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Who is happy with Obama? - Page 4

post #91 of 119
2/2/10 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogs View Post
Hooey! Hardship doesn't make you a better person, it brings out what's already there. I've met people who were cancer patients, amputees, quadriplegics, etc who have suffered things I can't even imagine. I've asked myself how they do it, and the only answer I can come up with is, "Because they have to." That generation had a lot of bad things thrown at them and they did amazing things to get through them because they had to. Ironically, most of the WWII veterans I've talked to came back from the war with the attitude that "I'm going to make sure my kids have it better than I did." Guess what? They did.

Adversity builds character, fact of life.
And yes WWII vets DID come back with that attitude. And their children DID have it better than them and many grew up selfish, self absorbed and feeling entitled. You have to have adversity to make you appreciate the good times, fact of life IMO.



So, what's another trillion a year as long as it's for something you want, huh?

As for the poor, they're definitely worse off than they were 30 years ago. 21 years of Republican administrations have seen to that. I'm not sure who you think has been throwing money at them, though. Bill Clinton maybe, but he actually balanced the budget by the end of his term. The rich, on the other hand, are booming. I think the top 1% controls a larger percentage of the total monetary supply than they ever have. I guess all those tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations haven't trickled down like they were supposed to.

Hand outs never work, a hand up is much better. Of course it is all the Republican's fault, everything is you know.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/taxcuts2.html
Quote:
Tax-raising States vs. Tax-cutting States
In this study we contrast the economic and fiscal performance of the top 10 tax-raising states in the 1990s with that of the top 10 tax-cutting states. (We exclude Alaska from the study because of peculiarities in its revenue sources.) Major findings, as summarized in Table 1, include the following:

Budget Reserves: The budget reserves of the tax-cutting states (7.1 percent of state expenditures) were much higher than of the states that had raised taxes (1.7 percent) (see Figure 1). That is, tax-cutting states are in better fiscal health this year than tax-increasing states.

Bond Ratings: If tax cuts contribute to fiscal deterioration, then the bond ratings of the 10 states that cut taxes the most in the 1990s should be worse than those of the 10 states that raised taxes. Just the opposite is true. In the tax-cutting states, the average Moody's bond rating in 1995 was between Aaa and Aa. In the tax-raising states, the average Moody's bond rating was between Aa and A1.
Those tax hikes really help, don't they?



So, we're going to make them earn their education by paying about $100K a year train and equip them in a military in numbers far larger than we will ever possibly need (nuclear weapons saw to that)? How about we use something like academic aptitude that's a better predictor of future performance to "separate the wheat from the chaff" rather than the ability to pass PT tests and listen to a DI scream in their ear for an hour without punching him? At least it's an egalitarian proposal, heck downright socialist in fact. I'll give you that much, but not much more.

Serve your country, if a person can't handle the military I am sure there is something else they could do, "serve" is the operative word along with "earn."



OK, I have my answer.



Free public education was vehemently opposed too, especially in the South. Most of those parents wanted their kids to go get a job in the factory and start earning money when they were 14. In other words, they want to get a fancy high school education, they need to grow up and earn it. Sound familiar?



Yep, studying hard and getting good grades is a choice made. It indicates that (in general) they chose not to go party with their friends all the time, or to commit a major crime, or to get (someone) pregnant, or get hooked on drugs. Those are the kind of decisions we expect adults to make. And as a reward, under your proposal, they get to go join the military just like the kid next door who flunked out of 10th grade and smokes pot every day. Wow, I can't imagine anything that would discourage a kid from working hard in school more than that.



So, are you a big fan of the estate tax? I think it should be 100% so that all those ungrateful worms have to earn their money. Don't you? No more living off of daddy's money. That'll teach them self esteem!

I'm just sorry that you don't realize that studying hard and getting good grades is something you can be proud of. Apparently they hand out 4.0's on a silver platter. If I had known that, I would have had a LOT more fun in high school.
Does your employer pay you in advance? Just wondering.
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post #92 of 119
2/2/10 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats View Post
WOW you don't know how many times I while reading this thread!



This quote here made me and it really made reading this thread worthwhile. Fantastic response.



