Red light cameras

Anybody here get a ticket or know somebody who got a ticket from a red light camera and successfully fought it? A friend just got one and she's asking me to help her. I don't think she has an affirmative defense, but it dawned on me that there is no way for them to prove she was driving the car. All they have is a photo of a license plate.

Just curious. I told her to call one of those ticket clinics and see how it would cost for them to take care of it, but I'm still curious personally.

Are you sure it's just a picture of the plate? Many have cameras on all the poles at the intersection and can capture both the front window (her face) and the plate. Some people have taken to placing signs, cups, etc. to cover their face when they think the camera will flash, just to beat the ticket.

It's a civil offense, not a criminal one. It's very hard to get them overturned. They are a money-raising scam, involving shortened yellow lights, lucrative subcontracts, and an immovable bureaucracy.

The owner of the car gets the ticket. Doesn't matter who was driving it. It's just a "fee" for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. We had it happen to some friends who sold a car and didn't take the license off it. They got the fine in the mail 6 months later.

Originally Posted by mrblanche

It's a civil offense, not a criminal one. It's very hard to get them overturned. They are a money-raising scam, involving shortened yellow lights, lucrative subcontracts, and an immovable bureaucracy.

The owner of the car gets the ticket. Doesn't matter who was driving it. It's just a "fee" for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. We had it happen to some friends who sold a car and didn't take the license off it. They got the fine in the mail 6 months later.

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I agree. I can't believe these things are legal given there is no way to prove who is driving the car. These red light cameras make me really angry. I've never had a ticket from them, but just the fact they exist makes me really mad.

Originally Posted by emrldsky

Are you sure it's just a picture of the plate? Many have cameras on all the poles at the intersection and can capture both the front window (her face) and the plate. Some people have taken to placing signs, cups, etc. to cover their face when they think the camera will flash, just to beat the ticket.

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She faxed me a copy of the ticket/notice she got in the mail and it had a web link I could go to and see not only the photos, but they also had video. Here's the catch though, it was 3 AM in a poorly lit area, and raining on top of it, so you can't make out anything except for the picture with the license plate.

Originally Posted by mrblanche

It's a civil offense, not a criminal one.

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True, and in this case it's actually a municipal code violation, but there's got to be a way to fight these things. Otherwise the cities could just start randomnly sending these out to people who haven't done anything and they would have no recourse. Legally, the owner of a car is not responsible for a minor infraction committed by another individual driving the car. If it was something like somebody loaning their car to a friend with a history of drunk driving, and then that friend gets drunk and kills somebody while DUI.... yeah, sure the owner of the car can be held liable..... but if somebody owns a car and lends it to say, their mom, and their mom runs a red light, that person can't be held responsible as far as I'm aware. I'm not an attorney though, so I could be wrong.

I not sure that criminal vs. civil is the way to describe it. It's more like a parking ticket (in Tennessee at least). If you get a ticket on your car, you (the person who registered the vehicle) are responsible for paying it, regardless of who was actually driving it. It doesn't put points on your license either. You can go to court and appeal, but you'll probably end up paying just as much in court costs that way. So yes, it's a money-making racket, nothing more.

FWIW, I saw a study that the cameras reduced the number of T-bone accidents in the intersections, but it also suggested the same results could be achieved by making the yellow cycle just a bit longer (but of course that wouldn't bring in extra revenue). Personally, I'm wondering how many people have filed suits against their town & the camera company after being rear-ended at one of those lights since people will jam on their brakes for a yellow light they wouldn't have normally stopped at.

Well, that's an interesting thought to liken it to a parking ticket, and perhaps that's why the city is fining people via a municipal code violation rather than via state law, to incentivize people to just pay the fine because it's not like they're going to get points on their license.

How ridiculous. They're really charging a lot. They want her to pay $125 for a rolling stop (right turn on red) on a street that was totally empty at 3 AM.

I'm still going to look into how she can fight it though. If nothing else, it's useful information for me as someone pursuing a career in law.

Doesn't matter who was driving the car. The person who owns the car gets the ticket in the mail.

It doesn't register on your drivers licence, its like a parking ticket.

yeah I did but I wasn't driving my car my DH was!! It doesn't matter he was driving and but i got the ticket. It was easy I just paid it.

ALSO my dad got a ticket AT THE SAME LIGHT a WEEK LATER!!

