Would you keep a cat if...

Do you realize that this is the utmost demonstration trust that a cat can give you? I guess not, right? It is very loving too, he is asking for a skritch, in the most vulnerable position he could be in, showing you that he trust you completely, and that he knows that you would never hurt him. That is NOT being submissive.

To answer your your question, absolutely yes, I would keep a kitty, the only difference is that I can not even begin to imagine not being attached to them after such a long time.

Keke, cats do things in strange ways... in their own terms... None of my cats are lap cats... two of them will run when I approach them. They will come to me when they want to. That is just who they are... The one who runs away the most sleeps with me every night... When I am sitting down, or laying down, and he sees I am not a threat, that is when he will flop and turn belly up for skritches.
But they are always around me. I don't know what the story of your cat is, and what you heard about flopping belly up - but believe me when I say - you should feel honored instead of annoyed. He is telling you that he trust you completely and he loves you. That is what it means in cat's language.

Tell us more about your kitties, so that we can understand what it is going on, and maybe we can help you? Many of us, including me had Strays ferals and shy cats, so we might be able to help you...

As far as the peeing goes -
The number one reason for peeing outside of the litterbox is Urinary Tract Infection - has he been seen by a vet?
Also, what litter are you using?
How many litter boxes do you have, for how many cats?
How are you cleaning the pee spots?
Have you tried Kitten Attract Litter? or Cat Attract Litter?

How long ago was she seen? Might be time for a second opinion.
How big are the litterboxes, how often do you clean them where are they located? Are they open or covered?
Also, how are you cleaning the pee spots?

ETA:

Can you add a litter box? Make it 3 boxes for 2 cats?

I've never met a cat who didn't want to explore an open closet or cupboard, or didn't jump on a table or bench.

I suggest you stop walking fast towards her, sounds like its making her afraid of you.

I can't imagine not being attached to a cat that I've brought into my family, even on the very beginning level - no matter what their difficulties might be - once they are in my family - it's for better or worse .

My heart goes out to your little lost soul that really sounds like she needs a lot of loving - but, instead might be getting a lot of negative vibes???

She might do better in another family - you sound too frustrated to help her - she really deserves a happy life - all cats do, and she's no exception, I'm sure, and so do you.

What sort of "discipline" do you use?

I agree with carolinalima about the UTI thing - or maybe she is just so stressed out that she pees on the floor?

Cats are so different, just like humans in their individualities. I have one that thinks he should be carried, or cuddled all the time, another male that is just beginning to do more cuddling after almost 3 years, and his sister who is just a little stinker and runs about every time I try to pick her up to cuddle. (She's a calico, and such a girlie girl.)

I'm really sorry, I really don't mean to come down on you, or your care of her - but your post sounds like you are unable to cope with some things, and maybe she's just expressing, or mirroring, what ever feelings she's getting from you - cats are smart that way.

I hope you find a solution soon.

Oh dear, your kitty sounds like she is asking for positive attention. Showing the belly, that is what we all strive for! When we tame down a feral cat, that is the definitive sign of success..trust.

I agree that another vet opinion is needed. There are so many reasons a cat chooses not to use a certain box as has been stated. Is litter too scented?''

All the cats that have found their way into my life have been cherrished. Whether they are affectionate or not. Whether they have problems or not. Kittens aren't interested in whether you exist or not for a while. Life is too interesting and everything is a potential toy. I would just smile and realize that this does not last forever and enjoy their playfull nature while you can. Kittens are totally self absorbed! Not a bad thing.

Other than the litter issue, your kitten sounds perfectly normal and is trying to form a bond with you. Please meet her halfway.

I was wondering also if maybe the cat is scared? Showing his belly to you is not only a sign of trust in most cats but also a sign of submission although they exhibit it in submission more towards other cats, its true. If this is happening most often when those "discipline times" come up than this cat is obviously cowering in front of you. I've seen my cats do this with one another, showing their belly as showing that the other is superior to them.

Think about the cats perspective: humans are HUGE compared to them. If he is showing signs of submission to you and peeing around the house he must be scared out of his mind. I think that if you are not bonded with him and cannot care for his pschycological needs than you need to make sure he gets a better home. But please do this with love for him, not out of frustration. Take a breath and really make sure he will find a good home.

I am curious to know how you discipline him?

Showing belly is not a sign of submissiveness. It is a sign of trust. That he runs when you reach for him after showing his belly simply means he doesn't want you to touch it.

From my point of view it sounds like he is disliked. Cats are very sensitive and he will certainly feel it if you don't like him.

Getting into closets is not "bad" behavior it is normal cat behavior.