The second standout quote for me. That makes me sick about having to "serve your country" - the military/war etc makes me sick and IMO there is NEVER an excuse for war.

I'll be 20 in March and I'm just completing the final year of my Bachelor's degree. I have worked 25 hours a week while studying but this doesn't cover any of my course fees. I have a student loan, luckily in NZ anybody can get a student loan and they are interest free. You can only borrow a certain amount. There is just NO way I could do more hours per week and I earn $10.39 an hour after tax so do the math - that wouldn't even pay the rent for a house, but luckily I still live at home.

Ahhh I think back to 45-50 years ago when my Nana went to University and got her Diploma for free....

Those were the days, right?
Regarding the bolded portion above.

I'm sure glad that the United States did not feel as you do. We might have left you to fend for yourself in the Pacific theater of WWII and you would be speaking Japanese right now.

It is sad when youth of today, who really have no experience whatsoever, feel it necessary to denigrate and diminish the sacrifices of the men and women that served their country, who fought and died to preserve the freedom that WE enjoy so some can come post on a message board and insult them.
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post #93 of 119
2/2/10 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogs View Post
Why should kids under 18 get free education? That's not guaranteed in the constitution either. Why should the taxpayers have to pay to send those kids to school?
An educated populace is in the best interests of any country that intends to have an economy based on exporting high tech goods. If you have diamonds, oil or bananas, you can get along with an illiterate population that is incapable of making change from a bill of their local currency. If on the other hand you intend to sell cars, power plants, cell phones, televisions etc., you better educate people to the point where they understand the rudiments of their own language and the basics of mathematics. Heck in the US there are so many people incapable of understanding nuclear power, energy efficiency, global warming, finances, pharmaceuticals etc it is downright scary. I'll gladly help foot the bill to educate "other peoples' kids." The alternative is we can all have tomatoes and chickens in our yards for food and an economy based on welfare and yard sales.
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post #94 of 119
2/2/10 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
An educated populace is in the best interests of any country that intends to have an economy based on exporting high tech goods. If you have diamonds, oil or bananas, you can get along with an illiterate population that is incapable of making change from a bill of their local currency. If on the other hand you intend to sell cars, power plants, cell phones, televisions etc., you better educate people to the point where they understand the rudiments of their own language and the basics of mathematics. Heck in the US there are so many people incapable of understanding nuclear power, energy efficiency, global warming, finances, pharmaceuticals etc it is downright scary. I'll gladly help foot the bill to educate "other peoples' kids." The alternative is we can all have tomatoes and chickens in our yards for food and an economy based on welfare and yard sales.
And Lotteries...don't forget the "Powerball Retirement Plan".
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post #95 of 119
2/2/10 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Does your employer pay you in advance? Just wondering.
I get all my benefits in advance, including vacation, and deduct them when used throughout the year.
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post #96 of 119
2/2/10 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Adversity builds character, fact of life.
And yes WWII vets DID come back with that attitude. And their children DID have it better than them and many grew up selfish, self absorbed and feeling entitled. You have to have adversity to make you appreciate the good times, fact of life IMO.
I met an officer once who told me about a time when he was a young lieutenant and he was getting ready for Ranger School. For those who don't know, Ranger School is one of the most intense schools in the Army. It's basically 8 weeks of field exercises in woods and swamps getting little food and even less sleep. During the Winter phase, they freeze their butts off and I met several guys who lost toes and fingers to frostbite doing that school.

So the young lieutenant, getting ready for Winter Ranger School, decided to start preparing himself by riding his motorcycle to work every morning during the Winter while wearing only a T-shirt. When he would arrive at his company headquarters he would be blue and shivering uncontrollably. After a few days of that, his company commander (a Ranger School graduate himself) took him aside and said, "Bob, that's the stupidest thing I've ever seen. You don't have to practice being miserable. Misery will find you on it's own. You're going to be freezing your rear off soon enough at Ranger School, so enjoy being warm while you can."

Misery will find us all eventually. And we'll either deal with it or we won't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Hand outs never work, a hand up is much better.
Exactly! Most college graduates don't usually live off the government teat for the rest of their lives. They go out and get a high paying job and pay taxes on their salaries. So the government gives them a hand-up by helping them to get through college (if they show merit) they become more productive citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Of course it is all the Republican's fault, everything is you know.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/taxcuts2.html

...

