What to Feed My Four? I'm Clueless!! (long)

bunnelina · Jan 15, 2010

Hi there,

I've been trying to figure out what healthy dry and canned foods to feed my two seniors and two kittens but, although I've read articles here and elsewhere, I'm still confused about where to start. I know I'm not feeding them an optimum diet. I am ready to make changes.

My vet believes all cat food is about the same ("balanced diet") and recommends little besides Science Diet. She is against raw diets because the cats she sees don't do well on them.

After years of feeding almost nothing but Science Diet Light kibble, we switched to Fancy Feast dry and canned because the fussy, ill one will eat it. So we're feeding everyone Fancy Feast and Science Diet Kitten Chow.

The 4 diners:

* A 14-year-old Persian with no known health issues, normal weight.

* A bony, 15-year-old Persian with IBD and CRF. We were advised to offer her any brand she'd eat and she settled on Fancy Feast. Her IBD is under control with prednisolone; her kidney levels have improved recently. We give her potassium and a tiny bit of appetite stimulant.

* Two 6-month-old kittens with good appetites but little interest in kitten chow (they hate Royal Canin, love Purina. I compromised with Science Diet).

Can anyone please suggest some premium dry and canned foods that everyone will benefit from? Does anyone know of CRF foods that might appeal to the Persian, who prefers licking gravy to chewing? The kittens will steal it....

Felidae kibble and Science Diet cans are ignored. We are in Boston so we have access to a lot of major brands.

I know the babies should be eating kitten food but they disagree. They go right under the cats' noses to get to their bowls and the elders let them.

I'm sorry to be clueless, but I'm overwhelmed by the options. I know there are many here who are skilled in cat nutrition and I hope you can get us started on a better path. Here we are, working to eat healthier food ourselves â€” and it's driving me crazy that we're feeding our cats what seems to be vet-approved junk.

Many thanks!

furryfriends50 · Jan 15, 2010

I'd say try one of the "95%" wet foods...EVO, Instinct, By Nature, etc.

Add phosphorus binders to the CRF cats food if you do use a canned like EVO. You can make canned food soup fairly easily out of pate foods so that it is just gravy.

Kibble: especially try avoid it for your CRF cat. The others I'd say if you must feed dry try a grain free for the kittens and a grain in for the senior.

If you can do raw I'd say go for it just make sure it is properly balanced. Blood tests for raw fed cats can be off - the tests are based off of cats fed commercial foods so the numbers are going to be differant with a cat fed the most natural diet. Plus normally cats just go to the vet when they are sick...so they don't see all the extremely healthy raw fed cats. If you educate yourself about raw I see absolutly no issue feeding it (which you don't know if the other owners knew how to make raw balanced).

swoshum · Jan 15, 2010

I would really not listen to your vet on this matter, sadly, I probably know more about nutrition than your vet does (and even more sadly, that's not an exaggeration). I know of several cats on raw who are all doing beautifully on it. I have a 15 year old cat in renal failure and she has been absolutely thriving since she's switched to a total raw diet. My two kittens have been on raw since the beginning and their coats, teeth, stools are absolutely perfect. The great thing about raw is that not only is it completely natural and cheaper than any so-called premium kibble or canned food on the market, it's also better than them and will prevent if not cure any health problems your cats have.

furryfriends50 · Jan 15, 2010

Originally Posted by swoshum

I would really not listen to your vet on this matter, sadly, I probably know more about nutrition than your vet does (and even more sadly, that's not an exaggeration). I know of several cats on raw who are all doing beautifully on it. I have a 15 year old cat in renal failure and she has been absolutely thriving since she's switched to a total raw diet. My two kittens have been on raw since the beginning and their coats, teeth, stools are absolutely perfect. The great thing about raw is that not only is it completely natural and cheaper than any so-called premium kibble or canned food on the market, it's also better than them and will prevent if not cure any health problems your cats have.

I have 16 cats on full time raw, 2 on full timed canned. Also 10 or so that come and go as the please and I will only see once a week or even once a month. They probably eat a lot of raw...mice, rabbits, rats, etc. All of the above are barn cats.