The only thing that actually is bothering me is that when I reviewed the video, she really was in the wrong. While it's classified as a rolling stop because she did use the brakes, really she made a right turn on red like it was a green light and more or less blew through the light. It's almost like she just touched the brake pedal barely to feel like she was kind of following the law. I'm reminded why I prefer to be the driver whenever I'm in a car to the point that I drive myself sometimes to events when I could have carpooled because I just don't trust the driving of people my age.

It's really not that hard to follow the law and use common sense to be safe. Although, I'll admit that I am a bit obsessed with safety and maybe take it a little too far.

(ie: I have seatbelt cutters placed within reach of all of the seats in my car, which also have glass breakers on them [Benchmade ERT-1 units], secondary seatbelt cutters attached to each seatbelt in the car [Benchmade Rescue Hook model 7's in the front and model 5's in the back]. About a dozen safety flares and collapsible cones in the trunk along with a full first aid kit that I put together myself that has not only the standard stuff, but also things like QuikClot packs and a pulse oximeter and some other more high-end items. Two empty emergency gasoline cans. A battery operated jump starter. Several high-end and high-powered LED flashlights [Surefire] in the car with spare batteries in a waterproof heat resistant container plus emergency glowsticks just in case.... a safety whistle, and lastly a Yaesu FT-8900 50 watt quad band radio tranceiver with a high end antenna for maximum signal strength). Actually, there's probably more that I'm forgetting, but you get the idea. I have an obsession with safety.

I want to help her because she really can't afford the fine because she can't find employment, but seeing the video made me realize why her last two cars were totaled before she had even paid off the financing.

I on the other hand am one of those drivers that pisses everybody off behind me because I'm like a boyscout when it comes to the driving laws. I'm not saying I've never gotten a ticket, but I honestly put a lot of effort into trying to be the safest driver possible. I'm actually going to take professional driving lessons when I go back up north so that I can deal with icey road conditions like a pro.

I know... I know.... I'm eccentric. Nobody is perfect.

There was a lot of trouble with the cameras in Duncanville, TX, when they were first installed. It turns out that if you stop behind the stop line before proceeding to make your turn, you're OK.

Remind her that the law is called the "Right turn on red after stop law."

But if you seriously want help, check out these people:

National Motorists Association

I know one of the former lobbyists for this group, the National Motorists Association. She was almost entirely responsible for the the NMSL, the national 55 mph speed limit.

Hey, maybe you'd know the answer to this. I've always been under the impression that the 55 mph limit was created during wartime when there was a gasoline shortage and it was decided that 55 mph was the speed that you could get the best mileage with.

My family disagrees with me and claims that it was just arbitrarily set and that you'd get better mileage if you went slower, like 25 mph, which doesn't make sense to me because fuel efficiency is more about finding an equilibrium between RPM and MPH if I'm not mistaken. They seem to think that RPM and MPH correspond with almost a 1:1 ratio, which anybody who pays attention to their dashboard would know isn't the case.

You're a professional driver right? Maybe you'd know the answer to this.

During WWII, there was a national 35 mph speed limit.

But the NMSL was established in 1974, in response to the Arab oil embargo. It just hung on for another 20 years after that.

The most economical speed for fuel use is about 45 mph. But fuel use isn't the only concern. If we lowered the national speed limit to 45, everything at your store would go up in price, and you'd have to add about 25% more trucks to the national traffic system.

Over here it's only a photo of the number plate, not the driver since it's irrelevant who was driving.

I don't mind the red light, speeding cameras or radars. If your not speeding or running lights they won't fine you, or at least listen to the radio or look in the paper for the days radar locations

Originally Posted by mrblanche

During WWII, there was a national 35 mph speed limit.

But the NMSL was established in 1974, in response to the Arab oil embargo. It just hung on for another 20 years after that.

The most economical speed for fuel use is about 45 mph. But fuel use isn't the only concern. If we lowered the national speed limit to 45, everything at your store would go up in price, and you'd have to add about 25% more trucks to the national traffic system.

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Interesting. So I really was wrong all this time and my family was closer to the correct answer than me.

I wonder where I got the information that led to me believing that for years. Must have been a bad source whatever it was.

I've always been taught that the most eficient speed for gas is where the middle of your speedometer is- for my car that's 85 mph.
Everyone in my family tries to drive at that speed too, because that's their impression .

