Mean Mommy!

I am embarrassed. I came down rather hard on this subject. Living so closely with so many cats, and observing them very closely, I guess I get pretty involved with their personal and private lives. Perhaps it is guilt for all the years I actually believed the research and the scientific interpretations of their behavior. Until very recently, a vet or animal researcher who ascribed analytical thinking or human-like emotions to so-called lower-animals was considered nuts. As a result, I totally mishandled all my pets. At the same time, it was popular to ascibe all human behavior to environmental influences rather than instincts or interitance (the extent of genetic influences, except when breeding for physical characteristics, was not yet suspected). All though my lifetime, these opinions have raged. It all seems a little silly now. Many behavioral patterns can now be identified in humans by a specific gene, and many neuroses and emotionally-linked physical and behavioral problems can be traced to environmental influences as well. But twin studies have, I hope, once and for all settled the stupid argument of EITHER evironment OR inheritance.

Perhaps we are finally entering the age of the golden mean, which recognizes the influence of BOTH environment and genetics -- at least in our handling of humans. There is still a lot of nonsense about "animals" being driven mainly by "instinct" -- which is another way of saying that they are hardwired along rigid patterns of behavior and can only be "modified" by various kinds of behavioral training incorporating rewards and punishments in appropriate doses.

-- conveniently forgetting that humans also belong to the animal kingdom, and are now being found to have a fair amount of hardwiring, as well, and there is an entire school of behavioral psychology to cure the emotionally deviant (autistics, among other misunderstood people) humans.

With such large numbers of animals actually in-house, I have finally learned a truth about them. They are as individual and prone to joy and sadness and both temporary and apparently permanent neuroses as any bunch of humans I have ever known. There are male cats who habitually rush around trying to murder newborn kittens, who pick vicious fights with other cats -- not just because they have an over-abundance of testosterone, but simply because they seem to hate all of their own kind. And then there are full tomcats who develop passions for one or several females and stick close to them both in and out of season, and who never pick fights with any other cat, only reluctantly (like the western cowboy heros of old) defend themselves and their particular females.

The emotional attachments, alienation, sensitivity, callousness, irrational hatreds and fears, timidity, love, loyalty, and self-centeredness often transcends what we might expect from the basic hardwiring of the typical cat.

In short, they are often disturbed or pleased by many of the same kinds of things the human animals are, and while some can manage a lot of trauma and come out pretty balanced, there are others who take their bad experiences and never quite recover from them.

Add to this that they live in an autistic world among humans, as we do when we enter into their world. We don't speak the same language. We learn very basic sounds and behaviors, learn to identify certain kinds of body language (often, sadly, misinterpreted by one or both sides). The interface between us is fraught with misunderstanding, misconcneptions, historical myths, flawed scientific research, and unrealistic expectations. The same bundle of problems that, to one degree or another, bedevil well-meaning people when they decide to foster children who have problems or who are certifiably emotionally disturbed. We essentially foster, and hope to adopt, animals that we can't really communicate with directly. This means lots and lots of effort and observation, if we are going to do a good job of it, and it means always approaching any situation as if it has been "given" that all parties have the best of intentions, instead of anticipating that some of our pets are somehow wicked, sly, stupid, or willful.

Most people don't recognize that any animal, human or other, responds to trauma and to its opposites -- love, security, certainty -- in much the same way, moderated only by their life-experience and to certain genetic imperatives. In psychology, the experts are always talking about the "self" and the "other." It is really the same thing And our inability to recognize the importance of the combination of genetics and personal history in any relationship is why the Irish and the English, the Israelis and Arabs, the Serbs and the Albanians, can't reconcile differences. And why cats and dogs, and humans and dogs, and humans and cats often just choose to live within a single household in an atmosphere where everyone agrees to ignore the other except during certain mutually accepted activities.

Sasha has had a great deal of trauma, and she reacts by alternately loving and rejecting her kititens and alternately submitting to love and petting and then suddenly clawing or fighting. She is therefore disfunctional -- one hopes temporarily. She requires careful therapeutic care. She requires more one-on-one care than a less emotionally damaged cat, but she is caught within a normal household, where family members have active and interactive lives, and don't really have the time or patience to spend with her -- especially when there are other dependent animals in need as well (-- the kittens). In my own household, I live alone, my work is at home, so I am rarely gone, and I can take off from my work whenever I am needed to resolve a dispute or soothe sudden bursts of fear or temper. Every day I manage to spend twenty or more minutes with each animal separately, or sometimes with several at a time -- quality time that they can depend upon. In normal households, this is impossible. It is like the mother who has a number of relatives of various ages living in her house, as well as her husband and 14 children from the newborn twins to the kids in high school. If the mother also has an outside job and her quality mothering time is reduced to one or two hours a day, if that, lots of things slip through the emotional slats.

