Why Wet Food and Why Grain Free Dry?

apesusi · Jan 6, 2010

Can someone share why I should be feeding wet all the time? I've had cats all my life (growing up) and we've never done wet food.

And I've seen mention about grain free dry food. Why grain free, and what brands are grain free?

We have 3 cats now. 1 is a little over a year and 2 are 5 months. So we still need a kitten formula.

Anyone interested in enlightening me on these topics?

white cat lover · Jan 6, 2010

Wet food is closer to their natural diet. Cats also often do not intake enough water, so wet food helps increase water intake. I believe they are less likely to develop issues like Urinary Issues or Kidney issues when eating wet food.

Cats are carnivores, they do not need all kinds of grains in their diet. Some cats do fine on grain free foods, some don't. I honestly don't know if grain frees qualify as all lifestages, or if they are OK for kittens or not. Here is a link to some grain free brands.

carolina · Jan 6, 2010

Originally Posted by white cat lover

Wet food is closer to their natural diet. Cats also often do not intake enough water, so wet food helps increase water intake. I believe they are less likely to develop issues like Urinary Issues or Kidney issues when eating wet food.

Cats are carnivores, they do not need all kinds of grains in their diet. Some cats do fine on grain free foods, some don't. I honestly don't know if grain frees qualify as all lifestages, or if they are OK for kittens or not. Here is a link to some grain free brands.

Nat is right....
Be ready to hear all sort of different opinions of this matter. In the end, the right diet will be the one who works for you and your cat.
It can be the best food in the world, but if your cat doesn't eat, or has problems with it, it does not good, does it?
So, listen to your cat, and see what works for you too...
Research water fountains - that helps with water intake.
Some grains are better than others - I personally prefer to not feed any... (I feed a grain free, high protein (50%), low carb diet (10%), but my cats are young - the oldest is 3 yrs old) But I do agree with Nat, and as such I am not sure if I am going to be doing the same when my cats become seniors... I will give what they need then - and if they do better with grains at the time, they will eat grains

Besides that, I don't feed any by-products, or artificial flavors, colors...
Pet food is constantly evolving, so... keep watching!

addiebee · Jan 6, 2010

You can also PM sharky - she knows TONS about this.
In addition to what others have said... wet food can decrease the cat's caloric load and still make them feel full.... this can help them from becoming obese or even a little bit overweight.

That's not a big issue with kittens... their food shouldn't be limited,especially if they are HUNGRY. But a dry-only diet has been linked to kidney disease, UTI problems and the onset of feline diabetes ...due to dehydration, too many carbs, weight gain, etc.

Do a google search about dry food and cat illness. There are many vets who are getting on this bandwagon.

Grain free is also what carolina and white cat lover said - cats are carnivores ... as I understand it... their bodies can utilize some of the grain proteins ... but it is not the best protein source for them. In some cases cats cannot tolerate grains and can trigger allergic reactions and GI/Colon issues.

My vet thinks that may be the issue in part with one of my cats so she asked me to go grain free. She really wanted me to put this cat on a limited ingredient diet but in my household it would be impossible to manage.

ETA- As I said in your other post about BB V. Kirkland.. some of these foods indicate they are for all life stages.. which means from kitten to adult. Don't know if that includes seniors, since as cats age (us, too) ability to digest things changes.

auntie crazy · Jan 6, 2010

Here's a website that goes into great detail why wet is healthy and dry isn't: catinfo.org. Another site by a different vet who works with diabetic cats is yourdiabeticcat.com. In addition to the searches previously mentioned, you can google "the dangers of dry foods".

But, really, it all boils down to three things: water intake, protein source and carb content.

Cats are descended from desert animals who acquired all the water they needed to survive through the bodies of the animals they ate; therefore, they do not have a strong "thirst" drive. Even when they're dehydrated (and cats on kibble usually are), they have no instinct that tells 'em "go drink!". As we know from dealing with dehydration in people, being chronically dehydrated can wreak havoc on a body's organs.

Cats, unlike dogs, are obligate carnivores - they evolved to get all their energy needs from meat-based protein and derive little, if any, benefit from plant-based protein sources. Many, many commercially-prepared pet-food products - wet and dry, but especially dry - use plant-based protein to plump up their "protein analysis" numbers, since plants are a heck-of-lot cheaper than real meat. (This, in fact, was the basis for the massive 2007 pet food poisoning. Darn near every pet food maker uses wheat gluten in their products and when the Chinese manufacturers spiked their wheat gluten with melamine to increase the protein test results, thousands of cats paid the price.)