I am usually skeptical when I hear "we've tried everything". Has this cat had a urinalysis done recently? If not that is the first thing to do. The urine should be sent to a lab to be evaluated for crystals, stones and bacteria.

A couple more litter boxes should be added.

All scent must be removed from spots where he has peed or he will continue to pee there. You need an enzymatic cleaner for that. A cleaner with enzymes that break down the bacteria in the urine. Even if you can't still smell it, he will.

What is this cat's history? Is your house noisy and busy? Maybe he has a temperament that needs a quieter life.

It sounds to me that this kitty is very much afraid and stressed out.

Firstly, discipline in any form does not work with cats. Deterrents yes, discipline no. Discipline will only serve to make your cat afraid of you and the only thing they learn is to not do said activity while you are around. For example, if you walk very fast and yell at the cat when she jumps on the counter it just means that to her you are scaring her and that you could mean her harm. Yes, you see the immediate result of her jumping down, but that does not mean that she realizes that she is not allowed up there, she just realizes that she needs to get away from you. It also drives home to her that you are scary whenever your are walking towards her, even when you just want to pet her.

Better ways of keeping your cat off of things that you don't want them on is to make it so that it's not a fun experience. We have Pepsi cans filled with coins just for such occasions. Our new kitten loves trying to jump up on the counters. He does not like jumping up on the counters and then smacking into loud clanging cans. He is learning that when he jumps up on counters he gets scared... of the counters... not me.

Discipline that is directed from you only results in the kitty being afraid of you.

As for peeing outside the box, there are usually only three things that cause this, health issues, stress, or they can still smell a marked spot. Health issues should always be ruled out first, but it sounds in your case that it's not really a health issue and its coming from stress. If you want the inappropriate peeing to stop you need remove the stress from your kitty's life.

So it sounds to me like you have a few choices to make, either to give her to a home that will be patient and work with her, or for you yourself to be patient and work with her.

If you choose to work with her, you need to start mending fences right away. Give her space and learn what her boundaries are right now. If she rolls over to show her belly but she doesn't want you to touch it... then don't touch it. Try to scritch her on the head instead. If you are walking towards her and she positions herself to run or her ears go back, stop walking towards her. Treats also go a long way with making friends. If she associates you with good things, then she will eventually see you as a good thing.

As for the peeing, get yourself a good enzyme cleaner and a good black light and start searching. Clean every spot you find with the black light and make trouble spots inaccessible to her. While it sounds like stress is causing her to pee outside the box, it can very easily turn into a habit that won't be easy to break. It takes patience but with the right tools you can get her going in the box again.

And start researching the tons of ways to deter cats from doing the things you don't want them to do without making you the bad guy. Also keep in mind that training a cat to leave stuff alone or not go in certain areas is a lesson in patience. They will absolutely not figure it out overnight... or even a week. Cat's love to push the boundaries. Just when you think they will never jump on a counter again in their life... you walk into the kitchen and there is a fuzzy butt planted on your clean counter. But that is sort of the charm of a cat i suppose

I am interested to know why you have not tried Feliway? That is one of the recommended treatments for stress and inappropriate elimination, are you opposed to it for some reason?

I have had a troubled kitty before and completely understand your frustration, but I also agree with the other posters that kitty may be picking up on your stress.

This is the one that stuck out to me since we ran into this with Cotton when he first came home - turns out he just needed a bigger box.

I know others have said it, but it does sound like kitty wants to trust you very much. At this point, I think it will just take patience for you and kitty to sort out your living arrangements. And just remember that cats are cats. Some of them will never be cuddly lap cats. It doesn't mean they love you any less, it's just not their thing.

Is she spayed?

I care for a lot of cats, all of which were homeless and feral when I found them. Half of them run from anyone but me and all of those will run away if I tower over them, or walk with too heavy a step. I love all of them because they are who they are.

Good question! Is she spayed?

Working with ferals, every single one of our kitties was scared of us when first rescued. Personally, I love them all the more because they need it the most, even if they don't realize it yet. (And yes, we had a problem with a kitty peeing outside the box).

Seems to me she is stressed and scared. Also, I'm not so sure the belly up is submission or trust. It is also a very defensive position. Ever watched cats fight or play fight? On the back is a ready-to-defend itself stance, especialy in feral, scared, or under-socialized cats.

What I'd do is get her to a different vet for a second opinion on her bladder health. I'd also schedule an appointment to get her spayed if she's not already.

Then when I brought her home, I'd put her in one room, the way she should have been introduced to your home. She should be confined to one room - a guest bedroom or a large bathroom. Set her up with two litterboxes of different sizes, both not covered. Put her food and water as far away from them as possible. Have the room ready for her, having sprayed it with Feliway - or having gotten a Feliway diffuser. Make sure you follow the instructions, and do NOT get the Feliway anywhere near her litter boxes or scratching post(s).