Those tax hikes really help, don't they?
Two things:

1. They don't really show causation, just correlation. It seems entirely possible that the chain of events went: economy tanked -> jobs lost -> taxes raised to make ends meet rather than what they're proposing, which is taxes raised -> jobs lost -> economy tanked. After all, we had 2 big tax cuts in the Bush years and our national economy tanked.

2. The context of the article is rather hilarious considering Bill Clinton did, in fact, balance the budget.

Quote:
September 17, 1996

...

The advisability of Bob Dole's 15 percent across-the-board federal income tax cut has been challenged in two ways. First, the White House and other skeptics have argued that the tax cut will preclude balancing the budget, and will even make the budget deficit worse. Second, many Washington economists question whether tax cuts will stimulate the economy or produce higher incomes, as supply-side advocates predict.
FTR, I even voted for Bob Dole, but that doesn't mean that I believe he was right looking back at it now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Serve your country, if a person can't handle the military I am sure there is something else they could do, "serve" is the operative word along with "earn."
Volunteerism is great. I think everyone should try to give back to their community. But trying to force people to do service just results in crappy, resentful "volunteers", soldiers, etc that are worse than not having them at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Does your employer pay you in advance? Just wondering.
Salary - no. Education - yes. They hope that they'll get a better educated and thus more valuable employee down the road, so they're willing to make that investment.
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post #97 of 119
2/2/10 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Regarding the bolded portion above.

I'm sure glad that the United States did not feel as you do. We might have left you to fend for yourself in the Pacific theater of WWII and you would be speaking Japanese right now.

It is sad when youth of today, who really have no experience whatsoever, feel it necessary to denigrate and diminish the sacrifices of the men and women that served their country, who fought and died to preserve the freedom that WE enjoy so some can come post on a message board and insult them.
FTR, let me just say that Cindy and I are at least fundamentally in agreement on the necessity of the military. In an ideal world there would never be war and we could talk things out, but in the real world some people only understand force. You have to decide whether to give the school bully your lunch money or punch him in the nose. I'm pretty sure we disagree on the size of the military, but that's another story.

I also think that serving in the military is an honorable profession. Most of the guys and girls go in with the idea that they're going to help out their country. Yeah, I've met some "I'm gonna get to kill me some towel-heads!" types in my day, but I like to think they're very rare.

However, the military is a tool. You can use a hammer to build a house or you can use it to beat somebody to death. Unfortunately, the hand holding the hammer isn't quite so noble. I feel like we've been beating a lot more people over the head lately than we should have. It's important to recognize the difference between the hand holding the hammer and the hammer itself. I think far too many people conflate the two and direct their anger in the wrong place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
An educated populace is in the best interests of any country that intends to have an economy based on exporting high tech goods. If you have diamonds, oil or bananas, you can get along with an illiterate population that is incapable of making change from a bill of their local currency. If on the other hand you intend to sell cars, power plants, cell phones, televisions etc., you better educate people to the point where they understand the rudiments of their own language and the basics of mathematics. Heck in the US there are so many people incapable of understanding nuclear power, energy efficiency, global warming, finances, pharmaceuticals etc it is downright scary. I'll gladly help foot the bill to educate "other peoples' kids." The alternative is we can all have tomatoes and chickens in our yards for food and an economy based on welfare and yard sales.
Thanks, I think you explained that a bit more eloquently than I could. I would argue that we've established an arbitrary age (18) where education magically shifts from "urgent national priority" to "get a job and do it yourself". That age isn't set down anywhere in the Constitution other than the 26th, which just deals with voting rights.
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post #98 of 119
2/2/10 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
An educated populace is in the best interests of any country that intends to have an economy based on exporting high tech goods. If you have diamonds, oil or bananas, you can get along with an illiterate population that is incapable of making change from a bill of their local currency. If on the other hand you intend to sell cars, power plants, cell phones, televisions etc., you better educate people to the point where they understand the rudiments of their own language and the basics of mathematics. Heck in the US there are so many people incapable of understanding nuclear power, energy efficiency, global warming, finances, pharmaceuticals etc it is downright scary. I'll gladly help foot the bill to educate "other peoples' kids." The alternative is we can all have tomatoes and chickens in our yards for food and an economy based on welfare and yard sales.