Finally, since cats evolved to get their energy from protein, they (unlike people) have no biological need for carbs. They can't get any energy from them and the digestive efforts of processing the carbs in daily helpings of grainy, starchy, fruit and vegetable-laden kibble causes stress on their bodies. When the carbs are finally processed, they are converted to fat. Thus, you have nearly epidemic proportions of obesity, IBD, diabetes, urinary tract problems, and a whole host of other issues.

The pet food industry is aware of this and has made some changes. Canned foods have come a long way and raw foods are becoming more mainstream. Kibble is being sold with claims of high protein and low carbs and comments like:

"Nature's Variety Dry Kibble Diets provide biologically appropriate nutrition that can facilitate health, optimum body weight, and longer pet life. Dry kibble diets containing more high quality meat protein and fewer carbohydrates can aid in reducing the incidence of stomach bloat, Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD), some urinary tract crystals, allergies, and other diseases." (NV Instinct).

Even the pet food companies recognize the damage biologically inappropriate foods cause!

However, as nice as the claims for these new grain-free kibble formulas are, cats still require their daily water intake in their food, and no dry can provide that. More importantly, 'though the protein (at least in this example) approaches the 55% DMB that would be found in a mouse (for instance), it still contains 17% DMB carbs. That's over five times the amount found in cat's natural diet. More than enough to cause an issue. (Mice are about 3% DMB carbs.)

You will see a huge range of opinions on this. And that's ok.

Life would be boring indeed if we all thought the same, wouldn't it? We all have to review the data and then come to our own decisions, based on our own resources, comfort level and, of course!, cat's preferences.

(On a side note, kittens do require more food than adults per ounce of body weight, but they don't require different foods - that's a PFI marketing ploy. Cats in the wild don't go hunting specially labeled birds and mice for their kittens, they feed 'em the same thing they eat.

)

carolina · Jan 6, 2010

There are dry foods and dry foods out there. Some are high in carbs, some are not. Some have grain, some don't.
As far as cats being descendants from wild desert animals? Sure - but they are no longer in the desert, there has been evolution since then, and they live FAR longer than their descendant counterparts... They live far longer then outside kitties, imagine wild cats. Yes, We deal with diebetes, CRF, etc... wild or outside cats didn't, thus their diet was better.......... or they just didn't live long enough to have those diseases? They lived an average of 3-5 years before they got killed by a predator or disease, and now they are living 5-6 times as much? Maybe this is a product of natural aging? Who knows?
Speaking for my cats... They have plenty of thirst drive and know very well how to walk to their water fountain to drink water. They are very good drinkers, and never have I taken them to the vet when I was told they were dehydrated (besides when Bugsy had a severe diarrhea attack that landed him in the ER for fluids - and that BTW was with raw chicken, episode which confirmed his allergy)
Same thing with wet food... There are wet food, and wet food... Some are full of junk, grain, artificial stuff...
No food comes without risks, and the best one, again, is the one that is the best for your pet, and you.
I don't like generalizing... I don't agree for example with the statement that the worst wet food is better than the best dry.
Junk is junk in any form, and I refuse to feed it to my pets, no matter in what shape it comes, unless it is an RX, and prescribed by the vet and I have no other choice... Then yes. Otherwise...

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Here's a website that goes into great detail why wet is healthy and dry isn't: catinfo.org. Another site by a different vet who works with diabetic cats is yourdiabeticcat.com. In addition to the searches previously mentioned, you can google "the dangers of dry foods".

But, really, it all boils down to three things: water intake, protein source and carb content.

Cats are descended from desert animals who acquired all the water they needed to survive through the bodies of the animals they ate; therefore, they do not have a strong "thirst" drive. Even when they're dehydrated (and cats on kibble usually are), they have no instinct that tells 'em "go drink!". As we know from dealing with dehydration in people, being chronically dehydrated can wreak havoc on a body's organs.

Cats, unlike dogs, are obligate carnivores - they evolved to get all their energy needs from meat-based protein and derive little, if any, benefit from plant-based protein sources. Many, many commercially-prepared pet-food products - wet and dry, but especially dry - use plant-based protein to plump up their "protein analysis" numbers, since plants are a heck-of-lot cheaper than real meat. (This, in fact, was the basis for the massive 2007 pet food poisoning. Darn near every pet food maker uses wheat gluten in their products and when the Chinese manufacturers spiked their wheat gluten with melamine to increase the protein test results, thousands of cats paid the price.)

Finally, since cats evolved to get their energy from protein, they (unlike people) have no biological need for carbs. They can't get any energy from them and the digestive efforts of processing the carbs in daily helpings of grainy, starchy, fruit and vegetable-laden kibble causes stress on their bodies. When the carbs are finally processed, they are converted to fat. Thus, you have nearly epidemic proportions of obesity, IBD, diabetes, urinary tract problems, and a whole host of other issues.