This gives you time to purchase a black light and a good enzyme cleaner. We had a kitty peeing outside the box, and this was the best one we found: http://www.nokout.com/odorelim/pets/ Because this has been going on for five months, it may take several applications to entirely rid your home of her pee scent. But wait until the area is completely dry before trying again.

In the meantime, spend as much time in the room with her as possible. Read out loud, sing, sew, talk to her, work on a laptop, fold laundry, iron - whatever. Do as much of it down at floor level as possible. Ignore her as much as possible. If you look at her - look at her forehead. Looking at a cat directly in the eyes is a sign of aggression. Only kitties that already trust us understand we're not being aggressive to them when we look at them in the eyes.

Just let her get used to you all over again, and help her understand you're not a threat, and not something scary. Take a nap in there, "look" at her with your eyes closed. Get a t-shirt really sweaty, and leave treats out on it for her. Get another one really sweaty and leave it under her food dish. Help her associate you with good things, with things she loves - while being totally non-threatening.

Perhaps get these CDs and play them for her:
http://www.musicmypet.com
http://www.catfaeries.com/music-for-cats.html

The will help de-stress her.

Don't reach out to pet her. If you're reading out loud or whatever and she comes over - continue to ignore her. Let her investigate you without reaching out to her, without looking at her.

The trust you will build by restarting your relationship will be well worth it.

If you dont' have the time - then consider rehoming her. But bear in mind that an older kitty that is under-socialized and scared of people with a peeing problem will not be easy to place.

Terrific post.

Personally, I think if you aren't attached to the kitty and sounds like not liking her very much either, you would be doing the cat a service to rehome her to someone who would care for the poor little baby the way she deserves.

Sometimes it takes time and patience to win a cat's trust and love, but it's always well worth the effort.

to fix the peeing problem, as soon as he starts to squat (you should know what to look for by now), pick him up (even if he's mid-pee) and put him in the litter box as quickly as possible without scaring him. After that, give him a treat, and try not to take it so personally that he peed on you/the floor/etc. Then go clean up the floor. DO NOT DISCIPLINE HIM FOR PEEING ON THE FLOOR OTHERWISE YOU HAVE SEALED YOUR FATE. I know it can be hard to not discipline him for peeing outside the box, but you have to not discipline him. remember, they don't have near the IQ you do.

I did not read this entire post but the "submissive flopping" sounds like my mother's cat. How much socialization did your cat get as a kitten? did it have littermates? My mom's cat suffers from "single kitten syndrome" being the only kittne born in the litter, and she wasn't handled much as a kitten. Now she does do a submissive flop when you want to pick her up or anything.

it's not the soft stretch pet-me pose. she's half on her side and half curled, ears back, eyes mostly closed and very stiff all over, like she's cringing. Is this the behavior of your cat? My mother's cat has gotten better with time, but will probably never be a social, lovey dovey kitty.

Your cat is young enough that you may still have time to help correct this behavior. Now I'll go back and read the other posts and see if anyone said anything similar.

You make a good point. We all may be picturing something different here, when talking about belly exposure.

A cat that flops on the floor, rolls over, stretches out and shows tum, all in a happy way, is showing love and trust. However, even a pose like that, many cats will jump up if someone tries to reach down for that Yummy Tummy. I call this "Lookee, no touchee!"

What you describe is certainly not the same thing at all, not at all.

Well, if the other cat was so sick (and no doubt you were terribly stressed), this kitty is probably all stressed out as well. I really recommend you get her in for another urine analysis as quickly as possible - the stress alone could have caused an UTI, and it's totally uncomfortable - and dangerous.

You've gotten some wonderful advice - especially regarding cleaning, Cat Attract litter, number of boxes, trying to destress yourself as well - but, this little kitten really sounds like she wants to love you. Cats do have different ways of interacting with their human - my girl hates being picked up, and has never sat on my lap - yet she greets at the door every evening, often demands petting, and is usually in the same room with me. My boy is the 'lap cat' - but honestly, I do think they both love me - and I them.

I 've had litter box issues with my boy, and I know it's frustrating while you're trying to figure out how to resolve it, and believe me, they can pick up your frustration as well. But, it's been totally worthwhile earning my boy's trust and love. Actually, learning to calm myself down was a great lesson for me in general - but I do know how box issues can drive you to tears as well.