Two house cats: Milo gets all canned, raw to chew on. He will not swallow raw meat but will chew it a lot so I just do that for the dental benifit. He also has CRF...blaimed on all those years of eating dry.

Mikey gets all canned. Anything from fancy feast too 95% wet foods. Still working on transitioning to raw for him, he can't seem to get the jaw strength needed after several years of eating all dry...

Milo and Mikey will very rarely get a meal of dry food...Milo gets it if he decides he will not eat canned for that feeding (he needs the calories that he can get being a CRF cat). Mikey I'm just trying to slowly finish off the bag of EVO I have.

This is my first winter that I have fed raw. Typically almost all the barn cats got sick sometime through the winter during November to December. This year two got the sniffles during the coldest part of the winter. Chester did...I forget the other.

bunnelina · Jan 16, 2010

Originally Posted by furryfriends50

I'd say try one of the "95%" wet foods...EVO, Instinct, By Nature, etc.

Thank you very much! Those brands are all available around here and I will very shortly be visiting one of local groomers that carries all three. I'll begin with small amounts of each and see how it goes. I know there will be a transition period where we might be mixing the new food with Fancy Feast. But since none of the cats appears to have food allergies or reactions now, here's hoping it won't be problematic. They are all willing to try new things and the kittens will eat almost anything. The kittens should be a breeze.

Originally Posted by swoshum

I would really not listen to your vet on this matter, sadly, I probably know more about nutrition than your vet does (and even more sadly, that's not an exaggeration). I know of several cats on raw who are all doing beautifully on it. I have a 15 year old cat in renal failure and she has been absolutely thriving since she's switched to a total raw diet. My two kittens have been on raw since the beginning and their coats, teeth, stools are absolutely perfect. The great thing about raw is that not only is it completely natural and cheaper than any so-called premium kibble or canned food on the market, it's also better than them and will prevent if not cure any health problems your cats have.

Thank you for sharing your insights on raw food. Your cats are really lucky to have you!!! I've read Auntie Crazy's detailed instructions (http://www.feline-nutrition.org/) about how to prepare it, and feel I'm not equipped or skilled enough to handle it. I have a tiny, city-apt. kitchen (i.e., closet) with a freezer the size of a large breadbox. I'm nervous about handling meat and poultry safely. I also can't trust myself to ensure that the food was nutritionally balanced and I can't store a lot of ingredients in quantity.

If there are such things as prepared raw foods that wouldn't entirely fill my freezer, I'd appreciate hearing about any you recommend. Obviously, I would love to give my cats the benefits of raw without the risks from my incompetence.

I should have written that I have much respect for my vet's knowledge, otherwise â€” she's experienced, caring, observant, thorough, up to date. She and her colleagues say they just don't see a difference between cats on commercial food and cats on "premium" diets in their all-cat practice. And they have seen cats who got sick from a raw diet (no doubt unbalanced or contaminated food), which accounts for her opinion.

But it's common sense: "garbage in, garbage out." The better the food, the healthier the cat. Any further recommendations and advice are very, very welcome!

zoeysmom · Jan 16, 2010

A suggestion for your cat who likes to lick and not chew, regardless of what food you end up with. I had a hard time getting my cats to eat a significant amount of wet food. They would eat a few bites and then walk away and never come back. I started putting their food (pate style) in my blender (Magic Bullet) with a bit of warm water and making it the consistency of a thick cream soup. They could just lap it up and took in a lot more of it with the added benefit of additional water intake.

I have tried mixing it with a fork instead of the blender and it didn't go over nearly as well.

swoshum · Jan 16, 2010

Originally Posted by Bunnelina

Thank you for sharing your insights on raw food. Your cats are really lucky to have you!!! I've read Auntie Crazy's detailed instructions (http://www.feline-nutrition.org/) about how to prepare it, and feel I'm not equipped or skilled enough to handle it. I have a tiny, city-apt. kitchen (i.e., closet) with a freezer the size of a large breadbox. I'm nervous about handling meat and poultry safely. I also can't trust myself to ensure that the food was nutritionally balanced and I can't store a lot of ingredients in quantity.

