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Haiti kidnapping case; an interesting twist - Page 2

post #31 of 54
2/20/10 at 7:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazycatlover View Post
IT doesn't make it right. Seriously how could they not know they needed proper documentation to get these kids out. Just because they feel they would have a better life doesn't give them the right to just take them.
What I've experienced of church culture these days suggests to me that there's a huge element that confuses human emotional responses with religious experiences. People influenced by that, like one of my friends, think that their reaction to the earthquake means they're called to go over there and help people. People who are able to make that mental leap have no problem with the mental leap between "I'm called to help people" and "these are people that I'm called to help, so God will bless it and make everything go OK."
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post #32 of 54
2/26/10 at 5:32am
Thread Starter 
It looks like they're still not bribing the right people. It would be helpful to know who to bribe when committing crimes in foreign countries.

Haiti judge: No release of US Baptists this week

Isn't it lovely what they've been teaching the Haitian christians?

Police said a pastor urged followers to attack the vodoo ceremony, resulting in a crowd of people throwing rocks at the voodoo followers.

Yet not word of this unprovoked, intolerant attack in the US mainstream media? Whatever happened to "fair and balanced"?
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post #33 of 54
2/26/10 at 8:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Of course it's not the paycheck. It's the perceived political clout. If things don't go their way, they can simply threaten to take their ball (and our money) and go home and leave the homeless, hungry and uneducated swinging in the wind. They've already tried it too.
Oh good GRIEF! One religious charity out of thousands that did the above does NOT wipe out all the good faith based charities do in this country and all over the world.

In any groups, faith based or not, there will always be some that are off the mark.

This world, people in need in particular, would be in a LOT worse shape
if it were not for faith based charities.
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post #34 of 54
2/26/10 at 8:07am
Quote:
Mr Beauvoir claimed the evangelicals attacked the ceremony along with other people they hired, causing injury. He also accused evangelicals of using post-quake aid supplies such as food and medicine to try to "buy souls".
"Claimed" is right.

Oh yeah, this Voodoo, dude sounds like a real nice guy.



Quote:
"I would like to see each one of them tied up in ropes and thrown in the sea," the voodoo priest said.
Both quotes from Skippy's link.
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post #35 of 54
2/26/10 at 8:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Oh good GRIEF! One religious charity out of thousands that did the above does NOT wipe out all the good faith based charities do in this country and all over the world.

In any groups, faith based or not, there will always be some that are off the mark.

This world, people in need in particular, would be in a LOT worse shape
if it were not for faith based charities.
Well yes, that's very true. That's the kind of thing that makes me really wonder where the "ACORN is evil" mantra comes from, when no doubt it does lots of good for many people, and has many good members.

It would seem that if such broadbrushing will work in one instance, it is equally applicable to the other.
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post #36 of 54
2/26/10 at 8:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
"Claimed" is right.

Oh yeah, this Voodoo, dude sounds like a real nice guy.





Both quotes from Skippy's link.
It also mentions the police report that outlined the incident. Why not mention that?
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post #37 of 54
2/26/10 at 8:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
"Claimed" is right.

Oh yeah, this Voodoo, dude sounds like a real nice guy.





Both quotes from Skippy's link.
Had to think about this one a second...so, let's see. The voodoo response to being attacked, justifies the attack that took place before the response? Well now that is some very linear thinking.
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post #38 of 54
2/26/10 at 8:50am
Why no arrests?
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post #39 of 54
2/26/10 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Well yes, that's very true. That's the kind of thing that makes me really wonder where the "ACORN is evil" mantra comes from, when no doubt it does lots of good for many people, and has many good members.

It would seem that if such broadbrushing will work in one instance, it is equally applicable to the other.
Not to change the subject, but have you researched ACORN at all? Are you aware of its extremely secretive nature, and how it is apparently hundreds of "shell" organizations that may be being used for laundering donations, all run out of a location in New Orleans?

It may do a lot of good, but you couldn't prove it by me. It has definitely done a lot for registering voters (which was one of the places it first ran into trouble, registering bogus voters). It is certainly partisan; when asked, they organization could not show that it had ever donated to or helped any Republican candidate or anything except a Democratic candidate. And it has been unable to show that its financial records have been independently audited for years.

Now, if they want to represent themselves as an arm of the Democratic party, which seems to be what they actually are, that's fine. But they need to play by those rules. And if they want to represent themselves as community activists, helping the impoverished and under-represented in general, then they need to stop their partisan operation.