My urging you to find a home for the kittens is based on this kind of scenario. You are probably still in school, the rest of your family doesn't seem all that keen to try to deal with a neurotic cat -- and let's face it, it isn't a picnic to be scratched -- and Sasha has to deal, in her state of mind and physical hurts, with two demanding kids that want to nurse. The situation requires some rearrangement so everyone can have their quality togetherness and also their quality repose. With Sasha in so fragile an emotional state, it would be best if her rapidly growing kids could be cared for elsewhere -- good for them as well as for her. If that is impossible, then you have to rethink how to reorganize the household and your own time to give Sasha the emotional security and care she needs and still give the quality of love and cuddling to the kittens. When you achieve a breakthrough with such a pet -- much as when you see someone regain their health because of your time and attention -- the emotional reward is huge. But sometimes it takes a while to get to the good part.

So all of that is at the root of my flying off the emotional precipice. Like I say, I reread what I wrote and I think perhaps I was so worried for your Sasha, that I forgot about the people involved. If I offended, Michelle, I apologize.

I really wish you and yours the patience to see this rough patch through to a happy conclusion.

And dear Lotsocats -- I have not heard of using St. John's Wort for cats, but I should think that a powder mixed with a nice, strong-smelling canned cat food would have the same effect as liquid. What kind of dosage were you thinking? Any healthfood store has the capsules...

Do cats respond to valerian drops? So many things (example -- aspirin) that people take are just plain bad for cats... Personally, when my cats are miserable, I put a basket near the bed and sing to them like I would a fretful child. Or, if they are agreeable, take them up on my lap (being careful not to restraint them or pester them with a lot of petting), and talk silly nonsence to them off an on in baby-talk tones. Unless they are being totally berzerk, this seems to be good. Mostly, when they fly off the handle or start crying for attention, they just need some tender-loving singling out in a quiet place. Several of my cats calm down if I am watching National Geographic -- they love to watch monkeys, in particular, and similar types of animals. Other cats get agitated and nervous -- especially if the animals on the TV suddenly charge the camera as if they are going to leap out into the room...

Each cat responds to different kinds of things when they need soothing...

If Michelle can find what Sasha responds to, then she will have a way of soothing her fear and uncertainty.

Michelle, any updates??? Hope everything's okay with Sascha, the kittens AND your family! Please keep us posted. We are anxious to hear from you.
Pamela

Wow... I just read this thread. Michelle I too would love to hear an update. I truly do hope things are better.

Remember, with the water gun. It is to be used as a punishment. If you choose this method, use it to deter the kittens from clawing up the drapes not to repromend Sasha for biting her kittens.

Catspride... you write so educated and seem like a fantastic care giver to your animals. I enjoyed reading your posts, and the advice you gave. You sound quite remarkable.

Michelle, she has given you fantastic advice, I truly do hope it helps you. Good luck :flower:

While I haven't posted, I have been following this thread with interest. I am also very anxious to hear an update, and if anything has changed with this situation, Michelle. Please let us hear from you, dear.

Catspride, do not be embarrassed. Your post, even if strong, was well-intentioned and in the spirit of helping where you thought you could. Thank you for your contributions here.

Yours,

Gaye

you guys gave me some great advice...even if giving them away is the last thing I want to hear, I understand that that may be the only way. Meanwhile, Sasha is sleeping in my room every night, and is very calm during that time. she sleeps all night instead of yowling at midnight, 1, 2, 3, 3:15, 3:20, etc... she now wakes up around either 8 or 5, depending. but she has been nicer lately, and I'm waiting to see if she's finally calming down, or if it's just another one of her nice times, and she'll be back in attack mode soon. right now, she's doing well, but we'll see. thank you for caring; you guys are a blessing.

Dear Michelle, If Sasha is happy to sleep in your room at night and it has a calming effect, then you may have found the key. Put the kittens in another part of the house -- they can be company for each other -- and see how it reads for a week. but remember that the kittens are at an age where they are almost not adoptable.