Thank you. That was exactly the point I was trying to make in my previous post.
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post #99 of 119
2/2/10 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
An educated populace is in the best interests of any country that intends to have an economy based on exporting high tech goods. If you have diamonds, oil or bananas, you can get along with an illiterate population that is incapable of making change from a bill of their local currency. If on the other hand you intend to sell cars, power plants, cell phones, televisions etc., you better educate people to the point where they understand the rudiments of their own language and the basics of mathematics. Heck in the US there are so many people incapable of understanding nuclear power, energy efficiency, global warming, finances, pharmaceuticals etc it is downright scary. I'll gladly help foot the bill to educate "other peoples' kids." The alternative is we can all have tomatoes and chickens in our yards for food and an economy based on welfare and yard sales.
I already do 2dogmom, I pay my property taxes.
I am being taxed enough, thank you.

And for anyone else out there that feels taxes should be raised further, feel free to send your check to the Internal Revenue Service.
Don't forget to note in the Memo box: Free college for everyone
so they know where to put the $$$
I'm sure they will not refuse your check.
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post #100 of 119
2/2/10 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogs View Post
FTR, let me just say that Cindy and I are at least fundamentally in agreement on the necessity of the military. In an ideal world there would never be war and we could talk things out, but in the real world some people only understand force. You have to decide whether to give the school bully your lunch money or punch him in the nose. I'm pretty sure we disagree on the size of the military, but that's another story.

I also think that serving in the military is an honorable profession. Most of the guys and girls go in with the idea that they're going to help out their country. Yeah, I've met some "I'm gonna get to kill me some towel-heads!" types in my day, but I like to think they're very rare.

However, the military is a tool. You can use a hammer to build a house or you can use it to beat somebody to death. Unfortunately, the hand holding the hammer isn't quite so noble. I feel like we've been beating a lot more people over the head lately than we should have. It's important to recognize the difference between the hand holding the hammer and the hammer itself. I think far too many people conflate the two and direct their anger in the wrong place.
Common Ground! That is a good thing. I agree with your entire post.
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post #101 of 119
2/2/10 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogs
FTR, let me just say that Cindy and I are at least fundamentally in agreement on the necessity of the military. In an ideal world there would never be war and we could talk things out, but in the real world some people only understand force. You have to decide whether to give the school bully your lunch money or punch him in the nose. I'm pretty sure we disagree on the size of the military, but that's another story.

I also think that serving in the military is an honorable profession. Most of the guys and girls go in with the idea that they're going to help out their country. Yeah, I've met some "I'm gonna get to kill me some towel-heads!" types in my day, but I like to think they're very rare.

However, the military is a tool. You can use a hammer to build a house or you can use it to beat somebody to death. Unfortunately, the hand holding the hammer isn't quite so noble. I feel like we've been beating a lot more people over the head lately than we should have. It's important to recognize the difference between the hand holding the hammer and the hammer itself. I think far too many people conflate the two and direct their anger in the wrong place.
Great post, and I agree 100%. Being a veteran I also don't think a draft is necessary, I much prefer the all-volunteer, professional force we have had in place since 1973. I love the military, it's the hands that wield that the hammer that I have no respect or faith in.
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post #102 of 119
2/2/10 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
[The second standout quote for me. That makes me sick about having to "serve your country" - the military/war etc makes me sick and IMO there is NEVER an excuse for war. ]

Regarding the bolded portion above.

I'm sure glad that the United States did not feel as you do. We might have left you to fend for yourself in the Pacific theater of WWII and you would be speaking Japanese right now.

It is sad when youth of today, who really have no experience whatsoever, feel it necessary to denigrate and diminish the sacrifices of the men and women that served their country, who fought and died to preserve the freedom that WE enjoy so some can come post on a message board and insult them.
I agree with Sam completely, I actually think a draft would be against American values of religious tolerance. It may be against some people's religion to kill, even if it is an order during war, for example Buddhism..