Yes I would. I have a cat like this actually. Granted she is eleven years old but I've had her for almost 6 months and she has been this way the whole time. Feliway didn't even fix the problem, and not only does she pee, she SPRAYS. But of course I'm not going to get rid of her. Even if I found a no-kill shelter that would take her (any other shelter would euthanize her before long, I'm sure of it) they would never be able to find her a home, and even if she did get adopted her next owner may not be so understanding and would possibly dump her somewhere or do her harm. Missy and I don't have a very tight bond either but think about it the way I did. Yours is younger than Missy so she would stand a better chance at getting re-homed, but the results are still the same. How could you live with that, if you just gave her up because you didn't want to deal with her only to find out the next person who didn't want to abandoned or mistreated her?

My suggestion: DO try the Feliway. I didn't work for Missy like I said but it made a huge difference in my other cats.

Both. The diffuser alone works great but at first the spray is a big help too. After you clean her pee spots you can spray it there and that can help stop them from going there again. Eventually I stopped using the spray and all but Missy are still doing fine.

Feliway definitely does not work for all cats - but it may help both with her stressing and with the peeing.

Feliway is a synthetic hormone that mimics the "friendly" markers in cats' cheeks. When cats scratch, poop, or pee, they are scent marking - but territory marking. When cats rub their heads and cheeks on something, they're like... "claiming" it.

Cats are all about scent - thus Feliway was actually developed to help with inappropriate peeing problems. That said - there are cats that spray ON the diffusers. But more often than not it does help - and especially to help reduce stress in the environment.

We use the spray, not the diffuser. It's a little more work in that you have to spray it every 3 days. But I like being able to control where I'm placing the scent.

However - a big part of helping Feliway help as a deterrent to kitty peeing in inappropriate places, is getting rid of all the "pee" scent that is around - if you haven't been using an enzyme cleaner. Shampoos, carpet cleaners, or other regular cleaning products that you would normally use to clean up your kitchen floor or whatever will NOT work.

I really, really, really suggest you purchase the Nok Out. The way you use it is basically saturate the affected area, leave it for 15 minutes or so, and then blot it up and let it air dry. You can't cheat and set a space heater near it or use a hair dryer on it - it has to air dry. In the Winter with the dryness, it should only take a day or two. What we do is then just set aluminum foil over the area - both so we remember not to step there, and to help deter kitty from peeing there again while the Nok Out does its work. If, once it's dry, the spot doesn't smell just a tad like chlorine - then you have to do it again.

But buying a black light and going through your home at night to identify all the spots she's used you may have missed (shows up as an orange splotch) and using a good quality enzyme cleaner (Nature's Miracle never worked for us) should go along way to getting all the scents back in the right places.

...and offering her more litter boxes - different types in different places - may also help a lot. You can remove the ones she doesn't really like, but for a while there, when we were going through the same problem, we had about 12 litterboxes around the house (for at the time five cats). FYI, the "rule of thumb" is to have one more litter box than you have cats.

Also, does she like playing? Play is a great way to help cats de-stress.

Do you have any vertical space for her? Cats live in a very 3D world, and having cat furniture often helps just with their general happiness.

Also, we provide "cat TV" for our kitties. We have bird feeders that use suction cups to stick on the windows, and either window perches for the kitties or - in one instance - the back of the couch is right up against the bottom of the window. This is GREAT entertainment for them!

But I'm glad to hear she's coming around - at least on the loving.

If you're still having a problem with the peeing, I think you should consider confining her to one room for "litter box retraining" while you clean up the rest of the house - but only do this if you can spend a good amount of time in there with her. ...but relieving your frustration is important too. We've been there, and it can turn into a cycle of stress.

Hey, KeKe. You have already gotten lots of great advice. I know among the fosters I have some were immediately affectionate, some not. One cat has taken nearly 6 months to truly trust me and seek affection. When I come in through the garage access door - He is there on the table waiting for me. He blinks... I coo at him... and put out a finger to see if he is receptive...sometimes yes... sometimes no. And sometimes he still runs from me... but I see progress. At least--- knock wood -- I haven't had any pee problems in my house.

Here are the links for Feliway, the cheapest place to buy it right now is at Amazon - I advise buying the refill and spray as well; shipping is free for over $25...
When Lucky was having Peeing problems, I would clean the area - by soaking with Anti-icky-poo and then I would spray around it with Feliway - that would keep her from peeing on that area. Anti-icky-poo and Nok Out are, IMO the only good odor removers out there... And you need to use LOTS of it - so I would buy a gallon, not a sprayer... You really need to saturate the area, not just cover it.
Feliway Diffuser
Feliway Refill; 3-pack refill
Feliway Spray

?? Why wouldn't plain old white vinegar do the same job as removing the urine odor?? Just curious.