The pet food industry is aware of this and has made some changes. Canned foods have come a long way and raw foods are becoming more mainstream. Kibble is being sold with claims of high protein and low carbs and comments like:

"Nature's Variety Dry Kibble Diets provide biologically appropriate nutrition that can facilitate health, optimum body weight, and longer pet life. Dry kibble diets containing more high quality meat protein and fewer carbohydrates can aid in reducing the incidence of stomach bloat, Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD), some urinary tract crystals, allergies, and other diseases." (NV Instinct).

Even the pet food companies recognize the damage biologically inappropriate foods cause!

However, as nice as the claims for these new grain-free kibble formulas are, cats still require their daily water intake in their food, and no dry can provide that. More importantly, 'though the protein (at least in this example) approaches the 55% DMB that would be found in a mouse (for instance), it still contains 17% DMB carbs. That's over five times the amount found in cat's natural diet. More than enough to cause an issue. (Mice are about 3% DMB carbs.)

You will see a huge range of opinions on this. And that's ok.

Life would be boring indeed if we all thought the same, wouldn't it? We all have to review the data and then come to our own decisions, based on our own resources, comfort level and, of course!, cat's preferences.

(On a side note, kittens do require more food than adults per ounce of body weight, but they don't require different foods - that's a PFI marketing ploy. Cats in the wild don't go hunting specially labeled birds and mice for their kittens, they feed 'em the same thing they eat.

)

sharky · Jan 6, 2010

Nat and Carolina explained the basics...

Different things work for different cats. I personally find a rotation diet works best in my house..

I am a pm away ...lol...

furryfriends50 · Jan 6, 2010

Cats have no biological need for grain, that is why grain free. They are MADE to be eating prey. Cats are so equipped to be eating prey that they catch - they haven't changed.

Teeth for tearing and eating meat, bones, and organs:

note: its upside down...

sorry for so many teeth pictures...I just have too many that I have taken and can't pick between the clear ones

Claws to catch that prey:

And pretty much the MOST amazing digestive system ever!

Quote from article in Cat Fancy March 2008

"IF you feed a cat Salmonella, it kills 98% of it before it comes out the other end. As soon as the stuff touches its mouth, a process starts."

"Nadeau is referring to an enzyme in cat saliva called lysozyme, which attacks bacteria as it enters the mouth. From there, any remaining contaminants enter the animal's extremely short and acidic digestive tract. Any pathogens surving the acidic bath have little time to latch onto before ejection"

"Between the cats natural cleansing system and its rapid metabolism, the chances of developing salmonella, toxoplasmosis and other ailments associated with raw food are slim."

As for wet food over dry: wet food is much closer to a cats natural diet. Cats don't have their own little food dehydraters in the wild. They are desert animals and their thirst drive hasn't changed. Unless a cat is drinking about twice as much water as they eat dry food the cat WILL be dehydrated. They are designed to be getting the water they need from their food and that hasn't changed.

Wet food is lower in carbs. Take for example EVO dry and Fancy Feast wet food. A high end dry vs a low end wet food. EVO has 18% carbs on a dry matter basis. Some of the flavors of fancy feast are below 10% carbs on a DMB. IF a cat actually NEEDS any carbs they would be needing 2 - 3%. There aren't any commercial foods that I know of that make that mark. However the lower you can get the better.

Wet food almost always has a higher meat content. Cats are obligate carnivores. By definition even cats are supposed to be eating prey:

Cat [kat] â€“noun
1. a small domesticated carnivore, Felis domestica or F. catus, bred in a number of varieties.
2. any of several carnivores of the family Felidae, as the lion, tiger, leopard or jaguar, etc.

car⋅ni⋅vore
[kahr-nuh-vawr,-vohr]
â€“noun
1. an animal that eats flesh.
2. a flesh-eating mammal of the order Carnivora, comprising the dogs, cats, bears, seals, and weasels.
3. an insectivorous plant.

sharky · Jan 6, 2010

nice pics furry.. can you find some side profile entire jaw as that actually shows the part s of the jaw better

furryfriends50 · Jan 6, 2010

Originally Posted by sharky

nice pics furry.. can you find some side profile entire jaw as that actually shows the part s of the jaw better

I can try take some

Those pictures are of Chester's teeth, he is the most laid back of the farm cats. I didn't get more than I did because he was sick of getting his mouth handled. I think if I tried most of the other cats I'd get my fingers bitten off

Edit: I added a few...not really good though. They are both Haddie and Chester. Haddie is the darker colored cat.

sweetpea24 · Jan 6, 2010

I know some cats can't tolerate a variety of proteins but I feed mine a different one every day - in order for them to get all the nutrients they need and also so they dont' get used to a certain flavour. This is easy to do with canned food. My one cat, Schweppie, is supposed to eat Hill's k/d because he was just diagnosed with CRF but he refuses to eat more than 2 cans of the same thing in a row. So I'm feeding him half k/d or Medi-cal reduced protein and half his regular food rotation.