Well there's your problem, you're reading the wrong information! There are many misinformed people out there who think that cats need to have pre-prepared ground food in order to have a healthy, balanced diet. That is simply false information. Try reading this page instead: http://www.rawfedcats.org/

The only prep it takes to feed my cats is to hand them a chicken drumstick once a day. They take care of the rest! Doesn't sound too hard does it? They get organ meat once or twice a week (just throw them a chicken liver or two). There you go, their diet is balanced! Wasn't that easy?

If you're worried about salmonella, don't be! Tons of people prepare meat in their home every day and they have no issues with bacteria. Same for me. I'm a vegetarian but all of my pets (2 dogs and 3 cats) are on raw food and we never have any trouble with bacteria. I just wash my hands after handling the meat like any normal human being would. If any meat gets on the counters, I wipe it off with a rag. Bacteria really isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be, especially if you do common sense things like washing your hands.

sharky · Jan 16, 2010

Originally Posted by swoshum

I would really not listen to your vet on this matter, sadly, I probably know more about nutrition than your vet does (and even more sadly, that's not an exaggeration). I know of several cats on raw who are all doing beautifully on it. I have a 15 year old cat in renal failure and she has been absolutely thriving since she's switched to a total raw diet. My two kittens have been on raw since the beginning and their coats, teeth, stools are absolutely perfect. The great thing about raw is that not only is it completely natural and cheaper than any so-called premium kibble or canned food on the market, it's also better than them and will prevent if not cure any health problems your cats have.

Originally Posted by swoshum

Well there's your problem, you're reading the wrong information! There are many misinformed people out there who think that cats need to have pre-prepared ground food in order to have a healthy, balanced diet. That is simply false information. Try reading this page instead: http://www.rawfedcats.org/

The only prep it takes to feed my cats is to hand them a chicken drumstick once a day. They take care of the rest! Doesn't sound too hard does it? They get organ meat once or twice a week (just throw them a chicken liver or two). There you go, their diet is balanced! Wasn't that easy?

If you're worried about salmonella, don't be! Tons of people prepare meat in their home every day and they have no issues with bacteria. Same for me. I'm a vegetarian but all of my pets (2 dogs and 3 cats) are on raw food and we never have any trouble with bacteria. I just wash my hands after handling the meat like any normal human being would. If any meat gets on the counters, I wipe it off with a rag. Bacteria really isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be, especially if you do common sense things like washing your hands.

No online advice can replace direct veterinary intervention. If you suspect that your cat may be ill, please contact your vet immediately. You are welcome to look for advice in the health forum while waiting for that appointment, but never delay proper veterinary care waiting for Internet advice. Remember that cats, and especially kittens, are very adept in keeping pain to themselves and delaying treatment may cause irreversible damage.

Information given by posters here are not based on your pet’s full history, and are by people who most likely do not have a degree in veterinary medicine. There are many home remedies, as well as approved veterinary treatments for cat health problems that may work for one cat, but be lethal for another cat. Please discuss any potential treatments with your vet first to ensure you are treating the right problem, and not potentially making it worse.

Shockingly those that claim to know more than your vet do NOT have DVMs or nutrition degrees... Most vets do not have a lot of schooling in nutrition but they do KNOW your cats and their issues...

Remember on the web ANYONE can say ANYTHING

... check the sources and research

sharky · Jan 16, 2010

Due to the issues in the house I personally would be looking for a holistic minded vet . OR discussing your ideas with your vet as to what you want and what he/ she thinks may work.

bunnelina · Jan 16, 2010

Originally Posted by sharky

Due to the issues in the house I personally would be looking for a holistic minded vet . OR discussing your ideas with your vet as to what you want and what he/ she thinks may work.