Sasha seems to be responding to the security and quiet she needs for sleeping. It may be that she is a day cat rather than a night cat -- some cats need to prowl or be active at night, while others prefer the daytime. Once I know which ones are which, I arrange things so the night prowlers have easy access in and out of the house to eat or drink, while the day prowlers sleep. During the day, the situation is reversed. By making sure that each cat has available food, water, and easy access to safety, I can get most of the cats habituated to staying out of the area garbage cans -- which means much less risk of poisoning or crossing roadways. When they want devilment, they catch mice or small snakes, or even large cockroaches, which benefits everyone.

She will very likely relapse, but perhaps she is already on the mend. Encourage your mother not to go for her with a broom when she is being difficult. It seems to me that you are handling the situation a little more calmly....? Please keep us posted, and let us know details about how she responds to things you try.

As I write this, I have the newest of my foundlings sitting on a small cleared space on a table next to my computer. Being new and unsure of things, he is talking to me to get some extra attention. So ---

------- so I now took time out to tell him all about Sasha and to read to him what I wrote. He watched me very intently, settled down, and is now content. Of course, I don't expect him to understand what I told him, but I find that cats enjoy hearing stories -- even somewhat long ones -- and any emotional content that causes the voice to rise and fall fascinates them. He has now settled to grooming instead of crying for attention. He is also very unsure of his place here and is still working out his relationships with the other cats. But fortunately for me, his previous home must have been a wonderful one, and his traumas related to being lost, fighting with other toms, and starving for a while were things he could cope with. His injuries were nothing a tomcat would consider tramatic -- just part of his hardwiring. He is now in more famliar surroundings, with two communal litter boxes (in the computer room and the bathroom), plenty of water in several places, and a constant supply of dry cat food well out of reach of curious dogs. And he has never been a scratcher, so he doesn't court rejection. Slowly, slowly does it.

Peace...

well, our kittens are almost 12 weeks now, so I assume they could be adopted out...but we really don't want to get rid of them. It seems to me that all our kitties are both night AND day cats. they alternate between sleeping and playing all day...Only when she sleeps with one of us does Sasha sleep through the night. the kittens just continue their pattern of sleep, play, sleep, play, all night. however, Sasha seems to think that 5:30 in the morning is actually morning. she does not realize that this is actually the middle of the night. so she goes and sits by my door and tells me (very loudly) that it is time to wake up and let her out. well, I can't do that, because she just cries until the whole house is up, and no matter where she is, she wants everyone to be awake when she is. so I will usually open my shades so she can see outside and she will sleep for another 2 hours or so. unfortunatly, 7 AM is still the middle of the night for me, and the very beginning of morning for my mom. so we usually just put her in the back room where her cries are muffled until someone is up to play with her. is there any way to keep her from crying so early?

I totally forgot about this. we decided that we are going to get Sasha a new collar that she can't pull off, have our address and phone # put on her liscense (right now it just has the shelter's info on it) and try letting her go outside. we'll start slow- taking her out but watching carefully. eventually we'll let her out more on her own. she will ALWAYS come in at night. I don't think she'll wander off. after all, who would feed her and who would supervise all activities in the house? without her, wouldn't this house just be in chaos? well...maybe not, but I think she'll stick around. what do you guys think? we're hoping maybe this will calm her down.

The cat decides when you should wake up. I thought everyone knew that! Until I decided to leave the bedroom window half open for mine to come in and out, 5 am was the latest they ever let me sleep. they would walk across my face, pull my hair sit on my chest and breathe in my face, or simply play tag over my body until I struggled up to let them out. Half and hour later, they would cry to come back in, and so on until around 7. By then I would agree with them that I should really be up.

As to putting out the cat at night, If you have a secure place for them to sleep (on the roof of the porch or an open window into the house, or best, a cat door, why not? the problem is that the world is more and more dangerous for cats, and you have to think about giving them a place to run to if they are in trouble.

Whether a cat will come home every day depends very much on how she has bonded with you. You can never really know how they will behave until you turn them loose. Lots of luck.