And yes, I would say the same thing about any faith-based group. They need to stay out of politics and do the charitable work they are getting funded for.
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post #40 of 54
2/26/10 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Well yes, that's very true. That's the kind of thing that makes me really wonder where the "ACORN is evil" mantra comes from, when no doubt it does lots of good for many people, and has many good members.

It would seem that if such broadbrushing will work in one instance, it is equally applicable to the other.
You are SUCH a bad boy Skippy.
But I did walk right into that one.

Not an apples to apples comparison, my friend.
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post #41 of 54
2/26/10 at 11:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Why no arrests?
The christian police obviously made no arrest for exactly the same reason christian terrorists aren't identified as terrorists in the US. It wouldn't present the image that christianity is supposed to project, and they just can't have that, can they?
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post #42 of 54
2/26/10 at 11:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
You are SUCH a bad boy Skippy.
But I did walk right into that one.

Not an apples to apples comparison, my friend.
Ah, but it is actually. Comparisons can be made in numerous different ways. If you are talking shape, you can compare apples to oranges and bowling balls. If you are talking about price, weight, shipping methods, etc, they are comparable.

Both are non-profits...seems they compare to me.
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post #43 of 54
2/26/10 at 11:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
Not to change the subject, but have you researched ACORN at all? Are you aware of its extremely secretive nature, and how it is apparently hundreds of "shell" organizations that may be being used for laundering donations, all run out of a location in New Orleans?
Are you aware of the Vatican's extremely secretive nature, and how it is apparently hundreds of Parishes that are used for concealing child abusers, all run out of a location in Italy?

Quote:
It may do a lot of good, but you couldn't prove it by me. It has definitely done a lot for registering voters (which was one of the places it first ran into trouble, registering bogus voters). It is certainly partisan; when asked, they organization could not show that it had ever donated to or helped any Republican candidate or anything except a Democratic candidate. And it has been unable to show that its financial records have been independently audited for years.
Mormon and Evangelical churches offering "get out the vote" services and voter registration for the Proposition 8 campaign? Churches themselves actually conducting partisan campaigning using the churches as fund raisers. Is this a problem?

Quote:
Now, if they want to represent themselves as an arm of the Democratic party, which seems to be what they actually are, that's fine. But they need to play by those rules. And if they want to represent themselves as community activists, helping the impoverished and under-represented in general, then they need to stop their partisan operation.
If the churches want to conduct partisan operations, then they either need to play by those rules or hang up the tax-exempt status. Politics at the organizational level is a "pay to play" activity.

Quote:
And yes, I would say the same thing about any faith-based group. They need to stay out of politics and do the charitable work they are getting funded for.
Here we completely agree. But, most won't, because that will affect pretty much every religious group in the country.
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post #44 of 54
2/26/10 at 8:01pm
Quote:
Here we completely agree. But, most won't, because that will affect pretty much every religious group in the country
See, I just can't agree with that. I have never been involved with a church that into politics. The only thing my minister has ever said was, "go exercise your right to vote" if that, I really don't remember. I wouldn't attend a church that did involve itself in politics. Politics is merely wordly things that really don't matter at all in the grand scheme of things.
Salvation and Eternity.
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post #45 of 54
3/2/10 at 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
See, I just can't agree with that. I have never been involved with a church that into politics. The only thing my minister has ever said was, "go exercise your right to vote" if that, I really don't remember. I wouldn't attend a church that did involve itself in politics. Politics is merely wordly things that really don't matter at all in the grand scheme of things.
Salvation and Eternity.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of religious organizations out there that do involve themselves in politics. I've heard it argued so many times that this is a Christian nation, but it was founded to be a haven for religious freedom and that should count for all religions. Many churches do good work without expecting political favor, but they all expect you to conform to their way of thinking.
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post #46 of 54
3/3/10 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty8723 View Post
Unfortunately, there are plenty of religious organizations out there that do involve themselves in politics. I've heard it argued so many times that this is a Christian nation, but it was founded to be a haven for religious freedom and that should count for all religions. Many churches do good work without expecting political favor, but they all expect you to conform to their way of thinking.
http://www.manta.com/mb_34_F0295_000..._organizations
Plenty? How many is plenty? There are more than half a million company profiles for Religious Organizations Companies in the United States.


http://www.answers.com/topic/religious-organizations

Quote:
On a comparative level, the greatest number of religious organizations, and those boasting the largest membership figures, remain overwhelmingly Christian
I think it is fair to say the U.S. is, for the most part, a "christian nation."

Can you provide some proof, maybe some links, to how "all" churches "expect you to conform to their way of thinking" in return for their "good work."