I think you can be safe without following everything strictly. Like for example, the girl who got the ticket could have made sure with 100% certainty there were no cars coming before she turned without stopping at the red light. IMO the only thing that can teach you safety on the road is experience.

Lawguy I am curious- if you were the only car on a small road waiting 10 minutes at a red light, while not a single car passed- would you run the light??
Just wondering
As for me, I'd probably run the light after 5 minutes. Of course provided that there is enough visibility to be sure there aren't any cars coming in either direction- no major curves, etc.

Lawguy I am curious- if you were the only car on a small road waiting 10 minutes at a red light, while not a single car passed- would you run the light??

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been there, done that (multiple times I think actually). Yes I waited. That's just how I am. I'm very strict about following the law, even when I don't like it. It's a good quality should I ever want to be a g-man. lol

Sure, the chances of a car popping up all of a sudden is next to 0, but it's more about principle to me. Most driving laws, with the exception of those designed for revenue collection, are there to keep us safe. If everybody follows them, we'd be much safer. The problem is when people start thinking that it's ok to bend them or break them here and there as they see fit. That defeats the purpose of the laws and decreases the safety of drivers around them. When we share the roads, we're responsible for not only keeping ourselves safe, but trying our best to not endanger those around us. Whether people realize it or not, disregard of the driving laws endangers those around them. Especially, when doing so starts to become a habit.

Experience on the road helps teach you to be a safe driver... but memorizing page to page and word for word the driving manual required to get a license also helps you be a safe driver. Rules are important.

A lot of people feel the same way as you ut0pia. You're not by any stretch alone. The law is just one thing I'm very strict about, not just about driving laws either.

Lawguy, IMO I would let her pay her ticket - only by being responsible for her mistakes she might grow up and not total yet another car... By taking her out of this situation, IMO you are just enabling her bad habits, and getting her ready to the next one. At least if she pays this one she might be a little more careful next time around. Yes, mistakes with cars cost money, and with this girl it can cost much more.
She is unemployed, so what? One more reason to be very careful!
I am unemployed too, and EXTREMELY careful with that type of stuff - on the top of my normal careful way already.

Taking people out of their responsibilities when they make mistakes like this, especially when it happens over and over again, does no good.

Just my two cents.

Originally Posted by ut0pia

I've always been taught that the most eficient speed for gas is where the middle of your speedometer is- for my car that's 85 mph.
Everyone in my family tries to drive at that speed too, because that's their impression

.

I think you can be safe without following everything strictly. Like for example, the girl who got the ticket could have made sure with 100% certainty there were no cars coming before she turned without stopping at the red light. IMO the only thing that can teach you safety on the road is experience.

Lawguy I am curious- if you were the only car on a small road waiting 10 minutes at a red light, while not a single car passed- would you run the light??
Just wondering

As for me, I'd probably run the light after 5 minutes. Of course provided that there is enough visibility to be sure there aren't any cars coming in either direction- no major curves, etc.

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Funny story...

I'm leaving a bar about 2:30am (I had nothing to drink, just hung out w/ friends) and get to this red light. I'm the only car around. I'm waiting and waiting when I decide to just go. As soon as I started to move, the blue and reds come on! was just waiting for someone to go through!! I fought it and won, either by dropping it or the cop not showing up. This was in the early 90s. Cop must have been just fresh out of the academy...

Originally Posted by carolinalima

Lawguy, IMO I would let her pay her ticket - only by being responsible for her mistakes she might grow up and not total yet another car... By taking her out of this situation, IMO you are just enabling her bad habits, and getting her ready to the next one. At least if she pays this one she might be a little more careful next time around. Yes, mistakes with cars cost money, and with this girl it can cost much more.
She is unemployed, so what? One more reason to be very careful!
I am unemployed too, and EXTREMELY careful with that type of stuff - on the top of my normal careful way already.

Taking people out of their responsibilities when they make mistakes like this, especially when it happens over and over again, does no good.

Just my two cents.

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Carlolinalima - to be honest I have no rebuttal. Your two cents are sound and to be honest, I've helped bail her out of situations like this in the past several times. Not necessarily red light cameras, but other things (nothing criminal fortunately). I am enabling her unfortunately. I guess I do it because I've been close friends with her for 23 years now, since we were 4. It probably is time I let her learn a lesson the hard way. I still feel bad about it though.