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Booboo is confusingly not well

post #1 of 530
Thread Starter 
I am taking this cat to the vet shortly (this am) and will update when I get back. I was wondering if anyone can put these pieces together, because he is confusing me to all grades of crazy!
My now 15 year old neutered & P/U'd male Persian has lost a surprising amount of weight, but we had thought it was from a rotted tooth. He had given up on his dry food and only wanted wet. We feed only feline C/D (Hill's Prescription Diet, per vet instructions because of crystals and blockage, hence the P/U) He has been doing fine on that, until his tooth, which I had extracted. He was on three rounds of antibiotics afterwards because the extraction site was still a little red and there is STILL a white scabby looking thing over the site (Extraction was done 2 months ago)
I am worried it is kidney failure, but he is not vomiting, he is peeing, he is drinking his water but not constantly, or "too much", pretty much the same there. He is not pooping very much but has not eaten very much. At times he will walk a few feet and lay down like he is exhausted, then he will go bounding up the steps like a kitten!
He scratched on his 2x4 (Their scratching post) today with all of the normal energy he usually has. Then he stands around looking as if he'd just gotten back from being put under at the vets, kind of disoriented. He also has a creamy/very light yellow discharge like snot from his eyes. I use a Q-tip at the inner corners and roll the q-tip (Never touching his eyeball) and it comes out just like SNOT. It's very strange. His ears are not hot, his nose is not hot, though he did have the sniffles and sneezed on and off for about 4 days (So did my younger female cat, though).
I am just so confused and will update when I get back from the vet. I've never had to put a pet to sleep and it is extremely terrifying for me.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and/or respond to any of it.
post #2 of 530
i cant offer any advice but just that everything is ok
post #3 of 530
Thread Starter 
Had to leave Booboo at the vet for a few hours. Vet says he is dehydrated, constipated and possibly anemic from possible kidney impairment. He is getting an enema, sub-q fluids and a blood test to see what is going on. I feel like the world's worst furbaby mom ever for not taking him sooner. Vet seemed to be a bit upbeat and told me it was manageable depending on the results, and they would show me how to do sub-q fluids at home (so scared of that) and possibly change his food to a kidney diet food. I've read that a lot of cat owners horribly dislike C/D (say it is junk, I don't doubt them there) but he's done so well on it up til now.... goodness IDK I am a wreck already.
Thank you for the vibes Aj, they are so appreciated! Will update when I get all the info back.
post #4 of 530
subq fluids are easy to give at home, once you get over any fear of needles

One of the best things the vet told me about home subq fluids was to imagine the cat was wearing a saddle, as a horse would, and give the fluids anywhere within the saddle area, changing places up each time to minimise scarring

As far as the food being junk, it is, and knowing people with cats on c/d diet, they have typically liked the Purina Prescription verson. But sometimes you cat does need to eat prescription junk because its what works for them, but cats with kidney issues are usually put on K/D
http://www.felinecrf.com/managd.htm has some info on the various kidney diets and there are a lot of people dealing with CRF on here who can give you their opinions on the various foods
post #5 of 530
Prescription food is designed for a reason (my own cat is on Hills CD and, knock wood, it's working). What looks like junk to a layman may (and apparently has been for many cats), life-saving. I'd say work with the vet re diet and truly, best of luck for a good diagnosis and a treatable condition.