The ones I have seen do not require anything in return for the meals they serve the homeless, to cite just one example.
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post #47 of 54
3/3/10 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
http://www.manta.com/mb_34_F0295_000..._organizations
Plenty? How many is plenty? There are more than half a million company profiles for Religious Organizations Companies in the United States.


http://www.answers.com/topic/religious-organizations



I think it is fair to say the U.S. is, for the most part, a "christian nation."

Can you provide some proof, maybe some links, to how "all" churches "expect you to conform to their way of thinking" in return for their "good work."

The ones I have seen do not require anything in return for the meals they serve the homeless, to cite just one example.
ckblv, I'm too tired tonight to find links, but I'll see about that when I have more time.

For now, isn't that what the "Religious Right" is all about? Infiltrating into politics? Haven't they more or less taken over the Republican party?

Do any missionaries go on missions without proseltizing to the people they are helping? I know people who go on missions - wonderful, sweet people whom I love dearly - but the "price" for their help is they try their best to convert everyone being helped to their way of believing. They honestly think they're helping the "non believers" find a way to get into heaven. I maintain that all roads lead to the same God and we shouldn't presume our way is the only way.

A while back, DH and I were thinking of joining a local church. However, we were not welcome to just come into that chuch without taking their indoctrination classes, so we passed. I know that not all churches are like that, and not all religious organizations involve themselves in politics - but even one organization is too many in my opinion. Religion has no business in politics.

Whether we actually are a Christian nation - or Christians just talk the loudest - I don't have an answer for that one. I will see what google comes up with when I get the time and energy.
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post #48 of 54
3/3/10 at 9:33pm
I don't think the "religious right" has taken over the Republican party at all.

You never mentioned "missionaries" in your previous post, you said "religious organizations". Of course missionaries are going to spread the good news of Jesus. That is what missionaries do. But they don't hold back giving aid.

I don't believe organized religion has any business in politics and I don't believe most of them are, I don't believe "plenty" of them are. But a few are and that makes the Left say they ALL are.

You need to try another church Misty. My church did not make me attend any classes. I think "indoctrination" is a insulting word to use though. If you feel that is what churches do, I'm surprised you want to join one.
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post #49 of 54
3/23/10 at 1:37pm
Thread Starter 
My oh my. It looks as though she actually may have tried this before. And yet, her "new orphanage" in the Dominican Republic wasn't even established when she was arrested, and there are no children there from any prior trips she may have made.

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/4935/53/

This time I'm hoping that it's not true, because if it is, what happened to the children on those first trips? I certainly hope they're not un-gainfully employed somewhere.
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post #50 of 54
4/26/10 at 7:31pm
The Haitian judge today dropped all the kidnapping charges on all the accused (although the last member may still face some lesser charges).

Kidnapping charges dropped
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post #51 of 54
4/27/10 at 3:04am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
The Haitian judge today dropped all the kidnapping charges on all the accused (although the last member may still face some lesser charges).

Kidnapping charges dropped
Oh good, they finally managed to bribe all the right people. So the only losers appear to be the children. Especially any they may have gotten out of the country before they got caught.
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post #52 of 54
4/27/10 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Oh good, they finally managed to bribe all the right people. So the only losers appear to be the children. Especially any they may have gotten out of the country before they got caught.
So nobody can do any good that you'll respect, huh?

They appeared to have the kid's best interests at heart and got carried away. You appear ready to believe the worst about them, and then wonder why others are willing to assume the worst about SEIU, or Obama, or ACORN, or anything else you seem to respect. It would sure be refreshing to see you actually give someone the benefit of the doubt.
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post #53 of 54
4/27/10 at 5:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
So nobody can do any good that you'll respect, huh?

They appeared to have the kid's best interests at heart and got carried away. You appear ready to believe the worst about them, and then wonder why others are willing to assume the worst about SEIU, or Obama, or ACORN, or anything else you seem to respect. It would sure be refreshing to see you actually give someone the benefit of the doubt.
I used to believe that there was good in everyone. It was seeing all the others assuming the worst that pretty much jaded me to that, so now what you see is merely quid pro quo.

Besides, I believe it was you that claimed something along the lines that the Haitian government and courts are corrupt and crooked to the core, and that the bribes would decide the outcome. Well, I have to agree, that appears to be exactly what happened. They finally got the money to all the right people, and now everything is just fine. Well, for all the adults with money, that is.
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post #54 of 54
5/18/10 at 11:09am
There's an update:
US missionary convicted of Haiti child smuggling
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