well, Sasha does seem like she may be calming down a little. she still wakes up very early, but I usually just take her and stick her upstairs until someone else lets her out. this works just fine for me, though I don't know how my parents feel about it. But, for the most part, she does sleep through the night now. She has fewer "Time to try and kill the kittens or the humans...whichever is nearest" episodes. but they do still happen. I had a theory (I have a lot of those) that she's not trying to hurt them- maybe she just wants to play, right? she usually only does it when the kittens are trying to jump on her or chase her tail, and when you watch her, she really does the same thing the kittens do when they are playing together. It's just that she is much bigger, and they are much smaller, and so she may inflict pain without actually meaning to. This whole thing is just a thought I had...please tell me what you think.
So, anyway, I was thinking that maybe she just needs a playmate her own age (and size) so she can play with them and not hurt the kittens. I mentioned it one day to my mom, and she said no. But, I think if I work on her, she may warm up to the idea. The cats don't really seem to like her a whole lot, and really, they're mostly mine. Daddy gets along well with them, but they just don't seem to care much about Mom. so, I was thinking that maybe we could go to the shelter, and she could pick out a cat that she likes, and that likes her. I wonder how Sasha would tolerate this though. when I picked her out at the shelter, I walked with her in my arms past a little divider in the room...not really a wall, just a place where the ceiling and walls come in about a foot. before that, she was fine, but when she got a look at some of the cats she couldn't see from her cage, she tensed in my arms, and hissed. I wasn't sure if it was because she doesn't get along with any other cats, or jsut becuase these cats were unfamiliar...or if it was just that one cat she didn't like. But I really like the idea of another cat in the house, and I figure that after three...what big difference could another one make? I would even take care of it myself! But, I would like your words of wisdom before I go bringing this up with my parents again. so...what do you think?

Dear Michelle, I wouldn't get another cat for Sasha. Personally, I think she's had enough change and newness. I have the feeling that your mother will eventually come around with the kittens. They are hopefully going to be less complicated than their mother and will use their cat instincts to win your mother over.

And no, I don't think Sasha was just playing. Rather, think of all play as training for killing and hunting. In fact much of human play is for honing skills that could be useful in a fight. Soccer, rugby, football, tennis, even tag, are all ways to increase body-mind coordination -- to train the eye to identify movements quickly. Lobbing a hand grenade is not so different from accurately putting a ball through a hoop.

Almost all cat play-behaviors are actually dress rehearsals for the hunt or for life and death fights. Don't give Sasha more problems than she has already. Just love her and fuss over her and make her feel like the queen of the house (while, naturally, doing the same to the kittens), and don't increase her paranoia by bringing in an intruder. What she needs now is certainty, security, peace.

The kittens, by the way, should still be protected from her moods. Don't lock them up in the same room together, or you may have further tragedy.

I am very interested in how she gets along, so I hope you will keep us posted.

Peace,

Michelle,

Unfortunately, I agree with Catherine about not getting another cat. It is too much of a risk to bring another cat into the household while you are still having some problems with your cat and this probably will alienate Sasha from you and others again.

I know how tempting it is to get another cat but having a cat is a BIG committment. What would u do if u did bring home another cat and Sasha gets worse and maybe even the kittens will be upset also. What will u do with the new cat then???? It'd be very unfair to that cat if u got him/her from a shelter, give him/her a home then after a few weeks/months, give her back to a shelter or to another home where he/she'd have to adjust all over to a new family and home or be stuck at a shelter...

I don't want what happened to me happening to u. I raised a calico cat and ADORE her. AFter having her for almost 8-9 years, I found another cat injured on a street and rescued him. When I brought him home from the vet hospital, Rusty (calico cat) freaked out. She got really angry and would hiss, growl and attack me. This is STILL going on with me and it has been over SEVEN years!! I don't think Rusty will ever forgive me for bringing another cat home. I am the only one in the family she'd react negatively to. She'd pur, rub and beg other members of the family to pet her but as soon as I step into the same room as Rusty is, she'd run and hide or hiss and attack me.

I know that there's no way for me to have her in my home now because she'd be very unhappy so I have to leave her with my parents with Sammy.

If I had known that would've happened, I would have had second thoughts about adopting Sammy (stray I rescued)- I'd have worked a lot harder to get another home for him.

Let us know what u've decided..
Good luck!
Pamela

Dear Pamela, I had the same experience with my "old lady" -- and she, in turn, endured the same behavior from my first cat here in Israel. I had a male cat I got to teach my Beduin sheep dog not to chase or try to kill cats. This worked incredibly well, after some very applied psychology (I began to give special treats to both the dog and the little kitten at the same time (protecting the kitten in my hands and putting a perimeter of chairs around my on my chair so the dog had to lean over a little to get his treat...))

After a few weeks., both kitten and dog knew that they got a treat when they were together, but never got one separately. After a few more weeks, the kitten began to play with the dog. Sheep dogs are incredibly gentle and careful when they decide something needs their protection, and Nemish totally adopted the kitten, tho it was only as big as his skull at that point (he was 9 months old and big).