Don't get me wrong, of course I respect people in the military very highly. I think they have amazing character.

You would think us intelligent human beings would learn from the past and settle things in a more diplomatic way, and we wouldn't have wars anymore
Speaking of higher taxes, one place I don't want tax money going is to expand the military- I don't think the fact that the US has so many military bases all over the world and the largest military is helping bring more peace to the world..Throughout the history of US military interventions in other countries, there are far more examples where things have been made worse than better.
I'd much rather have resources allocated towards education
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post #103 of 119
2/2/10 at 1:19pm
Why do I feel like I'm in the wrong thread?

I still want to give Obama a chance. I think it is way too early to tell how this will shake out.

Also, it seems like the people who dislike Obama are screaming the loudest. Sometimes I feel there is absolute hatred for the man.

There might even be more of us who like him or at least feel that he deserves a chance. I wish there were a poll attached to this thread.
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post #104 of 119
2/2/10 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by utOpia
I agree with Sam completely, I actually think a draft would be against American values of religious tolerance. It may be against some people's religion to kill, even if it is an order during war, for example Buddhism..
That is why there is a conscientious objector status.

The US doesn't have the largest military in the world. When you take into account active, reserve, and paramilitary numbers the US has the sixth largest. China is the only country with a larger active duty base than the US, but we maintain a larger reserve (which is similar in number to active duty strength).

As far as human beings are concerned I think the only constant change has been in the form of technology. I don't believe human nature has changed all that much.

The US gets bashed a lot for past and current events but I don't believe that our history going back to the colonial period is all that different (no better, no worse) than that of countries in Europe, the Middle East, and elsewhere in the world.
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post #105 of 119
2/2/10 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Regarding the bolded portion above.

I'm sure glad that the United States did not feel as you do. We might have left you to fend for yourself in the Pacific theater of WWII and you would be speaking Japanese right now.

It is sad when youth of today, who really have no experience whatsoever, feel it necessary to denigrate and diminish the sacrifices of the men and women that served their country, who fought and died to preserve the freedom that WE enjoy so some can come post on a message board and insult them.
I totally agree. I recently heard a person say if he had been drafted in the 60's he would have gone to Canada. How unpatriotic is that.

Nobody likes war. It is necessary. I feel that if George Bush had ignored the 911 attack on this country we would still have been fighting war. The difference is it would have been on the streets of America. Freedom is not free. Men and women have always had to die for it from the American Revolution until now.

I believe that what makes our Military so great is it is made up of volunteers, all volunteers. They are men and women who know the consequences and are willing to do whatever is necessary to protect our rights and freedoms. GOD BLESS AMERICA AND GOD BLESS ALL THE MEN AND WOMEN IN OUR ARMED FORCES. I LOVE EVERYONE OF YOU AND I PRAY OFTEN AND ASK GOD TO WATCH OVER YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES. THANK YOU FOR BEING WILLING TO SERVE THE USA
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post #106 of 119
2/2/10 at 1:42pm
[quote=Yosemite;2813823]I think that turning a deaf ear to people who expect miracles is a good thing. As far as I know there are no humans that can perform miracles.

And yes, each President inherits the bad decisions of previous administrations but George junior made more bad decisions than most others IMO.

People forget George had a Democratic Congress who helped him.
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post #107 of 119
2/2/10 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essayons89 View Post
That is why there is a conscientious objector status.

The US doesn't have the largest military in the world. When you take into account active, reserve, and paramilitary numbers the US has the sixth largest. China is the only country with a larger active duty base than the US, but we maintain a larger reserve (which is similar in number to active duty strength).

As far as human beings are concerned I think the only constant change has been in the form of technology. I don't believe human nature has changed all that much.

The US gets bashed a lot for past and current events but I don't believe that our history going back to the colonial period is all that different (no better, no worse) than that of countries in Europe, the Middle East, and elsewhere in the world.
I didn't know someone could claim consciencous objector status if there is a draft...how come people have dodged the draft and went to Canada if they could have just claimed that instead??

The US still has the most military bases in foreign countries..
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post #108 of 119
2/2/10 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
I didn't know someone could claim consciencous objector status if there is a draft...how come people have dodged the draft and went to Canada if they could have just claimed that instead??