There are no holistic vets in the city of Boston! There are some about an hour away; our all-cat vet hospital is less than 10 minutes away and we have trusted our vet for everything except nutrition advice for than a decade. She is aware of raw diets and premium foods but says all "nutritionally balanced" foods are fine.

sharky · Jan 16, 2010

Originally Posted by Bunnelina

There are no holistic vets in the city of Boston! There are some about an hour away; our all-cat vet hospital is less than 10 minutes away and we have trusted our vet for everything except nutrition advice for than a decade. She is aware of raw diets and premium foods but says all "nutritionally balanced" foods are fine.

That is the type of vet I would take in some of the "research" you have read ... Often just that will get these types of vets to think outside their boxes ...WOW none in Boston that is a shock... My whole county YES county has about 100000 people and we have 3 holistic vets ...

bunnelina · Jan 16, 2010

Originally Posted by sharky

That is the type of vet I would take in some of the "research" you have read ... Often just that will get these types of vets to think outside their boxes ...WOW none in Boston that is a shock... My whole county YES county has about 100000 people and we have 3 holistic vets ...

Yes, I discovered this recently, as I was trying to figure out our ringworm plan and was afraid of the oral meds (which turned out okay, lucky for us). The few holistic vets are buried deep in the suburbs, with long waits for first appts. Given Boston traffic and that some of our cats hate the car, we stick with our vet. Even Angell Memorial Animal Hospital, which is the size of a small "human" hospital, has no vets with any holistic/homeopathic background. Floors me.

It's a great idea to give material to our vet. She'll pay attention, and she's open to new ideas. Can you please suggest any links to materials you recommend? Thanks!!!

sharky · Jan 16, 2010

what info would you like? many on here are FAR better at links than I am

... I still rely heavy on books and magazines( ie vet journals are IMHO a mag)

bunnelina · Jan 16, 2010

If you can easily provide a link to a good vet journal article that I can access and pass on to her (or a book I can buy), it might have enough credibility to get her attention. I'd be very interested to read it, too. Thank you!

It's not like we don't discuss food at almost every visit. She just doesn't distinguish between store and premium brands. She knows her prescription brands, but we either don't need those or our CRF/IBD cat won't touch 'em.

She has tried everything for her own finicky CRF cat and had success with those new Fancy Feast "primavera" varieties. Our CRF cat licked some gravy. Getting any food into her is an accomplishment.

swoshum · Jan 16, 2010

Originally Posted by sharky

No online advice can replace direct veterinary intervention. If you suspect that your cat may be ill, please contact your vet immediately. You are welcome to look for advice in the health forum while waiting for that appointment, but never delay proper veterinary care waiting for Internet advice. Remember that cats, and especially kittens, are very adept in keeping pain to themselves and delaying treatment may cause irreversible damage.

I wasn't telling her to ignore her cats if they seemed ill. I told her that raw is the best diet in the world for a CRF cat (or any cat for that matter) if you can get them to eat it. It's also ideal for any cat with diabetes (it will almost guarantee your cat will never develop diabetes unless they're genetically prone to it, actually), allergies, dental issues, and IBD to name a few.

Originally Posted by sharky

Shockingly those that claim to know more than your vet do NOT have DVMs or nutrition degrees... Most vets do not have a lot of schooling in nutrition but they do KNOW your cats and their issues...

Yeah, exactly. They don't know a lot about nutrition. They took one nutrition class in their entire four years at vet school and it covered the basic nutritional necessities for all species of animals they might be seeing (so canine, feline, equine, bovine, reptile, rodent, birds, etc) and usually it is sponsored or taught by someone from one of the big pet food companies (SD, Iams/Euk, Purina, RC).

And sadly, most of the veterinary nutritionist specialty programs are taught in a similar manner with more of a focus on kibble than natural diets because those are the studies that have the most money behind them because those are the diets that have the most money to gain from your vet pushing them on you and endorsing them.

I've out-argued two veterinarians on animal nutrition and got one of them to switch his dogs off of SD after talking to me. The vet I currently work for endorses the raw diet and often defers to me for food recommendations to our clients for their cats. And most of those clients actually listen to me and come back raving about how wonderfully the food has worked out for their cats. So while you may or may not believe me, at least I know my knowledge and advice is benefitting some people out there.