About 3 years later Nemish decided to adopt a second cat -- a tiny little calico female who came to the screen door and cried to come in. Woof! Nemish said, calling me to come to the door. And Woof! several more times, a little whine, wagging tale, face expectant. So I took the kitten in. For 4 years, my first cat, Happy, attacked both me and the new cat (Gypsy). In the last year of his life, Happy looked like he ws at least reaching a modus vivendi -- he sort of ignored Gypsy and me except when we got in his way. Dogs killed Happy a year before Nemish himself had to be put down because of a long-term illness and a fast-growing cancer. During that year, Nemish pined away for Happy, and I think it helped him to stop fighting his illness.

Then Gypsy was the single cat, and she mellowed enormously and became very close to me. But, of course, I spoiled it by adopting two kittens from the street.

Now it is going on 4 years since I started to adopt and care for strays and ferals, and this past year, Gypsy seems to have turned a corner. I have never stopped talking to her whenever she is nearby, or making sure she is personally served with any special treats going. A little over a year ago, she began to unbend a little, inviting me to just touch her, but no more and only by invitation. for the past few months I have been able to stroke her gently from nose to tail (but NOT her tail), maybe three strokes at a time. At that point, her tail begins to stiffen and then twitch very slightly, and that's my warning to move off as if it were all my own idea.

So going into the fourth year, I see vast improvement. But I cannot trust her to react well if she is in a bad mood, I surprise or startle her, or I read her invitation incorrectly. At least now we have a kind of bitter-sweet relationship, and there is better harmony in the household.

My hat is really off to you. I think you take the record for maintaining a hostile cat in your household. I know, I know. You know it was your fault as I know it was mine when I took in Gypsy (and Happy went crazy), and then the kittens (and Gypsy went into psychotic jealousy). But SEVEN years!

I handled Happy badly. I still didn't understand cats and when he got to slashing at me or the new kitten or even is dearest friend, Nemish, I would take the broom and drive him from the house. I include Happy in my prayers of penitence these days. I know now what I did to his nerves and his soul by my gut-reaction to his violence. I betrayed his love by punishing him for a jealousy he couldn't really control in a supercharged situation. He scratched me, and instead of really understanding how to deal with it (in those days I was almost as neurotic as he was -- I very much feared getting scratched or bitten, and if I bled I felt as if I were going to die of a million cat-carried (mostly imaginary) diseases. Even with Gypsy, I started off only a little better.

But by the second year of taking in strays -- many of them totally dependent and helpless kititens who needed bottle-feeding -- I found my focus shifting from my own fear of claws to what the kittens needed. This led me to understanding of both myself and the cats at a much deeper level. So my treatment of Gypsy has been to always try to move a little closer to her month by month, even at the risk of her formidable claws and teeth. I understand that she would not attack me to the death (--that would be quite another kettle of fish!!), and that her aim is despair, a sense of loss, and to punish me like she feels she has been punished so unfairly (by my taking in rivals). I could the now occasional scratches and gouges not as vicious acts, but as understandable actions by a desperately unhappy cat, and I have sa twith her bleeding and in pain, talking to her gently about how sad it makes us both that we cannot find a pathway back to friendship at least.

So now I can report after three plus, almost four, years, that she has been responding.

Patience, patience, patience.

With each new cat and the problems of dealing with the growls and hisses (which are certainly normal), I now have a sort of procedure much like I think you, Pamela, or maybe it was someone else, recommended. But that's not the topic today....

Michelle, don't get another cat unless you are ready to stay home for the next few years and guard, protect, and apply psychotherapy on 24-hours a day call. When you have your own household and can perhaps (depending on the kind of work you do) spend the better part of your waking hours be available to your dependent animals, might be the time to feel comfortble about adopting a new grown cat into a household where you already have a serious problem. A lot of cats really don't enjoy other cats around once they become mature. They are by nature solitary animals. In general, they only become comfortable in a lion-pride situation when they decide their love for you is more important than their own unique territory. Even then, then choose and sometimes defend, their special place on the dresser, or their very own feeding dish. Each cat who belongs to a pride has a different place when they draw the line that demarks their territorial perogative. And as long as you (and the other cats and dogs, etc.) permit them that illusion of their own private spot, most of them will accept all the rest of the little invasions of their privacy.

Turn you psychology on your mother. Help her to see that Sasha is not mean or a monster, but reacted in some obscure cat imperative that you may never understand. Forgiveness has to be granted to her for killing her little ones, and you for not separating them immediately. Through forgiveness comes the kind of love and understanding that hopefully will smooth away all the rest.

I hope for peace in your household.