The US still has the most military bases in foreign countries..
Because conscientious objectors are not kept out of combat zones due to their status. They are just put in non-combat roles. A conscientious objector can still drive a field ambulance in combat zones, can cook in "tent city" chow halls near the front lines, etc. Those that went to Canada weren't objecting to fighting...they were just too cowardly to go at all.
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post #109 of 119
2/2/10 at 6:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
I agree with Sam completely, I actually think a draft would be against American values of religious tolerance. It may be against some people's religion to kill, even if it is an order during war, for example Buddhism..

Don't get me wrong, of course I respect people in the military very highly. I think they have amazing character.

You do? She said that the military makes her "sick." I, personally, find that a pretty offensive insult to the people that fight and die for her freedom.

You would think us intelligent human beings would learn from the past and settle things in a more diplomatic way, and we wouldn't have wars anymore

Ahhh ut0pia, the fact is, human are only a few meals away from savages.

Speaking of higher taxes, one place I don't want tax money going is to expand the military- I don't think the fact that the US has so many military bases all over the world and the largest military is helping bring more peace to the world..Throughout the history of US military interventions in other countries, there are far more examples where things have been made worse than better.
I'd much rather have resources allocated towards education
Why do you think the United States Government has military bases on foreign soil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat View Post
Why do I feel like I'm in the wrong thread?

I still want to give Obama a chance. I think it is way too early to tell how this will shake out.

Also, it seems like the people who dislike Obama are screaming the loudest. Sometimes I feel there is absolute hatred for the man.

I have no hate in my heart for Barack Obama or anyone else on this planet for that matter. I vehemently disagree with Barack's policy, but disagreement is a far cry from hate.

There might even be more of us who like him or at least feel that he deserves a chance. I wish there were a poll attached to this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
I didn't know someone could claim consciencous objector status if there is a draft...how come people have dodged the draft and went to Canada if they could have just claimed that instead??

Why ut0pia I can't believe they never taught you about conscientious objectors in school. Have you not heard of the most famous American conscientious objector of the Viet Nam War?

Do you know who Muhammad Ali is? The Greatest Boxer of All Times. He was an actual conscientious objector. He was convicted of Draft Evasion in 1967 and stripped of his title of Heavyweight Champion of the World. He lost 3-1/2 years of his prime, fighting that conviction. He took it all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States. His conviction was overturned by a unanimous decision in 1971. White people hated his guts because he would not go to Viet Nam, oh and the fact that he was Muslim didn't help.
I love Ali, he walked the walk.

The people that ran to Canada were not actual conscientious objectors, back then we called them cowards. Looking back, I would not call them that. Someone I knew really well shot himself in the foot to get out of Viet Nam. Two other friends did their time there, came home and ended up putting a shot gun in their mouth and blowing their brains out. In retrospect, not all can take combat, but they can serve their country in other ways.

The US still has the most military bases in foreign countries..
So? And who does the world come to when help is required? (Remember the invasion of Kuwait?)
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post #110 of 119
2/2/10 at 6:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
I didn't know someone could claim consciencous objector status if there is a draft...how come people have dodged the draft and went to Canada if they could have just claimed that instead??

The US still has the most military bases in foreign countries..
I was referring more towards the "current" incarnation of the military and selective service. To be a conscientious objector a person has to meet two main criteria: 1) Opposed to war in any form (in other words the person claiming objector status can't pick and choose which war to fight based on whether or not he feels the war is "just": and 2) The objection must be sincere.

Religious belief is no longer a criteria even though it can still be used to claim objector status. Mike also mentioned that conscientious objectors can still serve in a non-combat capacity if they choose to do so.
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post #111 of 119
2/2/10 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Why do you think the United States Government has military bases on foreign soil?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Do you know who Muhammad Ali is? The Greatest Boxer of All Times. He was an actual conscientious objector. He was convicted of Draft Evasion in 1967 and stripped of his title of Heavyweight Champion of the World. He lost 3-1/2 years of his prime, fighting that conviction. He took it all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States. His conviction was overturned by a unanimous decision in 1971. White people hated his guts because he would not go to Viet Nam, oh and the fact that he was Muslim didn't help.
I love Ali, he walked the walk.