Originally Posted by sharky

Remember on the web ANYONE can say ANYTHING

... check the sources and research

I agree 100% on that. If it comes from a dog food company, I look at the motivation behind that study. Do they really have my pet's best interest in mind or do they have their wallets' best interests in mind? If the food has any sort of corn, wheat, soy, or gluten in it, the answer is very clear to me and I consider their "research" to be discredited. If the "research" tells me to grind up my cat's food before feeding it to them when they have perfectly good grinders (aka: teeth) built in, I consider this flawed information or incomplete research. That webpage I posted is the best one on raw feeding for cats I have found so far. It's also the easiest to read and makes the most sense. Sorry if that seems inaccurate to you, but it makes sense to me.

furryfriends50 · Jan 16, 2010

Originally Posted by Bunnelina

If you can easily provide a link to a good vet journal article that I can access and pass on to her (or a book I can buy), it might have enough credibility to get her attention. I'd be very interested to read it, too. Thank you!

It's not like we don't discuss food at almost every visit. She just doesn't distinguish between store and premium brands. She knows her prescription brands, but we either don't need those or our CRF/IBD cat won't touch 'em.

She has tried everything for her own finicky CRF cat and had success with those new Fancy Feast "primavera" varieties. Our CRF cat licked some gravy. Getting any food into her is an accomplishment.

Here is a list of books and websites:

www.fnes.org
http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library
http://catinfo.org/
http://www.rawfedcats.org/
http://rawfed.com/myths/cats.html
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.catnutrition.org/index.php
http://yourdiabeticcat.com/

Your Cat: Simple New Secrets to a Longer, Stronger Life.
By Elizabeth M. Hodgkins, DVM, Esq.

Raising Cats Naturally: How to Care for Your Cat the Way Nature Intended
By Michelle T. Bernard

Not Fit for a Dog! The Truth About Manufactured Dog and Cat Food
By Michael W. Fox, B. Vet Med., Ph.D., D.Sc., M.R.C.V.S., Elizabeth Hodgkins, D.V.M., and Marion E. Smart, D.V.M., Ph.D.

Natural Nutrition for Cats, The Path to Purr-fect Health
By Kymythy R. Schultze, C.N., C.N.C.

sharky · Jan 16, 2010

Originally Posted by furryfriends50

Here is a list of books and websites:

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=libraryVERY good reading
http://catinfo.org/Useful
http://www.catnutrition.org/index.phpUseful
http://yourdiabeticcat.com/Useful

Your Cat: Simple New Secrets to a Longer, Stronger Life.
By Elizabeth M. Hodgkins, DVM, Esq.

Raising Cats Naturally: How to Care for Your Cat the Way Nature Intended
By Michelle T. Bernard

Not Fit for a Dog! The Truth About Manufactured Dog and Cat Food
By Michael W. Fox, B. Vet Med., Ph.D., D.Sc., M.R.C.V.S., Elizabeth Hodgkins, D.V.M., and Marion E. Smart, D.V.M., Ph.D.

Natural Nutrition for Cats, The Path to Purr-fect Health
By Kymythy R. Schultze, C.N., C.N.C.

I have read all of those and NONE are pulled off my shelf

Four Paws Five Directions is the one I pull off all the time for a BALANCED view of natural animal care

sharky · Jan 16, 2010

Originally Posted by swoshum

I wasn't telling her to ignore her cats if they seemed ill. I told her that raw is the best diet in the world for a CRF cat (or any cat for that matter) if you can get them to eat it. It's also ideal for any cat with diabetes (it will almost guarantee your cat will never develop diabetes unless they're genetically prone to it, actually), allergies, dental issues, and IBD to name a few.

Yeah, exactly. They don't know a lot about nutrition. They took one nutrition class in their entire four years at vet school and it covered the basic nutritional necessities for all species of animals they might be seeing (so canine, feline, equine, bovine, reptile, rodent, birds, etc) and usually it is sponsored or taught by someone from one of the big pet food companies (SD, Iams/Euk, Purina, RC).