I have a friend who maintained her cat on fluids for over two years. She said it got to a routine for both her and her boy.
post #6 of 530
Fingers crossed for him - bloods done on a dehydrated cat wont be accurate though, and if they do show kidney issues, they might be misleading. If he does have true kidney issues and doesn't like the prescription food, let him eat whatever, as not eating will make him poorlier a lot quicker. My CRF cat is currently refusing all prescription food.
post #7 of 530
for you and Booboo. I hope he heals soon!!
post #8 of 530
Hope Boo Boo is going to be okay. Please post an update when you have one.
post #9 of 530
Thread Starter 
Thank you thank you thank you for all of the replies and good vibes. The vet did tell me that because he was dehydrated the numbers of his CBC might be a off a bit. His BUN was greater than 130, and his Creatinine levels were extremely high too. His Blood sugar was up slightly but he said he figures that is because of his dehydration. He went poop, he pee'd when he got home (refuses to pee at the vet, ever) and we have a couple cans of Hill's K/D and he DUG into that ferociously when he got home. He started salivating very heavily and scared me, so I called back and they told me if he's still doing it by 5 he'd have to come back up there. But he seems to be calming down now.
I am also a little miffed that they did not clean him up after his enema? I had to put him in the tub and get as much off as gently and quickly as I could before he started flipping out. He is drinking water and eating his treat and calming down now.
I will be taking him back each day around 9:30AM to get his Sub-q's and then once I'm comfortable with doing it myself I will do it.
The vet told me if his numbers don't improve after the next almost week of sub-q's, water and K/D wet food that it means there is not much we can do and we will "have to make a choice"
Thank you again for all of your replies and vibes.
post #10 of 530
Giving fluids is very easy once you become used to doing it.
I have been doing fluids for over a year for my 18 year old Coco.
I would give him longer then 1 week to improve.
It takes time.
There are many other treatments for CRF besides the food and fluids.
I give Coco Phos Binders and Azodyl.
She also has been on baytril for a year because her bladder problems come back otherwise.
There are other kidney foods besides k/d.
My Coco likes the dry Purina N/F and the wet Hills L/P.
Here is more info on CRF.
http://www.felinecrf.org/
If you need any advice I can help you.
post #11 of 530
I'm afraid I dont agree with your vet - a week isnt' nearly long enough, as his kidney values could be false due to his dehydration. I would say go with the CRF Mantra - treat the cat, not the numbers. I am glad he is eating the k/d, but as Mews2much says, there are other kidney diets out there. I dont know about where you are, but in the UK, Fortekor is often prescribed to CRF cats, and I know people who's cats have had years with it (my CRF cat can't have it though)
post #12 of 530
All my prayers go out to you and Booboo. I hope his health turns around and you get to spend more time with him in this life.
post #13 of 530
Thread Starter 
Thank you again for your replies. I'm in the US, btw. Vet said they will do another blood draw at the end of this week (or beginning of next) to see how the fluids may have changed the numbers. Yes, I read that CRF site and still am looking at it, so much info and God Bless the person who put all of that together! I agree, treat the cat, not the numbers. This morning he is doing a bit better, he is purring, he stretched, and he is able to jump into his favorite rocking chair. His nose was pink when I got home but after about an hour it has gone pale again. The vet said this was a sign of anemia, but I believe during his whole life when he is still for long periods of time or it wasn't VERY warm in the house, his nose would go pale like that. I never thought anything about it. I did notice his gums when the vet showed me and they WERE pale. I will talk to the doc about doing something for the anemia and everything else. Also a sanitary shave (wish they would've done that before they gave him the enema) and to try and wash his tooshie so he doesn't get a UTI.
I will update if I get any new news or information. Blessings to all of you for being such kind hearted people.
post #14 of 530
I would be furious that they left him in his own poop. That happened to a cat of mine once, and that was the last time I went to that vet.

I agree with the others that a week isn't a good indication of how the fluids will help him. I would wait at least two weeks before doing blood work again.

Hills Prescription c/d is a great food for what it is designed for. I have a cat on it, and do worry sometimes about what will happen when she ages and may need some other special diet.

Ootay, my CRF kitty was on sub q for kidneys for three years. It wasn't the CRF that got her in the end it was stroke. Be sure the vet stays on top of checking THYROID and BLOOD PRESSURE. Both these often accompany CRF.

Regarding constipation, also common with CRF. He may need to be on a stool softener (such as miralax)

Please try not to blame yourself. Cats are masters at hiding illness.