Personally, if I could afford it, I'd feed both cats on canned. Raw would be the best IMO but they both won't touch it. Kibble is just processed cereal so even though my one cat prefers it, I would make him eat all canned if I could. To me, even if a kibble is grain-free, it's still processed. Pure, natural food is best and canned is the closest next to raw.

addiebee · Jan 6, 2010

FF50 - nice teeth pics. Their teeth look GOOD!!! Is that from the raw diet?

furryfriends50 · Jan 6, 2010

Originally Posted by AddieBee

FF50 - nice teeth pics. Their teeth look GOOD!!! Is that from the raw diet?

Yep

A raw diet does that too them

The pictures are of two differant cats teeth. Chester and Haddie. I was really suprised that Haddie let me handle her mouth - it typically is strictly off limits. Haddie is the brown cat, Chester the grey.

stephanietx · Jan 7, 2010

I feed my cats a bit of raw, canned, and dry. One thing I don't know if anyone's mentioned is that dry food zaps much of the water from the body creating stress on the cat's system, especially the kidneys. This can lead to kidney problems, constipation, indigestion, and a host of other health problems. Canned food isn't so harsh on the body and is much easier for the cat to digest and use the nutrients. Plus, it's much moister and easier for the body to get the liquid it needs to function properly, flush toxins, "normal" poop, proper body hydration, and etc.

One of my girls has feline herpes, so I feed her grain-free because the virus
needs an amino acid in grain to replicate - so no grain makes it harder to replicate and thus increase her health and decrease the number of flare ups she experiences.

auntie crazy · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by stephanietx

...One of my girls has feline herpes, so I feed her grain-free because the virus needs an amino acid in grain to replicate - so no grain makes it harder to replicate and thus increase her health and decrease the number of flare ups she experiences.

That is very interesting, Stephanietx, and not something I had heard before. Do you know the name of the amino acid? Do you mind sharing your source? This is pretty important information, as cats have lost their eyesight due to this virus, and I'm sure folks whose cats have it would like to know there's something more they can do to help their furry buddies - especially if they've been fighting bad flare ups for a while!

Thanks!

apesusi · Jan 7, 2010

wow! thanks for the great info everyone!

stephanietx · Jan 7, 2010

I just had to explain this to the VET this afternoon when I asked if the treat they wanted to give Hannah contained grain! It's frustrating being more informed about herpes and what's good for a herpes kitty than the vet.

The l-arginine found in foods with grains is the amino acid that helps the herpes virus replicate. L-lysine is the thing that interferes with the arginine's replication powers. We shouldn't completely eliminate arginine from a cat's diet because they do NEED it, but drastically reducing the intake helps cut down on the number of herpes flare ups.

I'm looking for the link, but I can't find it at the moment.

sharky · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by stephanietx

I just had to explain this to the VET this afternoon when I asked if the treat they wanted to give Hannah contained grain! It's frustrating being more informed about herpes and what's good for a herpes kitty than the vet.

The l-arginine found in foods with grains is the amino acid that helps the herpes virus replicate. L-lysine is the thing that interferes with the arginine's replication powers. We shouldn't completely eliminate arginine from a cat's diet because they do NEED it, but drastically reducing the intake helps cut down on the number of herpes flare ups.

I'm looking for the link, but I can't find it at the moment.

Finding loads of info about humans

,...

here is a link to grains highest in lysine which negates the arginine

https://www.usaemergencysupply.com/i...s_amaranth.htm

real basic info also human
http://www.springboard4health.com/no..._arginine.html

sharky · Jan 7, 2010

Long but interesting...
http://www.innvista.com/health/nutri...o/arginine.htm

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/...h_herpes/41149

auntie crazy · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by stephanietx

The l-arginine found in foods with grains is the amino acid that helps the herpes virus replicate. L-lysine is the thing that interferes with the arginine's replication powers. We shouldn't completely eliminate arginine from a cat's diet because they do NEED it, but drastically reducing the intake helps cut down on the number of herpes flare ups.

I'm looking for the link, but I can't find it at the moment.

No worries, this is exactly what I was looking for. Interesting that, as ubiquitous as the Feline Herpes Virus is, this isn't more common knowledge. Everyone who's cat has regular flare ups should have received a warning from their vets about feeding grains. I know they don't get any nutritional training, but this is a virus and falls totally under their purview. *shakes head*

If arginine is something cats need, it's already (hopefully) in canned foods and, for sure, in raw foods.

Why Wet Food and Why Grain Free Dry?

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