He shouldn't have had to spend all that time in prison, and I understand you admire the fact that he stuck to his guns, but the reaction to his case I have is more that of anger that he had to go through all of that....

Why was he convicted in the first place? His story just shows that claiming to be a conscientious objector could open up a big can of worms in your life..
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post #112 of 119
2/2/10 at 6:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
He shouldn't have had to spend all that time in prison, and I understand you admire the fact that he stuck to his guns, but the reaction to his case I have is more that of anger that he had to go through all of that....

Why was he convicted in the first place? His story just shows that claiming to be a conscientious objector could open up a big can of worms in your life..
Muhammad Ali never spent a day in prison.

He was convicted because he refused induction into the military.
It was a bad deal.
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post #113 of 119
2/2/10 at 6:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Why do you think the United States Government has military bases on foreign soil?
Well of course there are many reasons that we're told like combating terrorism and ensuring our domestic security ..but mainly IMO, the top reason for bases in the Middle East before the war in Iraq was oil, securing our access to it..
There are many reasons not to have so many bases, like it is argued that foreign bases undermine these nations' sovereignty and it has been known, sadly that US troops do not always respect the laws and human rights of people whose country they are in. And not to mention how many times the US has supported the wrong group, the group that ended up being even more repressive and violent than the one they threw out of office...
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post #114 of 119
2/2/10 at 7:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ut0pia View Post
Well of course there are many reasons that we're told like combating terrorism and ensuring our domestic security ..but mainly IMO, the top reason for bases in the Middle East before the war in Iraq was oil, securing our access to it..
There are many reasons not to have so many bases, like it is argued that foreign bases undermine these nations' sovereignty and it has been known, sadly that US troops do not always respect the laws and human rights of people whose country they are in. And not to mention how many times the US has supported the wrong group, the group that ended up being even more repressive and violent than the one they threw out of office...
I don't think the United States has any military bases in the Middle East, not counting Iraq and Afghanistand which will not be permanent. I believe the vast majority of military deployed overseas are at the foreign country's invitation. With the exception of Iraq and Afghanistan and Cuba. IMO, it is Cuba's and Afghanistan's own fault we are there.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deploym...ry#Middle_East
Quote:
Middle East
Not counting Iraq and Afghanistan, there at least 2,500 US military personnel in the Middle East.

Qatar – 411 [2]
Bahrain – 1,495 [2]
Kuwait - 10
Oman - 36 [2]
United Arab Emirates - 96 [2]
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post #115 of 119
2/2/10 at 7:13pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...military_bases

Dang, we are BAD, aren't we? Hoo Rah! Semper Fi.
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post #116 of 119
2/2/10 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...military_bases

Dang, we are BAD, aren't we? Hoo Rah! Semper Fi.
Hey...there are LOTS more bases in Japan than shows on that list. Camp Butler, OAD Honoko, Camp Schwab, Naha port, Misawa AB...and that's just the one's I've been to.
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post #117 of 119
2/2/10 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Hey...there are LOTS more bases in Japan than shows on that list. Camp Butler, OAD Honoko, Camp Schwab, Naha port, Misawa AB...and that's just the one's I've been to.
I think they are listed by branch of service. To tell you the truth I didn't realize we had so many bases all over the world.
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post #118 of 119
2/2/10 at 7:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I think they are listed by branch of service. To tell you the truth I didn't realize we had so many bases all over the world.
A lot of them can be misleading too. Like on Okinawa, we have several LORAN stations. A LORAN is just a long-range Navigation station. It has a huge transmitter that does nothing but transmit a navigation beacon for aircraft and ships to lock on to. But, they ARE military installations, so they count. And Honoko is actually just an ammo dump that falls under Camp Schwab, but it's in a removed location, so it counts. And so on, and so forth.
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post #119 of 119
2/3/10 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I have no hate in my heart for Barack Obama or anyone else on this planet for that matter. I vehemently disagree with Barack's policy, but disagreement is a far cry from hate.
I wasn't accusing anyone in particular, and I know you are a Christian and don't expect you to hate anyone, but I have seen a lot of hate. --- not just here. It makes me sad.
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