Keep us updated on BooBoo and of course don't hesitate to ask questions, as many of us have been where you are today.
post #15 of 530
Thread Starter 
I am definitely going to speak to the Vet himself about leaving him in his own poop. They know I am one of those cat momma's that want him home ASAP and I can't stand leaving him there by himself. I think they've become annoyed with me being how I am. I've overheard several nurses there gossiping about other owners. The Vet himself I like, and the staff gossips about him too, but I would prefer another vet in another county, but like I said, with Booboo going downhill like he was, I didn't think he could cope with a 30 minute car ride there and hours of wait time (That vet is -extremely- popular). I will also consult with the Vet about thyroid and blood pressure, along with the anemia. You all help to save lives I believe, and I thank you soooo much.
post #16 of 530
My vet always says that owners who don't call and check on their cats etc worry her, so I would be worried about a vet clinic that doesnt want to deal with the calls - it is part of their job (as long as you are not calling every 10 mins).

But then I went through several vets before I found one I like dealing with
post #17 of 530
Quote:
Originally Posted by icklemiss21 View Post
My vet always says that owners who don't call and check on their cats etc worry her, so I would be worried about a vet clinic that doesnt want to deal with the calls - it is part of their job (as long as you are not calling every 10 mins).

But then I went through several vets before I found one I like dealing with

Me too. Took 7 years and four practices, the fifth practice was the charm, and out of the six staff vets, I finally found my dream vet.

I have heard staff gossiping among themselves over clients too, and one time it was about ME, so when I spoke up and said so, hopefully that taught them to be more discreet. I don't necessarily disapprove of staff having discussions among themselves, we all have to relieve our feelings, and it's human nature to vent to one another.

They just need to be more tactful and discreet and make sure they aren't audible to any clients at all.

Having said that:

To the OP: I hope you don't concern yourself with what the staff may or may not being saying about you. You are a loving attentive concerned mama, and are doing what is best for you and your cats, and it's not for them to approve or disapprove

They are there to answer the phone and to provide these services to you. If it weren't for conscientious pet owners, they wouldn't have a job.
post #18 of 530
I found my vet when I called every vet in the city, even the ones I will not use on a regular basis for an emergency appointment when my vet refused me an emergency appt but his staff later called to schedule a vaccine/annual check up appt and suddenly had lots of availability. I went with the earliest appt I could get with a tiny practise near me that deals with cats only - she didnt have an appointment but said she would stay late if I could come at 7 when she closed.

I just loved her, she was so great with Scully, answered all my questions and included me in every decision we made. I didn't dislike my vet before that, they were not as 'into' the care of my cats as my previous vet who had retired from that same practise but they were not bad - but they seem to want to concentrate on the easy money making stuff rather than diagnostics etc
post #19 of 530
Thread Starter 
You are right I should not concern myself. I fear that any dislike of me will spill over to my cat, though. I always try to be as nice as possible. That being said, I watched the injection today, and... I cannot do it. I just cannot possibly do that to him. I thought it was a needle of fluid, not a 1000ml bag hung up and an IV drip! He got 200 ml today, and I had to hold him during it. He was NOT happy and I've never seen him get that furious before, it was scary. They used an "18" needle, whatever that is, as one of the Vet docs there said "at LEAST use an 18" (I do not prefer this doc, same doc that somehow misdiagnosed a fungus in his ears for "dog mites") Is that needle too large? I will do some research. I cannot do this to him. I was good to go right up until she showed me how to tent his skin and stick the needle in, then told me if it stops flowing I would have to move the needle around a bit and pull on his skin a bit, and... UGH I can't do it! Too much risk of him trying to injure me severely or cause me to inadvertently injure him, I will just have to pay them. I am also going to purchase some Feliway (45 dollars there, for a small spray bottle?) to calm him. In the future I may just have to go to 1 of the 2 other vets available that are further but are, in my opinion, more careful and caring. I will try to watch each time to get more comfortable. We will see >.<
As for the stool issue, the doc that always works on him was off today so I asked politely that he call me when he has a minute TOMORROW and that I needed to speak with him about a few things.
Good news though, Booboo's eyes are much wider, clearer and livelier, he did not drool or seem to get -as- stressed out (His butt was cleaned and shaved so that is part of his aggression at the vet) so maybe having to go every day for a little while will get him more used to it? I hope so. I really have to get some sleep
Again, thank you so much, I cannot express in words how much help you have all been and you are all priceless. Blessings to you! Will update if anything changes...
post #20 of 530
Usually the amount will come down over time.