And sadly, most of the veterinary nutritionist specialty programs are taught in a similar manner with more of a focus on kibble than natural diets because those are the studies that have the most money behind them because those are the diets that have the most money to gain from your vet pushing them on you and endorsing them.

I've out-argued two veterinarians on animal nutrition and got one of them to switch his dogs off of SD after talking to me. The vet I currently work for endorses the raw diet and often defers to me for food recommendations to our clients for their cats. And most of those clients actually listen to me and come back raving about how wonderfully the food has worked out for their cats. So while you may or may not believe me, at least I know my knowledge and advice is benefitting some people out there.

I agree 100% on that. If it comes from a dog food company, I look at the motivation behind that study. Do they really have my pet's best interest in mind or do they have their wallets' best interests in mind? If the food has any sort of corn, wheat, soy, or gluten in it, the answer is very clear to me and I consider their "research" to be discredited. If the "research" tells me to grind up my cat's food before feeding it to them when they have perfectly good grinders (aka: teeth) built in, I consider this flawed information or incomplete research. That webpage I posted is the best one on raw feeding for cats I have found so far. It's also the easiest to read and makes the most sense. Sorry if that seems inaccurate to you, but it makes sense to me.

Based on your responses I hope your vets MALPRACTICE insurance is up to date ... LOL I can say the same about folks being thankful for my help

Most of your info is half correct and I can tell from what sources you got most of it

...

Have I had animals that I feed raw ... YES... two have chronic illness and through working with my vet both made it longer than expected... DO I recommend RAW for anyone NOT working with a vet NO .... DO I recommend it for cats with issues . NO ... WHY I am not a vet and am responsible enough not to think I know more about someones cat via the internet than a vet who at minimum went to school six years ( four of them vet school)

....

The web site you gave does NOT SHOW who wrote it ?? was it you? Me ? the man in the moon?

Out arguing a conventional vet on nutrition is no big feet I have done many clinics full at this pt

...

momofmany · Jan 16, 2010

The bottom line with working with vets on diets is this. While most vets are clearly not trained in good nutrician, they do understand cat health. And we depend on our vets to administer full health care to our kids. If you are fighting with your vet about what to feed your cat, and that vet is unwilling to do research on it, then find another vet. But I would NOT go against what my vet wanted me to do. What happens if there is a health issue and the first question asked is "what are they eating?". Do you want to argue with your vet at the point of illness?

Is raw food the best option out there? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I would lean towards the latter because of the lack of consistent information available on the topic. Unless I had a vet behind me, and studied the topic somewhere other than the Internet, I wouldn't make an attempt to do it. I do know the background of some of the people that claim to be experts on the raw food forums and I wouldn't trust the life of my cats with their advice. Trust the source of information first and foremost as you experiment with diets.

And remind yourself that every cat is different and each may need their own food. 10 cats here and we have a multitude of diets going on. And the most interesting diet is my 14 year old on dry dog food - his 12 year auto-immune disease finally went into remission after I allowed him to eat what he wanted all along. Would I recommend this diet to anyone because it worked for me? No way.

bunnelina · Jan 17, 2010

Thank you everyone, for your caring and thoughtful responses.

I've picked up a quantity of samples of various dry and canned premium foods: Evo, Innova, Instinct, Wellness, California Natural, Natural Balance, and Indigo Moon, plus a Primal frozen raw sampler. I'm going to weed out those that would adversely affect my CRF cat, and see what they all like and will eat.

I've been learning that going 100% grain-free is not necessarily a good thing, so I'm learning towards foods with rice.

Very curious to see their reactions to the raw food tonight! I do feel that it's a mistake to feed cats just ONE food, year in, year out (as we stupidly did with Science Diet light), so I'm aiming for a healthier variety: probably a mix of kibble, (mostly) cans, some raw, and occasional roast chicken and turkey. If they'd eat it.

Since we switched from feeding almost nothing but SD Kibble last summer, they've all gotten used to finding new things in their bowls. I hope they'll settle on a few varieties that are healthy for them and then I'll present my "findings" to my vet so she can weigh in.

What to Feed My Four? I'm Clueless!! (long)

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