between what those priests were doing and covering up (and I'm Catholic) and politicians who are less than honorable in their politics. That's like comparing apples and oranges IMO.
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post #27 of 45
4/7/10 at 7:30am
It's all part of a continuum of dishonesty that is, up to some level tolerated by us. Only when it truly crosses our own line do make any real objection to it.

And my point about Mrs. Kerry was that I know of very few organizations that are not good at heart and want to help people. A few bad apples spoils it for everyone.

By the way, the priest sex thing has been around a long time. One of the first jokes I ever remember hearing was about how "If the priests wore their pants backwards like they do their shirts, there were be fewer orphans."

And that was over 50 years ago.
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post #28 of 45
4/7/10 at 7:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Shielding criminals at the institutional level is nothing less than organized crime. How does everyone having the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality on some, often petty level, lessen at all what these monsters are doing?
You mean, like the Democrats shielded Clinton? Or the way the Republicans are currently shielding Steele?
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post #29 of 45
4/7/10 at 7:43am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
It's all part of a continuum of dishonesty that is, up to some level tolerated by us. Only when it truly crosses our own line do make any real objection to it.

And my point about Mrs. Kerry was that I know of very few organizations that are not good at heart and want to help people. A few bad apples spoils it for everyone.

By the way, the priest sex thing has been around a long time. One of the first jokes I ever remember hearing was about how "If the priests wore their pants backwards like they do their shirts, there were be fewer orphans."

And that was over 50 years ago.
Of course it's been around a long time. With the Church's blessing of silence and protection from civil authorities, what was to stop it?
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post #30 of 45
4/7/10 at 7:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
You mean, like the Democrats shielded Clinton? Or the way the Republicans are currently shielding Steele?
Refresh my memory, I forget...which of those two are accused of raping under aged political party members?
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