An 18# needle is completely normal, personally I prefer the 20#, it takes a bit longer but the needle isnt as mean looking - it also depends how well they tolerate the needle, for some cats the quicker the better and so need the 18#

Honestly, it does get easier, the first time I did it was at the shelter and the vet talked me through it on the phone (I do know how to tent the skin and inject other things, like microchips, just had never done fluids) - I was really freaked out but it becomes second nature.

If he does need fluids ongoing, they can implant a little tube into the cat that you attach the bag to which can be easier on everyone and some cats need a restraining bag while getting fluids to keep them still long enough.

This link walks you through it quite well with pics
http://www.weirdstuffwemake.com/weir.../catjuice.html


I think you can get Feliway cheaper elsewhere, even in the large pet stores. The spray is on sale for $26 at petsmart.com (print it and they will honour the price instore) and the plug in with a refill for $38
post #21 of 530
Aw...don't worry. Please trust us, it is not as bad as it seems. I've given sub q fluids not only to my CRF kitty Ootay (rb 5/09) but to Tolly, Mazy and Jennie, too, when they were sick and needed fluids.

I've also given fluids to my mother's cats.

The # 18 needle is a common size to use, because the flow of fluids is faster. A #21 is much smaller, but also slows down the flow.

It doesn't take most cats long to make the connection between getting fluids and feeling better.

The prick of the needle does not really cause that much pain, once it's through the skin it no longer hurts at all.

Cats can get used to most anything, if it's done right. Remember, the fluids are cold, when given at the vet. Doing it at home, you can warm the bag to BooBoo's body temperature, and once the needle is in, he'll hardly even feel a thing.

I understand your stress. The first few months when I started with Ootay were terrible. But it got easier as time went on, I got better at it, and she made the connection between getting fluids and feeling better, and she learned to trust me when doing it.

I did get very stressed at first, and had to do stress reducing things before starting a session as I didn't want her to feel my stress.

You can do this, you can. It's for BooBoo. We will help you.
post #22 of 530
So how often are they recommending the fluids for Boo Boo.
post #23 of 530
[quote=otto;2838592]Me too. Took 7 years and four practices, the fifth practice was the charm, and out of the six staff vets, I finally found my dream vet.QUOTE]

Many years ago I had a cat with chronic diarrhea and went to at least 7 vets before I found one that knew what was going on. That experience taught me to educate myself as much as I could and be proactive in the treatment plan.
post #24 of 530
I use the 18 G needles for Coco and they work fine.
Many people use the 18 G.
It is not bad at all.
The blood pressure is important.
My Coco has high bp and she takes Norvasc for it.
Anemia is common in CRF cats also.
Stripe my CRF cat that I lost would need blood transfusions because the anemia was so bad.
BTW my Coco just sits there and purrs when she gets the fluids.
I hope you can change vets.
Your vet sounds like a jerk.

post #25 of 530
Snickerdoodle, for BooBoo's constipation, I HIGHLY recommend Miralax. My CRF kitty is on it, and it's a Godsend! For literally years, my Sven suffered and strained and nothing helped (he would not eat pumpkin or Laxatone, even the lactulose prescribed by the Vet stopped working after just a short time). I asked our Vet about Miralax after doing much investigating, and she was unaware of it, but checked into it and said "ok", so we immediately tried him on it and he has been regular ever since. This was back in October! We give it to him twice a day, just mix it with 1.5 cc of water and shoot it into his mouth (since he doesn't eat wet food). He doesn't even mind taking it because I think he knows it's purpose, smart kitty!!

As for the Sub-q fluids, I agree with everyone else, it will become easy for you, and BooBoo, once he realized that it's making him feel better, and once YOU are the one doing it, since you love him so. It's different than having a technician who doesn't show him love and affection while they are doing it. I think he'll react differently when it's you doing it, but you might want to have another pair of hands available the first few times, since it's kind of tricky getting the flow started while making sure he doesn't wiggle too much, etc!
post #26 of 530
I just did my first sub-q last night on Tigger. This cat will not let you pick her up, pill her, cut her nails...anything. I used a 21 needle, and putting the needle in was no problem. She did growl when the fluids started going in, so maybe I didn't warm them up enough. She did move a little and the needle came out. (kinda funny, it was like a fire hose, all squirting all over the place!) Anyway, I inserted the needle again, and again, it wasn't the needle she even felt, it was when I opened it up again to let the fluids through.

She was pretty sick last night, and even though I only got about 500 into her, it really perked her up!
post #27 of 530
I agree with the Miralax.
My Coco takes that.
post #28 of 530
Quote:
Originally Posted by kluchetta View Post
I just did my first sub-q last night on Tigger. This cat will not let you pick her up, pill her, cut her nails...anything. I used a 21 needle, and putting the needle in was no problem. She did growl when the fluids started going in, so maybe I didn't warm them up enough. She did move a little and the needle came out. (kinda funny, it was like a fire hose, all squirting all over the place!) Anyway, I inserted the needle again, and again, it wasn't the needle she even felt, it was when I opened it up again to let the fluids through.

She was pretty sick last night, and even though I only got about 500 into her, it really perked her up!

Is this a typo? Did you mean 50? 500 ml is an awful lot for a cat all at one time. At least.... I've never heard of giving that much. I would think it could cause edema.
post #29 of 530
Thread Starter 
He has received 200ML of the fluids twice. This was the second day. I have to take him up there each day for the rest of the week for 1 treatment a day. I know I shouldn't jump to saying I can't do it, it is just so terrifying. What if he jerks and I puncture through his ribcage into his lung, or something horrible like that? I will try to keep my mind open and do it. It also took about 15-20 minutes for the fluid to get in there, and that was after setting everything up. It seemed to take forever today, but hopefully that will be a little better once I become more used to it.
I was upbeat when the nurse told me that he could -possibly- get to the point where he only needs it twice a week. They said they would lessen the ML given to under 200 once they think he was getting hydrated enough. But after talking to my friend who just lost a cat to cancer, telling me I need to think "about what is best for the cat," I am just depressed all over again. But I will try to stay positive! He is doing well for now and cleaning himself, and hopefully his tooshie will become not so tender soon. I know I can't take him up to the vet for the rest of his life, even 2 days a week, I guess I was hoping he would become used to it but it may cause more harm than good with all the stress.. I was told after this week's hydration we will do another CBC and see where the numbers are at, and talk about treatment for BP and everything else.
If it wasn't 200 ML I would be more open to it, 200 took so long it seemed!
Oh goodness. We will see! Thank you all for being so positive and helping me through this difficult time.
I WILL talk to the vet about Miralax! He went poop last night and it looked fairly normal except it was in balls instead of one long portion.
The prices they gave me for take home supplies we 50 cents a needle, 10 needles is 5 dollars, 1000ML of fluid was $22.00 and the extension set was 7 dollars which they said I can reuse. I would not be reusing needles.
Thanks again guys.
post #30 of 530
Go to Thriving Pets.
I order my supplies there and it saves alot of money.
My Coco gets 100 mL every other day.
Do not be afraid to do the fluids at home.
I was scared at first also but it is easy.
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